When?

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I thought they might be getting closer with the start of the AAR's. (Usually a good sign as the game is far enough along to be somewhat "useable"). I didn't imagine it would be this soon, but I have to also assume no AI on the initial release. While disappointed, I totally understand as the game has been in development for so long, there has to be a desire to get some revenue coming in somehow for all this work. I know at one point, Steve mentioned an estimate of 5000 hours for the AI. My guess is it might take longer than that although how much is done already, we don't really know. We do know a lot of the scripts and decision trees from a strategy standpoint have been in progress, so that does help. My best guess is they will release this summer if they can and then it would probably be at least another year for an "AI expansion" that may also include some additional stuff that is also being left out of the initial release.

Either way, certainly a positive step forward at this point.

Forgive me for this as I do not want to get into any argument again about this AI thing.
I will buy the game AI or no AI, I want to be very clear about that. To all the board game players no AI will not matter to you I assume, not sure of that. I believe with my heart and soul that the majority of wargamers in the open market will not buy this game without a decent AI. I for one do not like pbem. And net play I am not sure about that either. There is nothing better than to play against a human opponet. I play cod2 all the time on line. The cod2 AI is not bad for a computer game but I prefer going up against very good players even if I dont do well. Steve has not said one way or the other about an AI. I did not read that 5000 hours thing, must have missed it. To my knowledge every top selling war game in the last 10 years had an AI. Even if the AI is poor I dont care at least I will learn something from it. There is a big following of board gamers but really not enough to make money for Matrix. There is a vast world of wargamers out there and if no AI I guarantee you they will not buy. I want to play when I want to play not when its convenient or not convenient for someone else. As I said before I have ADG'S WIF, its just ok and without an AI which it does not have I wish I had not bought it. My only experience with pbem was not good as it was all screwed up, why should I expect anything better now, please Steve not any kind of dig on you, I just don't have any confidence left with anybody. I tried to stay away from posting but this no AI thing has upset me, I thought it was a nobrainer situation. Guess not huh! These are my feelings right or wrong, just can't help being this way.

Bo

Bo, calm down, please.

Steve didn't say AI yes or AI no by now, we are just speculating.

But what I am pretty sure of (as much as I can be, through deduction) is that if the game comes out wothout an AI, there will be one in a future release.

I am a player who likes playing agaisnt humans the most but has faced competent AI (in their ambits) and I like not to have to depend on my friends to have a free while at the same time as me. All the same, I am not fan of PBEM, and much less in this case, there are too many steps every turn to have a "fluent" PBEM.

I believe there will be an AI when Steven is ready, and meanwhile, while it's true that most gamers will not buy it, WIF players will, and will have a release that will allow finally not having to drive XXX miles to play or dedicate a fixed date every week for playing, it will improve greatly wif gaming.

Of course, the grand distribution needs to be with AI (in the future, if we are guessing right).

[bo]

Calm down, OUCH! I thought those comments were pretty mild at least for me. Still on my meds so I am under control. When all else fails me I try to use common sense, I read Thomas Paines pamphlet on common sense and it is very interesting. You put all your likes and dislikes aside as best you can and try to come up with a viable solution which is very hard to do. Meaning this game that Steve is doing is not just for WIF board gamers which would be a terrible mistake, but for all of us who know very little about this game except for the forums where I have learned a great deal of information about WIF. Jose you are correct about PBEM, it sounds like a nightmare sending every move back and forth when you can, and netplay would also be very hard to work out unless you are in the same time zone and have nothing else to do, but beings I have never used net play I know little about it. So what does that leave us? Nuff said,
Common sense gentlemen, give me AI or give me death [;)] I think some famous American colonist said that not sure he said AI but what the heck I was never that good on history anyway.[:D]

Bo

[Joseignacio]

Bo, there is no doubt (IMO) that the game needs an AI if it is supposed to be widely distributed.

But there is a number of players of WIF many or most of who would gladly pay to have a system to enforce the rules without having to check the manual each step. I take you have not played wif over a table, but those of us who have, know that from a 5 to a 50% of the time (depending of the experience) of the time is a frustrating navigation through confusing rules that sometimes overlap each other, interprete them and convinve the opposer who may have a different opinion. This will be instantly solved.

