Noticing moderate numbers of mid-war IJNAF and IJAAF fighters in your lineup: Ki-44-IIc, N1K2-J and Ki-43 IIIa.
Sorry to dive into minutiae, but what are your pools of these antiquated airframes like now? I assume you're 'using them up' because you have them in abundance, rather than ongoing production.
Also, no Ki-84a in the lineup. I know you've used quite a few of these airframes in the last few months. Is everything just going into -r and -b production?
Thats right. Using them up as they're still useful in some situations, and for rear CAP, but also because this is a high attrition war. Since Dan started the roughly 18-20k airframes lost by each side has meant we've both had to use older airframes in certain roles. He's had F4F-4 on CAP recently!!
The Ki-43 III is a decent low CAP plane still, but a great escort. The Ki-44 Iic has the best climb so is decent in CAP defence in the rear. The N1K2 was still okay until a few months ago but I've noticed doesn't like meeting F4U-1D or Spit VIII much. [;)]
I can post pools soon.
All Frank production has upgraded, yes, with something like 280 Ki-84r and 105 Ki-84b. (I think, but I'll have a look).
The Ki-84a remaining are all in the South around Thailand and Malaya currently, and have been doing solid work in a CAP role against the sweeps from Burma.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
Ensure you have both day and night naval search covering the same area to catch those single ship raiders.
Alfred
I always have some night search to spot subs around the ig oil bases, so that part should be covered, but I've found it hasn't mattered with single ships.
"Naval Search" or the "ASW" mission? Plus is it of the same density as the daylight operation?
Alfred
Generally lower density, but in the naval search role covering a solid arc into the approach vectors. ASW mission can't operate at night unless I've been missing something, which is possible. [;)]
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
[font="Times New Roman"]Feb 19, 1945[/font]
So here is an example of me trying something that doesn't work. I've been trying different CAP settings and with the idea of radar added I tried a low CAP for the troop LR CAP. The top planes like Ki84r and Ki-83 generally do better, but it's pretty much a disaster.
Back to the drawing board.
By the third sweep scrambling begins and there are some really poor results after that. I'll simply go high for the next day and see how that works.
A single DD strikes at Biak. This is concerning. It's one that was operating in a twosome and seems now split off as a single. Hmmmm. I have TBs here that attacked the double DDs but didn't touch the single and I can't see it afterwards anywhere. [font="Trebuchet MS"][/font]
[font="Trebuchet MS"]-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Feb 19, 1945 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Biak at 87,110, Range 11,000 Yards
Japanese Ships xAKL Gyoun Maru, Shell hits 17, and is sunk
Allied Ships
DD Hammann
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 53% moonlight: 11,000 yards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 61st Division, at 123,52 , near Kushiro
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid spotted at 34 NM, estimated altitude 39,900 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 34
A7M2 Sam x 14
J1N1-Sa Irving x 12
J2M5 Jack x 51
N1K1-J George x 11
N1K2-J George x 2
N1K5-J George x 56
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 43
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 49
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 22
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 20
Ki-83 x 51
Ki-84b Frank x 60
Ki-84r Frank x 55
Ki-100-II Tony x 13
Ki-102b Randy x 12
CAP engaged:
S-407 Hikotai with A6M8 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(18 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 18 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 8000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
74th I.F.Chutai/B with Ki-102b Randy (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(12 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 11000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
Unryu-1 with J2M5 Jack (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(16 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 16 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 5000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
65th Sentai with Ki-45 KAIa Nick (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(20 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 20 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
903 Ku S-1 with N1K5-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
Yokosuka Ku S-2 with N1K5-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Raid is overhead
S-304 Hikotai with N1K5-J George (11 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Raid is overhead
210 Ku S-1 with A6M8 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 16 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
210 Ku S-2 with N1K1-J George (11 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 41010 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 41010.
