OT: Corona virus

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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake
Yes, you need the Army but they need to BRING something with them to eat. That is skirting close to a breakdown in social order. If the infrastructure still works the UN brings in bakeries (like they did in Sarjevo).

I just read the news, and the government is doing just that: 400 millions Euro are being set aside to provide food for families everywhere. They devised a scheme that gives more money to the needy (basically, if your family income is lower that the national average you get more money for food).

I can't comment on the numbers. My feeling is that 400 millions Euro is too little - but it is a step in the right direction.

And I still wonder what this will mean for illegal workers. Can they honestly say that they are maintaining a family with - officially - zero or close to zero income?

At least it is a start. Once they get a better idea of how much is needed, then they can provide more money.

As far as the illegal workers go, maybe they will have to start being legal. Maybe going through a temporary agency to get a record of the earnings. Of course, the criminal element will still be criminal. I read about that community north of Naples where the African immigrants are.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by RFalvo69 »

Thomas Schäfer, the finance minister of the German state of Hesse (which includes Frankfurt), took his life. They say that the Coronavirus emergency put a heavy toll on his shoulders.

https://www.dw.com/en/german-state-fina ... a-52948976

Sad news.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Moltrey »

Well, I haven't kept up with the thread here, but things sure are getting serious, eh? Scary.

I did read the first page and Jeff's comment about Wuhan being the Chinese Army Biochem center seemed perhaps a bit of a reach at first thought; however, after thinking about it some more, I am wondering if wasn't a accidental release.
Have to say it is a bit spooky playing The Division 1&2 and living through this Covid 19 pandemic. The particulars about 19 are odd too like Jeff said. Reminds me of The Division and the kook scientist who combined various old viruses to make a superbug, then released it on Black Friday in NYC. Much worse than this Covid 19, but still spooks you to be sure.

I don't know about you guys, but I am a bit lucky to work in the rail industry, we are still working as we are on the "essential" list.
Nice to have a paycheck. I worry that my company doesn't truly understand how devastating just one of us train crew folks being tested positive would be.
Hope I am wrong and don't have to deal with it, but things are looking truly grim when Dr. Fauci is estimating 100k-200k deaths at this point.

Take those precautions fellas, be safe!
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

Thomas Schäfer, the finance minister of the German state of Hesse (which includes Frankfurt), took his life. They say that the Coronavirus emergency put a heavy toll on his shoulders.

https://www.dw.com/en/german-state-fina ... a-52948976

Sad news.

That is sad. Now it leaves a hole for someone to fill. I hope that also sends a message to other politicians that if they are having problems, get help. That goes for everybody else as well.

I have fond memories of Hesse; the people, the food, the scenery, and the bier! But my favorite restaurant was an Italian restaurant. [:D]
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake
Yes, you need the Army but they need to BRING something with them to eat. That is skirting close to a breakdown in social order. If the infrastructure still works the UN brings in bakeries (like they did in Sarjevo).

I just read the news, and the government is doing just that: 400 millions Euro are being set aside to provide food for families everywhere. They devised a scheme that gives more money to the needy (basically, if your family income is lower that the national average you get more money for food).

I can't comment on the numbers. My feeling is that 400 millions Euro is too little - but it is a step in the right direction.

And I still wonder what this will mean for illegal workers. Can they honestly say that they are maintaining a family with - officially - zero or close to zero income?

At least it is a start. Once they get a better idea of how much is needed, then they can provide more money.

As far as the illegal workers go, maybe they will have to start being legal. Maybe going through a temporary agency to get a record of the earnings. Of course, the criminal element will still be criminal. I read about that community north of Naples where the African immigrants are.
This whole economic mess has been building for decades because of two global factors:
1. The global population has been growing at an accelerating rate with more people living longer. That in itself is an economic demand on food/clothing/shelter and services like health care.

2. Economic disparity has been growing exponentially as a few powerful people concentrated more and more wealth in their hands while wiping out the median income middle class. This is NOT a cry for socialism - it is an observation that these people broke the capitalist system envisage by Locke and Adams and Smith.