As for the PBEM it's true it's not very adaptable to this game (IMO again), but the Netplay is different. I have a group of friends here in Madrid who play WIF, I don't play WIF here because I some of them are not very honest players and I prefer not to be in the group than trying to ban somebody from it. Also, some of them live rather far... As you can see, the enforce of the rules would solve the first problem, while Netplay would solve the distance problem. Since there is no time lost in visits, we could all play some hours most days if we had a game on.

Also, in Europe many people are in the same time zone (I believe, artificially alterated) as you can see here



so We could play in the same time zone with most of the players in Europe and with only one hour of delay for the rest except Russia.

[bo]

Jose I have never played the board game and my deepest respect to those who do. Talk about a nightmare all those pieces and rules whew. Never thought about using MWIF to enforce the rules and I don't know why because I use it in ADG's WIF and it is a big help.
Cheating is something I have a problem with in anything. In Cod2 we have all kinds of cheating, seeing thru walls and bushes, aimbot, on and on. Score is all that matters to some players. The cheaters must be German, Polish, English players, Italians etc. because nobody in Spain would cheat not with the Spanish Inquisition still around[:D]

Bo

[HansHafen]

Wow, Bo, I encourage you to play the boardgame in all of its glory, hung up on a wall with all the charts hanging to the side and the chits on the map! Wooohooo, beautiful I tell you. And great fun. I remember being like 20 years old or something like it and getting up on a Satuday at 6am to pick up a friend and be at the location to play WIF from like 7am to 2am that night! It was freaking amazing and more fun than men should ever have together!

[Joseignacio]

Bo, not only cheaters but also rules misunderstood with disparity of opinion. It's inversely proportional to the level of knowledge/experience of the players. And not only this, the rules are messy, they have been patched so many times that they are or look sometimes contradictory. Even experienced players need sometimes to ask Harry because of this, hence the Clarifications of the rules.

Hans, you are right, it's more fun than men should have ever together. Heterosexual men, of course, the others have some other funny activities too... [:D]

[Sewerlobster]

As a strong proponent of the "must have an AI", I certainly understand if Matrix elects to sell the first version without one. And then offer or provide the AI later. That sort of thing is a business decision; making games is a for profit endeavour. But it should be made exceedingly clear before release what is included and if the later AI will be free or sold as an expansion or even be attempted at all.
 
I agree with Jose that the MWiF will resolve many issues of competeing rules opinions. Heck even when I know a rule, I often simply forget to apply it.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: SewerStarFish

As a strong proponent of the "must have an AI", I certainly understand if Matrix elects to sell the first version without one. And then offer or provide the AI later. That sort of thing is a business decision; making games is a for profit endeavour. But it should be made exceedingly clear before release what is included and if the later AI will be free or sold as an expansion or even be attempted at all.

I agree with Jose that the MWiF will resolve many issues of competeing rules opinions. Heck even when I know a rule, I often simply forget to apply it.

I respect your opinion Sewer and if these posts go any farther I know it will get nasty again if certain posters who will remain nameless get back on with their frustration with Steve and the Matrix thing. I cannot believe that Matrix will allow this game to come out without an AI, it is not any kind of trolling or nastiness none of that, but as a business company trying to make a profit I would be stunned at no AI with that said I will repeat I will buy it AI or no AI. But the non-dedicated WIF people will not and there is many thousands of them, IMHO!

Bo

[Numdydar]

I have never played WiF ftf or the old computer version. However I have played DG's computer coversion of SPI's WiE that does not have an AI. I was very pleased (and surprised) at how well it worked playing both sides at the same time. Why? Just like WiF, WiE is a very complex game that is hard to keep track of everything that is happening on a single side you are playing much less both sides. It is possible to 'surprise yoursef' lol.