Raid is overhead
S-316 Hikotai with N1K5-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
302 Ku S-1 with N1K5-J George (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Raid is overhead
302 Ku S-3 with J1N1-Sa Irving (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 7 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 100 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
S-402 Hikotai with J2M5 Jack (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 7000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes
Shoho-1 with N1K2-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes
S-306 Hikotai with N1K5-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 7 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
S-307 Hikotai with J2M5 Jack (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 16 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 7000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
S-317 Hikotai with N1K5-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 15 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
S-902 Hikotai with J1N1-Sa Irving (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 5 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 100 , scrambling fighters to 5000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
70th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 7000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
Hiryu-1 with J2M5 Jack (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 11 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 7000.
Raid is overhead
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 61st Division, at 123,52 , near Kushiro
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid spotted at 41 NM, estimated altitude 43,300 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 25
A7M2 Sam x 12
J1N1-Sa Irving x 12
J2M5 Jack x 43
N1K1-J George x 11
N1K2-J George x 1
N1K5-J George x 52
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 32
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 36
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 15
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 10
Ki-83 x 41
Ki-84b Frank x 45
Ki-84r Frank x 43
Ki-100-II Tony x 13
Ki-102b Randy x 9
CAP engaged:
903 Ku S-1 with N1K5-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 5 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
Yokosuka Ku S-2 with N1K5-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
S-304 Hikotai with N1K5-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 11 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
210 Ku S-1 with A6M8 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 16 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 5 minutes
210 Ku S-2 with N1K1-J George (11 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 41010 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 41010.
Raid is overhead
S-316 Hikotai with N1K5-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
302 Ku S-1 with N1K5-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes
302 Ku S-3 with J1N1-Sa Irving (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 100 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes
S-402 Hikotai with J2M5 Jack (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
Shoho-1 with N1K2-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 5 minutes
S-306 Hikotai with N1K5-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 7 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 37 minutes
S-307 Hikotai with J2M5 Jack (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
14 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters to 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
S-317 Hikotai with N1K5-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
15 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters to 8000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
S-407 Hikotai with A6M8 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 71 minutes
S-902 Hikotai with J1N1-Sa Irving (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 5 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 100 , scrambling fighters to 5000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 37 minutes
74th I.F.Chutai/B with Ki-102b Randy (9 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 11000.
Raid is overhead
70th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 7000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
Hiryu-1 with J2M5 Jack (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters to 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
Ryujo-1 with A7M2 Sam (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
Unryu-1 with J2M5 Jack (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 16 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 5000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Chumphon , at 52,66
Weather in hex: Moderate rain
Raid spotted at 33 NM, estimated altitude 46,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 6
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 10
Ki-84a Frank x 13
CAP engaged:
S-302 Kokutai with A6M5b Zero (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
26th Sentai with Ki-43-IV Oscar (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
203rd Sentai with Ki-84a Frank (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 61st Division, at 123,52 , near Kushiro
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid spotted at 31 NM, estimated altitude 40,300 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 14
A7M2 Sam x 12
J1N1-Sa Irving x 6
J2M5 Jack x 38
N1K1-J George x 11
N1K2-J George x 1
N1K5-J George x 42
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 16
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 26
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 15
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 3
Ki-83 x 28
Ki-84b Frank x 44
Ki-84r Frank x 31
Ki-100-II Tony x 13
Ki-102b Randy x 6
CAP engaged:
903 Ku S-1 with N1K5-J George (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Raid is overhead
Yokosuka Ku S-2 with N1K5-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
S-304 Hikotai with N1K5-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 11 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Raid is overhead
210 Ku S-1 with A6M8 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
210 Ku S-2 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 41010 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
S-316 Hikotai with N1K5-J George (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters to 12000.