The concept originally was for small, local businesses to compete with one another in a fair market for the ultimate benefit of the people. When the millionaires of last century decided they should be billionaires, they used their power to wipe out competing business by throttling the supply chain (demanding suppliers only deal with the big business or else) and buying up any small business that had innovative ideas (Microsoft did this extensively). And of course, they used political influence to ensure that the anti-trust laws were weak or not enforced.

So now we have a world disaster that requires financial resilience everywhere and it doesn't exist because the very rich hold the money that is needed and governments have to hope they can borrow from them. The masses have fewer financial reserves than they should because their well paying jobs have been eliminated and most are paid just enough to get by. This means greater dependence on the government which cannot handle the demands.

So what's next? What always happens when the masses cannot have their needs met - revolution by violent means, throwing out the old system, including parts of it that were working well. In Italy's example, the Mafia could take over the role of the government. Some would argue that organized crime might do that in other western countries as well. And Russia is waiting for opportunities, but might find itself busy holding down their own long-suffering peoples.

China? It has found stability in a capitalist economy by using cheap labour and adaptability to make wealthy nations dependent on it. The sudden downsize of the world economy is hurting them but they will get by for now. But if every country gets protectionist and cuts off dealing with China, we can expect all manner of troubles.

So I agree with RFalvo69 that handling this economic disaster as a worldwide wake-up call for getting away from the alligators and then draining the swamp to get a more equitable and resilient economy is crucial. And BTW, dealing with climate change might be a necessary part of that realignment of human effort. There is much work to be done, so there is money to be made and spent!
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69




I just read the news, and the government is doing just that: 400 millions Euro are being set aside to provide food for families everywhere. They devised a scheme that gives more money to the needy (basically, if your family income is lower that the national average you get more money for food).

I can't comment on the numbers. My feeling is that 400 millions Euro is too little - but it is a step in the right direction.

And I still wonder what this will mean for illegal workers. Can they honestly say that they are maintaining a family with - officially - zero or close to zero income?

At least it is a start. Once they get a better idea of how much is needed, then they can provide more money.

As far as the illegal workers go, maybe they will have to start being legal. Maybe going through a temporary agency to get a record of the earnings. Of course, the criminal element will still be criminal. I read about that community north of Naples where the African immigrants are.
This whole economic mess has been building for decades because of two global factors:
1. The global population has been growing at an accelerating rate with more people living longer. That in itself is an economic demand on food/clothing/shelter and services like health care.

2. Economic disparity has been growing exponentially as a few powerful people concentrated more and more wealth in their hands while wiping out the median income middle class. This is NOT a cry for socialism - it is an observation that these people broke the capitalist system envisage by Locke and Adams and Smith.

The concept originally was for small, local businesses to compete with one another in a fair market for the ultimate benefit of the people. When the millionaires of last century decided they should be billionaires, they used their power to wipe out competing business by throttling the supply chain (demanding suppliers only deal with the big business or else) and buying up any small business that had innovative ideas (Microsoft did this extensively). And of course, they used political influence to ensure that the anti-trust laws were weak or not enforced.

So now we have a world disaster that requires financial resilience everywhere and it doesn't exist because the very rich hold the money that is needed and governments have to hope they can borrow from them. The masses have fewer financial reserves than they should because their well paying jobs have been eliminated and most are paid just enough to get by. This means greater dependence on the government which cannot handle the demands.

So what's next? What always happens when the masses cannot have their needs met - revolution by violent means, throwing out the old system, including parts of it that were working well. In Italy's example, the Mafia could take over the role of the government. Some would argue that organized crime might do that in other western countries as well. And Russia is waiting for opportunities, but might find itself busy holding down their own long-suffering peoples.

China? It has found stability in a capitalist economy by using cheap labour and adaptability to make wealthy nations dependent on it. The sudden downsize of the world economy is hurting them but they will get by for now. But if every country gets protectionist and cuts off dealing with China, we can expect all manner of troubles.

So I agree with RFalvo69 that handling this economic disaster as a worldwide wake-up call for getting away from the alligators and then draining the swamp to get a more equitable and resilient economy is crucial. And BTW, dealing with climate change might be a necessary part of that realignment of human effort. There is much work to be done, so there is money to be made and spent!