So I would suggest, that before everyone condems the decision of not having an AI (which we do not know for sure anyway), is to try a game that does not have one and play both sides. That will give you a much better perspective on realasing earlier without an AI (which I truely support btw) or delaying even longer to get the AI in.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

I have never played WiF ftf or the old computer version. However I have played DG's computer coversion of SPI's WiE that does not have an AI. I was very pleased (and surprised) at how well it worked playing both sides at the same time. Why? Just like WiF, WiE is a very complex game that is hard to keep track of everything that is happening on a single side you are playing much less both sides. It is possible to 'surprise yoursef' lol.

So I would suggest, that before everyone condems the decision of not having an AI (which we do not know for sure anyway), is to try a game that does not have one and play both sides. That will give you a much better perspective on realasing earlier without an AI (which I truely support btw) or delaying even longer to get the AI in.

I agree Num with you 100% as I have adg's wif and I have learned a lot from it [no AI] and with the rules and the roll of the dice anything can happen. But after awhile it starts to get a little stale, but that is just me probably. I believe that I would be helpless against most of the board game players here and before I could hope to challenge them I would need a lot of practice and one solution would be an AI good, bad or soso.

Bo

[BallyJ]

Since the issue of "AI or no AI" has come up again.
I will buy this game with or with out the AI.
I wish everyone working on it all the best.
Looking forward to a release ASAP.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

I have never played WiF ftf or the old computer version. However I have played DG's computer coversion of SPI's WiE that does not have an AI. I was very pleased (and surprised) at how well it worked playing both sides at the same time. Why? Just like WiF, WiE is a very complex game that is hard to keep track of everything that is happening on a single side you are playing much less both sides. It is possible to 'surprise yoursef' lol.

So I would suggest, that before everyone condems the decision of not having an AI (which we do not know for sure anyway), is to try a game that does not have one and play both sides. That will give you a much better perspective on realasing earlier without an AI (which I truely support btw) or delaying even longer to get the AI in.

I agree Num with you 100% as I have adg's wif and I have learned a lot from it [no AI] and with the rules and the roll of the dice anything can happen. But after awhile it starts to get a little stale, but that is just me probably. I believe that I would be helpless against most of the board game players here and before I could hope to challenge them I would need a lot of practice and one solution would be an AI good, bad or soso.

Bo

When choosing an opponent for NetPlay, I think that the preference in optional rules is going to be a strong indicator of how experienced the player is. If you just play against opponents who want to use the Novice set of optional rules, you are unlikely to run into someone who has been playing the game for years.

Playing against players of roughly equal skill level is a good way to learn. You can gradually work your way up to better players. The converse of this is that if you play against someone who is much, much better, well, neither of you is going to enjoy the game very much.

[Manic Inertia]

Hey Dudes.
Some of you might remember my user name. My real name's Tim, and I'm a keen WiFFE enthusiast who plays the game almost daily and who's attended both AusWiFCons, 2010 qnd 2011. I was part of an Allied Team that claimed a draw against skilled European opposition in 2010, and part of an Allied Team that won against Harry Rowland and two of his best freinds in 2011. I think that entitles me to speak with some gravity about WiFFE, regardless of whatever you 'solo' WiFFErs might hold as significant insights into how to play the game effectively.

This Computer WiF is a waste of space, commercially speaking. It won't work. I feel sorry for the guy who's been designing it for these last few years .. I love WiF, and I'd buy it myself, but you 'solo' game dreamers are deluded thinking that WiF has a sufficiently evolved market for a viable, commercial PC based distribution. Wake up: THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US. It doesn't. Sorry.

EDITED by Moderator to remove needless adjectives.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Hey Dudes.
Some of you might remember my user name. My real name's Tim, and I'm a keen WiFFE enthusiast who plays the game almost daily and who's attended both AusWiFCons, 2010 qnd 2011. I was part of an Allied Team that claimed a draw against skilled European opposition in 2010, and part of an Allied Team that won against Harry Rowland and two of his best freinds in 2011. I think that entitles me to speak with some gravity about WiFFE, regardless of whatever you mostly "armchair", obese, opinionated, american, middle-aged 'solo' WiFFErs might hold as significant insights into how to play the game effectively.