Raid is overhead
302 Ku S-1 with N1K5-J George (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Raid is overhead
302 Ku S-3 with J1N1-Sa Irving (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 100 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 79 minutes
S-402 Hikotai with J2M5 Jack (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 7000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
Shoho-1 with N1K2-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
S-306 Hikotai with N1K5-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
S-307 Hikotai with J2M5 Jack (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 14 scrambling)
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters to 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
S-317 Hikotai with N1K5-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 15 scrambling)
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters to 8000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
S-407 Hikotai with A6M8 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 6 scrambling)
Group patrol altitude is 8000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
S-902 Hikotai with J1N1-Sa Irving (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 100 , scrambling fighters to 5000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
74th I.F.Chutai/B with Ki-102b Randy (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
70th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 7000.
Raid is overhead
Hiryu-1 with J2M5 Jack (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 11 scrambling)
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters to 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
Ryujo-1 with A7M2 Sam (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 12 scrambling)
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
Unryu-1 with J2M5 Jack (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 61st Division, at 123,52 , near Kushiro
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid spotted at 32 NM, estimated altitude 44,300 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 7
A7M2 Sam x 12
J1N1-Sa Irving x 4
J2M5 Jack x 31
N1K1-J George x 11
N1K2-J George x 1
N1K5-J George x 21
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 3
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 20
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 15
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 1
Ki-83 x 17
Ki-84b Frank x 37
Ki-84r Frank x 20
Ki-100-II Tony x 4
Ki-102b Randy x 3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 61st Division, at 123,52 , near Kushiro
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid spotted at 31 NM, estimated altitude 44,300 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 5
A7M2 Sam x 12
J1N1-Sa Irving x 2
J2M5 Jack x 26
N1K1-J George x 3
N1K2-J George x 1
N1K5-J George x 18
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 1
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 19
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 15
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 1
Ki-83 x 11
Ki-84b Frank x 30
Ki-84r Frank x 13
Ki-100-II Tony x 2
Ki-102b Randy x 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 25th RF Gun Battalion, at 123,52 , near Kushiro
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid spotted at 42 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 1
A7M2 Sam x 9
J2M5 Jack x 18
N1K1-J George x 1
N1K5-J George x 15
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 1
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 10
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 15
Ki-83 x 5
Ki-84b Frank x 14
Ki-84r Frank x 11
Ki-102b Randy x 1
RE the question (the limited question) of an HR to ban single-ship TFs. I think players tie themselves into knots due to asking the wrong questions.
On the issue of detection, it should be hard to detect one ship from the air. It's darn hard to see a 300-ft vessel from the surface of the sea at five miles (10,000 yards.) Gray on gray if there is any sort of mist or fog, not to mention camo schemes specifically aimed at making a ship look like fog. Smoke was the main way to detect in calm air. In perfect conditions, with height-of-eye at top weather deck, with good binocs, you can push the circle out to ten miles or so. If you can see the tops of masts coming over the curve a bit more depending on height. But the math is the math.
Aloft, a ship is seen most often from the wake. But wakes merge with whitecaps very quickly. And 300-feet long is not very much data from 3-5 miles up, moving at 150 kts or more.
Once engaged, a DD should be very hard to hit with planes. They are fast and they turn on a dime. They have dual shafts, and can twist. Late-war USN DDs have fearsome AA capability, and TBs fly low, slow, and straight. 8-10 in one unit coming in on the same vector should be shot to pieces by a Fletcher. That's not unreasonable.
The way to stop single DD TFs is with surface forces, and there Japan is at a disadvantage if they have had their navy sunk. Such is life.
But the main point to me is ROI. One DD can only do one DD's-worth of damage. They have limited ammo, limited ops points. If damaged they have no TF buddies to provide AA and ASW services on the retreat. And damage shoots the DL up fast.
Many IJN PB's are up-armed tramp steamers essentially. They are not real warships. One or two of them ought to be fresh meat for a modern, well-crewed and led USN DD (with armor.) IF you let 1-2 PBs meet a DD you shouldn't ask for HRs. Just don't do that. Mass your remaining surface assets, move in company under whatever LBA you can put together (you might get lucky), and muddle through, knowing he's probably under-using his DDs anyway.
'Cause if 1-ship is bad, why is 2-ships OK? Why not an HR for 3? 4?