Climate change, that is a whole 'nuther topic that I won't get into here.

As far as the size of the businesses, did you ever think that the governments might want fewer but larger businesses since it could be easier to control them? But that may also have been when each country or region was it's own market, not with the global system now. I won't get into anymore here as I don't want to go to far down that path.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Scott_USN »

Climate change? Yeah throw that in there right now. Revolution? Give me a break.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Canoerebel »

We've done a darned good job sticking to the topic, backing away from occasional unnecessary tangential subjects that would create friction and detract from reasoned analysis of this virus outbreak. I hope we can continue.

P.S. I am chief among sinners when it comes to the occasional dust-ups.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Cap Mandrake »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

We've done a darned good job sticking to the topic, backing away from occasional unnecessary tangential subjects that would create friction and detract from reasoned analysis of this virus outbreak. I hope we can continue.

P.S. I am chief among sinners when it comes to the occasional dust-ups.

I picture Atticus Finch in horn-rimmed glasses giving that speech and making everyone feel like lunkheads. [;)]
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Cap Mandrake »

What a mess.

Well established risk factors for bad outcomes.

Age over 60 worrisome...over 80...red lights flashing
Smoking
Hypertension

Certainly something to worry about, chronic asthma, COPD (almost guaranteed), CHF, diabetes, immunosuppressive drugs, pregnancy, obesity
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Encircled
We as a family now eat about 1/2 as much meat as we used to, and make stews/curries/bolognese type dishes with lentils and meats.

Aye. Ours too. That's great. But it's a far cry from 'diversify your diet' to 'meat=murder' and 'big=bad'. Unfortunately, the militant vegan screed preys on an uncertain public to opportunistically promote their drivel.

Thankfully, the number of people who are militantly vegan/vegetarian is pretty small. They're just loud, like most extreme position-takers are.


A few pages back, there was speculation of deaths being at or under what the most recent seasonal flu killed (I'm not sure where the person sourced that number but it was ~80K). Dr. Fauci today said 100K to 200K, which he considered a "moderate" estimate.
Fauci suggested that the 100,000 to 200,000 death range is a moderate estimate, and that the possibility of 1 million or more Americans dying from the coronavirus is “almost certainly off the chart” — that “it’s not impossible, but very, very unlikely.”
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: Scott_USN

Climate change? Yeah throw that in there right now. Revolution? Give me a break.
I am not advocating for anything particular. I am just saying that by the time we get the pandemic under control the chaos created will make for huge instability, for the underlying reasons I mentioned. I hope some brilliant leaders can come up with a plan to prevent that, but seeing what they are doing now does not give confidence for cooperation. I just think we need to think beyond our own artificial borders if we want a good outcome sooner.

You don't have to agree with me, I just giving a frame of reference you can use to look at events in subsequent years. If it doesn't work - great! That means things turned out better than I feared!
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Canoerebel »

We've tossed around the seasonal flu numbers, usually focusing on around 40k.

The University of Washington came out with an estimate of 80k coronavirus deaths a few days ago.

On Sunday, Dr. Fauci offered a qualified 100k to 200k, noting that there are higher and lower estimates and that he's never seen a case where higher estimates come true. Of course, the press ran with that, AP offering headlines of "200k", followed by quite a few other outlets. Only a couple included the Doctor's qualifying comments. The press is absolutely terrible. Giving a smidgeon of truth but never the whole truth and in the process thereby offering a majestic distortion that bears no resemblance to the truth. General Sherman was absolutely right about the press.

Meantime, a world (and some forumites) are rattled by estimates that are considerably dampened compared to the apocalyptic numbers that were being floated two and three weeks ago.

And looking at the raw date, its still difficult to see how we get from where we are to anything like 100k to 200k mortality in the USA or any of the massive numbers once proposed worldwide.

Today, 264 deaths in the USA. Yesterday it was 501. We are most certainly not in the declining state. We are in the increasing stage. But mortality numbers are not going through the roof. Active cases are, but that appears to be more as a result of big increases in testing. The outbreak is mature enough in the US that we should be seeing huge numbers of death and massive increases each day.