This Computer WiF is a waste of space, commercially speaking. It won't work. I feel sorry for the guy who's been beating his meat designing it for these last few years .. I love WiF, and I'd buy it myself, but you fat american middle-aged 'solo' game dreamers are rubbing yourselves into a deluded frenzy thinking that WiF has a sufficiently evolved market for a viable, commercial PC based distribution. Wake up and smell the poo : THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US. It doesn't. Sorry.

Warspite1

My my, what an unpleasant post.

You play a game almost daily? Mmmm, perhaps you may like to get out more - who knows, you may grow up and learn how to communicate with people in proper fashion.

"armchair", obese, opinionated, american, middle-aged 'solo' WiFFErs.
fat american middle-aged 'solo' game dreamers are rubbing yourselves into a deluded frenzy thinking
I feel sorry for the guy who's been beating his meat
Wake up and smell the poo

You pride yourself on being able to speak with gravitas about a game, and of course you could choose to to that, and get your points across in a polite and sensible fashion. But given the wording and tone of your post, I suspect that you are probably incapable of understanding that your post was totally out of order - indeed it would be offensive if you weren't so ridiculous; how old are you for goodness sake? Second thoughts don't answer that, I don't want to know.

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Hey Dudes.
Some of you might remember my user name. My real name's Tim, and I'm a keen WiFFE enthusiast who plays the game almost daily and who's attended both AusWiFCons, 2010 qnd 2011. I was part of an Allied Team that claimed a draw against skilled European opposition in 2010, and part of an Allied Team that won against Harry Rowland and two of his best freinds in 2011. I think that entitles me to speak with some gravity about WiFFE, regardless of whatever you mostly "armchair", obese, opinionated, american, middle-aged 'solo' WiFFErs might hold as significant insights into how to play the game effectively.

This Computer WiF is a waste of space, commercially speaking. It won't work. I feel sorry for the guy who's been beating his meat designing it for these last few years .. I love WiF, and I'd buy it myself, but you fat american middle-aged 'solo' game dreamers are rubbing yourselves into a deluded frenzy thinking that WiF has a sufficiently evolved market for a viable, commercial PC based distribution. Wake up and smell the poo : THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US. It doesn't. Sorry.

Here is the less than 1 minute of attention you deserve troll.

(it would have been less than 30 seconds, but I had to wipe the cheetos stains off my fingers in my Moms basement [:D] ).

Someone get the ban hammer out please. Sheesh.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

I have never played WiF ftf or the old computer version. However I have played DG's computer coversion of SPI's WiE that does not have an AI. I was very pleased (and surprised) at how well it worked playing both sides at the same time. Why? Just like WiF, WiE is a very complex game that is hard to keep track of everything that is happening on a single side you are playing much less both sides. It is possible to 'surprise yoursef' lol.

So I would suggest, that before everyone condems the decision of not having an AI (which we do not know for sure anyway), is to try a game that does not have one and play both sides. That will give you a much better perspective on realasing earlier without an AI (which I truely support btw) or delaying even longer to get the AI in.

I agree Num with you 100% as I have adg's wif and I have learned a lot from it [no AI] and with the rules and the roll of the dice anything can happen. But after awhile it starts to get a little stale, but that is just me probably. I believe that I would be helpless against most of the board game players here and before I could hope to challenge them I would need a lot of practice and one solution would be an AI good, bad or soso.

Bo

When choosing an opponent for NetPlay, I think that the preference in optional rules is going to be a strong indicator of how experienced the player is. If you just play against opponents who want to use the Novice set of optional rules, you are unlikely to run into someone who has been playing the game for years.

Playing against players of roughly equal skill level is a good way to learn. You can gradually work your way up to better players. The converse of this is that if you play against someone who is much, much better, well, neither of you is going to enjoy the game very much.