Wow, massacre! Although total airborne numbers doesn't seem to be any different from previous turns.
However, I see most of airgroups with 0 planes at immediate contact. Have you checked what was difference in settings of those groups present, and those with 0 planes?
ORIGINAL: obvert
What does everyone think?
Single ship raiding TFs deep behind enemy lines??
You might be having trouble with detecting them, because of their speed. My MAVIS at 10 hexes, 6000 ft seems to detect 1-2 ship Transport TFs, although not at first day. What I observed, that my Surface Combat TFs seems to engage them without problem, even sole DD one, and without previous detection by planes.
Since there is no point now in keeping your ships near US Invasion Beaches, relegate them to hunting at your rear. Just remember, that you need something heavier than sole DDs at this stage of war. And probably you need FP in TF to react.
Once engaged, a DD should be very hard to hit with planes. They are fast and they turn on a dime. They have dual shafts, and can twist. Late-war USN DDs have fearsome AA capability, and TBs fly low, slow, and straight. 8-10 in one unit coming in on the same vector should be shot to pieces by a Fletcher. That's not unreasonable.
For well over 100 attacks, I can recall maybe 2 instances, where my TBs hit enemy raider DD with bombs. Frankly, DBs are not much better, but they are still better.
The way to stop single DD TFs is with surface forces, and there Japan is at a disadvantage if they have had their navy sunk. Such is life.
Funny thing is, that Japan can now try to employ Submarines against those raiders. Single DD probably will not sink submarine, and they have nothing better to do anyway, at this stage of war.
But the main point to me is ROI. One DD can only do one DD's-worth of damage. They have limited ammo, limited ops points. If damaged they have no TF buddies to provide AA and ASW services on the retreat. And damage shoots the DL up fast.
This.
There's nothing wrong with 1-ship TFs performing a valid function. Single xAKs running supply in to a contested base? That's totally OK. Single DDs going raiding? Definitely OK, for reasons Bullwinkle mentioned (although I'm not sure damage really helps with detecting them in the first place).
The only semi-exploit is when there are 1-ship TFs (PBs, empty xAKLs, etc.) that aren't performing any other function than to be a damage sponge. And even then, proper DLs on other, more important TFs can mitigate the issue. People seem to forget sometimes that relative threat level and importance of the target are considerations in the naval strike code. But sometimes it will still cause a splintering of strikes that wouldn't have happened IRL and can result in nasty in-game results.
I was under the impression that System damage, that causes smoke, does raise DL, but I will concede it's quite a while since I read the DL manual section.
RE the question (the limited question) of an HR to ban single-ship TFs. I think players tie themselves into knots due to asking the wrong questions.
On the issue of detection, it should be hard to detect one ship from the air. It's darn hard to see a 300-ft vessel from the surface of the sea at five miles (10,000 yards.) Gray on gray if there is any sort of mist or fog, not to mention camo schemes specifically aimed at making a ship look like fog. Smoke was the main way to detect in calm air. In perfect conditions, with height-of-eye at top weather deck, with good binocs, you can push the circle out to ten miles or so. If you can see the tops of masts coming over the curve a bit more depending on height. But the math is the math.
Aloft, a ship is seen most often from the wake. But wakes merge with whitecaps very quickly. And 300-feet long is not very much data from 3-5 miles up, moving at 150 kts or more.
Once engaged, a DD should be very hard to hit with planes. They are fast and they turn on a dime. They have dual shafts, and can twist. Late-war USN DDs have fearsome AA capability, and TBs fly low, slow, and straight. 8-10 in one unit coming in on the same vector should be shot to pieces by a Fletcher. That's not unreasonable.
The way to stop single DD TFs is with surface forces, and there Japan is at a disadvantage if they have had their navy sunk. Such is life.
But the main point to me is ROI. One DD can only do one DD's-worth of damage. They have limited ammo, limited ops points. If damaged they have no TF buddies to provide AA and ASW services on the retreat. And damage shoots the DL up fast.