How do we get from 264 or 500 to 200k when even the pessimistic folks are predicting a peak "in the second week of April"?

What's going on? What am I missing?
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Canoerebel »

Mortality chart for the USA. To get from here to 100k, we'd have to average 1k deaths a day for the next three months.

Nowhere has the virus outbreak had that kind of sustained impact. Not China. Not South Korea. And, judging from the strong trend in numbers, not Italy.

This critter seems to blow itself out in six weeks to two months - on its own or through a strong assist by mankind (medicine, countermeasures, etc.). Most of the recent prognostications from US authorities have placed the peak in "the second week of April." If that's true, then the cases will be level or tapering going into the latter half of April.

Of course, if we rise up to 5k or 10k or 15k mortalities a day, the numbers jump massively. But there's no evidence yet of such a jump kicking in. Washington State and California have had outbreaks much longer than NYC and haven't imploded - at least, not yet.

We took countermeasures earlier in our cycle than Italy did theirs; we are blessed with a a more robust nationwide healthcare system that's had more time to gear up and develop treatments and ideas; we have a much bigger (but also more dispersed) population than Italy's. But I can't envision a scenario where we fail utterly in comparison.

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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

We've tossed around the seasonal flu numbers, usually focusing on around 40k.

The University of Washington came out with an estimate of 80k coronavirus deaths a few days ago.

On Sunday, Dr. Fauci offered a qualified 100k to 200k, noting that there are higher and lower estimates and that he's never seen a case where higher estimates come true. Of course, the press ran with that, AP offering headlines of "200k", followed by quite a few other outlets. Only a couple included the Doctor's qualifying comments. The press is absolutely terrible. Giving a smidgeon of truth but never the whole truth and in the process thereby offering a majestic distortion that bears no resemblance to the truth. General Sherman was absolutely right about the press.

Meantime, a world (and some forumites) are rattled by estimates that are considerably dampened compared to the apocalyptic numbers that were being floated two and three weeks ago.

And looking at the raw date, its still difficult to see how we get from where we are to anything like 100k to 200k mortality in the USA or any of the massive numbers once proposed worldwide.

Today, 264 deaths in the USA. Yesterday it was 501. We are most certainly not in the declining state. We are in the increasing stage. But mortality numbers are not going through the roof. Active cases are, but that appears to be more as a result of big increases in testing. The outbreak is mature enough in the US that we should be seeing huge numbers of death and massive increases each day.

How do we get from 264 or 500 to 200k when even the pessimistic folks are predicting a peak "in the second week of April"?

What's going on? What am I missing?

[CDC website says ~34.2K for 2018-19 seasonal flu death toll. An April 2019 UMN.edu page had it at 34K-52K.]


Because it's exponential (I know you know this, but it's really hard to internalize what exactly that means). We (as a country) haven't even reached the peak of the deaths curve yet, and roughly 2/3 of the area under the curve (the total number of deaths, in other words; also this is basically calculus, class) falls within 1 standard deviation of the midpoint on a standard bell curve.

I wouldn't be shocked if we hit 200K over perhaps a year or so, but honestly I don't think this is really "real" yet for much of the country. I think for many folks and many areas, it's still only half real. Given Fauci's update today, I think it's realistic to expect somewhere in the range of 100-150K over the next 3-6 months, and that's with our social shutdown. If we ease up on that, the number of deaths rises dramatically.

An analogy I read the other week for thinking about the exponential rate and how our brains work follows, but the example was for doubling every day rather than doubling every 3rd day. It still holds, it's just a bit slower. Imagine you have a pond and the amount of the surface covered by the algae doubles every day. Aroundabouts the time the algae covers half, or perhaps only 1/4, of the pond, you decide that the problem is serious enough that you've got to act on it. But then the next day, the algae completely covers the pond. (The pond in this example would be analogous to our peak deaths per day).

Basically, we're still on the ramp up to the peak even just on the number of cases (with deaths lagging perhaps 2 weeks or more behind?), just in NYC and the other cities with large numbers of cases now. Nevermind other parts of the country that are only just "getting started" on their number of cases.


We could really use more testing, but I'm not gonna hold my breath.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Canoerebel »

A better example. Double a penny every day and in 20 days you have a few dollars. In 30 days you have something like 11 million dollars.

I understand exponents.

I do not understand the correlation between the numbers being reported and 100k or 200k in the USA.

How do we get from Governor Cuomo's peak "the second week of April" to a six month cataclysm? I know he's talking about New York, but still. Cities in California and Washington have dealt with it longer and didn't explode.

And with all the increases coming in hospital beds and ventilators, ideas for treatments and skill at treating, we're not gonna get on top of this?

I don't see it.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Mortality chart for the USA. To get from here to 100k, we'd have to average 1k deaths a day for the next three months.

Nowhere has the virus outbreak had that kind of sustained impact. Not China. Not South Korea. And, judging from the strong trend in numbers, not Italy.

This critter seems to blow itself out in six weeks to two months - on its own or through a strong assist by mankind (medicine, countermeasures, etc.). Most of the recent prognostications from US authorities have placed the peak in "the second week of April." If that's true, then the cases will be level or tapering going into the latter half of April.

Of course, if we rise up to 5k or 10k or 15k mortalities a day, the numbers jump massively. But there's no evidence yet of such a jump kicking in. Washington State and California have had outbreaks much longer than NYC and haven't imploded - at least, not yet.

We took countermeasures earlier in our cycle than Italy did theirs; we are blessed with a a more robust nationwide healthcare system that's had more time to gear up and develop treatments and ideas; we have a much bigger (but also more dispersed) population than Italy's. But I can't envision a scenario where we fail utterly in comparison.

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Perhaps - the curve of death rate per million for the US is under the Italian curve, but not by much. It's also possible that ours will be slower because our country is geographically bigger, which should ostensibly mean fewer deaths because the curve would be flatter (all else equal).

However, Italy (a country of ~60M) has passed a death toll of 10K and it's not clear that they're halfway through yet. That's a country less than 1/5 the size of the USA (~320M), so if we followed the Italian curve exactly and they are at exactly the midpoint of their deaths right now, then we'd see a death toll of just north of 100K.

It's worth noting that most other western countries are also essentially tracking with the Italian death curve (which is on day 33), except for Spain (which is doing worse at day 22) and Switzerland (which is doing better at day 24). The USA is also doing better and may follow a path closer to Switzerland's, but we're still a week behind all of these other countries in terms of number of days since death rate passed 1 per 10 million. Also worth noting that Germany, the country with the nearest number of ICU beds per capita to the US number, is on day 15 and on track with the Italian curve as well.

However, it's not apparent to me that the number of deaths per day in Italy has peaked, unless the curve is going to end up looking like a 5-year-old's drawing of a mountain instead of a drawing of a hill. So even if we're somewhat under the Italian death curve (which right now would put us at 100K-ish with very rough back of the envelope math), that's only if the Italian curve peaks right now. And there isn't really any convincing evidence yet that we'll stay under the Italian curve permanently. If we're lucky, maybe we will.

It's doubtful that I'll have time tomorrow during work hours (and after that I'm going outside), but if we can agree on a source to use (Johns Hopkins?), I can put these into Excel for daily visualization.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

A better example. Double a penny every day and in 20 days you have a few dollars. In 30 days you have something like 11 million dollars.

I understand exponents.

I do not understand the correlation between the numbers being reported and 100k or 200k in the USA.

How do we get from Governor Cuomo's peak "the second week of April" to a six month cataclysm? I know he's talking about New York, but still. Cities in California and Washington have dealt with it longer and didn't explode.

And with all the increases coming in hospital beds and ventilators, ideas for treatments and skill at treating, we're not gonna get on top of this?

I don't see it.

In order to peak in the second week of April (for deaths; not sure which he was referring to), they would have to be peaking on number of new cases right now.

That would be surprising to me, but I suppose it's technically possible. We'll find out in a few days whether March 30 was the peak for new cases in NYC, I suppose.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Canoerebel »

He was referring to cases in general, not mortality.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Canoerebel »

Italy, God bless them, was dealt a tough hand. If the US, with all the advantages at its disposal, doesn't do markedly better, I'll be shocked.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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