Many IJN PB's are up-armed tramp steamers essentially. They are not real warships. One or two of them ought to be fresh meat for a modern, well-crewed and led USN DD (with armor.) IF you let 1-2 PBs meet a DD you shouldn't ask for HRs. Just don't do that. Mass your remaining surface assets, move in company under whatever LBA you can put together (you might get lucky), and muddle through, knowing he's probably under-using his DDs anyway.
'Cause if 1-ship is bad, why is 2-ships OK? Why not an HR for 3? 4?
I get that. The HR is bothersome to me, but on the other hand it does feel like there is a distinct difference between 1 ship and 2+ ship TFs regarding detection. If not there wouldn't have been dozens of threads and posts about this over the years. I've strayed away form ever asking for an agreement on this as most players simply self-regulate their use.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
ORIGINAL: obvert
I get that. The HR is bothersome to me, but on the other hand it does feel like there is a distinct difference between 1 ship and 2+ ship TFs regarding detection. If not there wouldn't have been dozens of threads and posts about this over the years. I've strayed away form ever asking for an agreement on this as most players simply self-regulate their use.
Still eagerly reading and enjoying every post of yours
But I think in this one, it is important to bear in mind that much of the discussion of 1 ship TFs revolves around a different - one might perhaps even say opposite - issue, their use (or, depending on point of view abuse) as picket ships, which is possible because they are detected, even though I am not sure whether the search routine that applies is the same, and in addition the resulting fear that they may burn CV mission points that are spent. So you have to filter for threads that complain about 1 ship TFs because they are hard to detect. There may be those as well, but my subjective impression is that this is the minority by far.
I sent the turn back with no comment to Mr Roper. He's very interested in the psychological portion of the game and in trying to rattle or alter the comfort level of an opponent, and I see multiple efforts to do this in game including things he knows have been commented on in the past in his own threads and others. He's sneaky, tough, unpredictable and carries a big hammer. [;)]
As for protecting the vital DEI/SRA oil bases and transport paths, this is somewhat beyond the capability of the IJN at this point in the war. I've got one CL/DD TF in theatre, currently trying to interdict a possible landing along the Burmese coastline. I will break off several ships to guard Palembang and Balikpapan.
My TBs did hit from 1k feet, 3 x 250kg bombs on a USN DD, so that part is possible if I can find them. [:)]
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
ORIGINAL: obvert
I get that. The HR is bothersome to me, but on the other hand it does feel like there is a distinct difference between 1 ship and 2+ ship TFs regarding detection. If not there wouldn't have been dozens of threads and posts about this over the years. I've strayed away form ever asking for an agreement on this as most players simply self-regulate their use.
Still eagerly reading and enjoying every post of yours
But I think in this one, it is important to bear in mind that much of the discussion of 1 ship TFs revolves around a different - one might perhaps even say opposite - issue, their use (or, depending on point of view abuse) as picket ships, which is possible because they are detected, even though I am not sure whether the search routine that applies is the same, and in addition the resulting fear that they may burn CV mission points that are spent. So you have to filter for threads that complain about 1 ship TFs because they are hard to detect. There may be those as well, but my subjective impression is that this is the minority by far.
Just my 2cts
Hartwig
Right. Pickets somehow I don't mind, unless of course they're intended as soakers in anticipation of a CV exchange, but usually as Loka points out those would be best as larger or more targetable TFs. Still I've never had a problem with them.
I think some of that is that players don't use 1 ship DD raiders often, for various reasons. Early it's probably that they're scarce and highly valued. Later, probably because (as allies) they're plentiful, and why have only one when you could use 5-8? [:)] (The only reason as I see it is to avoid detection on deep raids).
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
I get that. The HR is bothersome to me, but on the other hand it does feel like there is a distinct difference between 1 ship and 2+ ship TFs regarding detection. If not there wouldn't have been dozens of threads and posts about this over the years. I've strayed away form ever asking for an agreement on this as most players simply self-regulate their use.
Going into the Wayback Machine here, memory-wise. There IS a difference in 1-ship TFs and 2-, 3-, 4-, etc. It's math. If Symon were involved in the algo he'd sure know it, since the Royal Navy, back in sailing frigate days, researched search patterns and came up with guidelines for frigate employment as they swept ahead searching for the battle line.
I read something long ago--maybe in B-school Quant Methods class, or in a game design article (I know Pac Man's designers considered the decision logic at the search intersections pretty carefully)--but somewhere I know I read about the math of search patterns with one and two searcher objects. Consider:
1. A one-ship TF. It has a circle of detection around it at all times. Let's say it's 10 miles. As it moves this area stays symmetric and only shrinks due to weather and time of day. Conversely, the searchers have this constant area to find. Whether they do is driven by a host of factors, such as sensors, altitude, speed, training, fatigue, etc.
2. A 2-ship TF, transiting. Assume they are identical ships in terms of top hamper (I haven't been able to work that phrase into a sentence in ten years!). smoke, length, paint, etc. They are on the same course and at same speed. Is the circle of detection 2x case #1? No. Each ship has a 10-mile circle around it, but, assuming they stay within flashing light/semaphore range, they are not 10-miles apart. The circles overlap. Detection probability is less than 2x.
3. A 2-ship TF, searching. This is the interesting case, and what you would find in the game with raiders, or even, I assume, any TF with Naval orders. This is interesting because the ships are maneuvering constantly, not on a steady course and speed. They still have the 10mile circle around each, but at each point of inflection, each course and speed change decision, each makes an independent decision. Ship A doesn't plow ahead while Ship B maneuvers. Each maneuvers at each decision. The prediction math gets pretty hairy over a time curve as I recall, but it's doable. Sometimes they may probabilistically be very close to each other with strong overlap, and in other cases the circles may cease to overlap, but leave a "barbell" of higher detection probability in between the two that depends on the decision made by an enemy searcher's maneuver decision inside that barbell.
So its not possible to say 100% of the time that a 2-ship TF is 2x more likely to be detected. It may be 20% more likely, or it may be 3x, or something else. But is IS possible to pretty firmly predict the 1-ship case.
I know the USN has procedures for SAR operations in how to set up the most efficient search patterns, especially when helos are available, as in man-overboard situations. I think they're computerized now, and rapidly executed. In the old days it was graph paper. Having 20 searchers instead of 2 can get hard really fast in terms of not missing a square.
But in terms of the game, I still think 1-ship TFs are and should be very hard to detect. If anything the game makes detection far too easy in RL terms in the furtherance of gameplay. My views on this vis a vis submarines are well known. But inserting an HR mandating at least 2-ships is, IMO, a patch on the real-world reality that requiring 2- isn't a panacea. And it, like all HRs, "gets into the business" of the opponent's assets, and I don't like that on philosophical grounds. I don't think you do either from your comments.
I was under the impression that System damage, that causes smoke, does raise DL, but I will concede it's quite a while since I read the DL manual section.
I hate 5that section. [8D]
I also suspect that (that's why I always return Submarines with over 10 SYS damage to port), and that fires help to detect ship at night, although there is nothing in manual about it.
Actually, I just checked that manual section, and it is clearly written, that during Recon missions only experience of pilot is used, even for increasing detection during bombing
(it also writes, that LCU in hex next to friendly unit have always detection greater than 0, but week ago I had exactly that situation, and base wasn't empty despite no report, and mouse-over of enemy units. My paratroopers learned hard way)
I get that. The HR is bothersome to me, but on the other hand it does feel like there is a distinct difference between 1 ship and 2+ ship TFs regarding detection. If not there wouldn't have been dozens of threads and posts about this over the years. I've strayed away form ever asking for an agreement on this as most players simply self-regulate their use.
The posts are actually, if we are talking about the same posts, about the 1-ship TFs being detected and attacked as damage sponges.