Uhhhhhhhh Steve, your advice is well taken about netplay, but negative me is reading between the lines and I am not happy about the reading [:-] I will say no more about that until July[;)]

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Hey Dudes.
Some of you might remember my user name. My real name's Tim, and I'm a keen WiFFE enthusiast who plays the game almost daily and who's attended both AusWiFCons, 2010 qnd 2011. I was part of an Allied Team that claimed a draw against skilled European opposition in 2010, and part of an Allied Team that won against Harry Rowland and two of his best freinds in 2011. I think that entitles me to speak with some gravity about WiFFE, regardless of whatever you mostly "armchair", obese, opinionated, american, middle-aged 'solo' WiFFErs might hold as significant insights into how to play the game effectively.

This Computer WiF is a waste of space, commercially speaking. It won't work. I feel sorry for the guy who's been beating his meat designing it for these last few years .. I love WiF, and I'd buy it myself, but you fat american middle-aged 'solo' game dreamers are rubbing yourselves into a deluded frenzy thinking that WiF has a sufficiently evolved market for a viable, commercial PC based distribution. Wake up and smell the poo : THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US. It doesn't. Sorry.

No obesity here just balding, uh whats your name, I feel sorry for you being am alien because you never had a Pat's or Geno's south philly cheesesteak[;)]

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Hey Dudes.
Some of you might remember my user name. My real name's Tim, and I'm a keen WiFFE enthusiast who plays the game almost daily and who's attended both AusWiFCons, 2010 qnd 2011. I was part of an Allied Team that claimed a draw against skilled European opposition in 2010, and part of an Allied Team that won against Harry Rowland and two of his best freinds in 2011. I think that entitles me to speak with some gravity about WiFFE, regardless of whatever you mostly "armchair", obese, opinionated, american, middle-aged 'solo' WiFFErs might hold as significant insights into how to play the game effectively.

This Computer WiF is a waste of space, commercially speaking. It won't work. I feel sorry for the guy who's been beating his meat designing it for these last few years .. I love WiF, and I'd buy it myself, but you fat american middle-aged 'solo' game dreamers are rubbing yourselves into a deluded frenzy thinking that WiF has a sufficiently evolved market for a viable, commercial PC based distribution. Wake up and smell the poo : THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US. It doesn't. Sorry.

Warspite1

My my, what an unpleasant post.

You play a game almost daily? Mmmm, perhaps you may like to get out more - who knows, you may grow up and learn how to communicate with people in proper fashion.

"armchair", obese, opinionated, american, middle-aged 'solo' WiFFErs.
fat american middle-aged 'solo' game dreamers are rubbing yourselves into a deluded frenzy thinking
I feel sorry for the guy who's been beating his meat
Wake up and smell the poo

You pride yourself on being able to speak with gravitas about a game, and of course you could choose to to that, and get your points across in a polite and sensible fashion. But given the wording and tone of your post, I suspect that you are probably incapable of understanding that your post was totally out of order - indeed it would be offensive if you weren't so ridiculous; how old are you for goodness sake? Second thoughts don't answer that, I don't want to know.

Great Warspite, right on, I told you the Crussdaddy's of the world would be rearing their ugly heads soon and here we go right on schedule. Oh lord I love a fight [:@] The forums are waking up and Bo is gearing up [I think that's a wif pun[;)]]
Just kidding, maybe!

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Hey Dudes.
Some of you might remember my user name. My real name's Tim, and I'm a keen WiFFE enthusiast who plays the game almost daily and who's attended both AusWiFCons, 2010 qnd 2011. I was part of an Allied Team that claimed a draw against skilled European opposition in 2010, and part of an Allied Team that won against Harry Rowland and two of his best freinds in 2011. I think that entitles me to speak with some gravity about WiFFE, regardless of whatever you mostly "armchair", obese, opinionated, american, middle-aged 'solo' WiFFErs might hold as significant insights into how to play the game effectively.

This Computer WiF is a waste of space, commercially speaking. It won't work. I feel sorry for the guy who's been beating his meat designing it for these last few years .. I love WiF, and I'd buy it myself, but you fat american middle-aged 'solo' game dreamers are rubbing yourselves into a deluded frenzy thinking that WiF has a sufficiently evolved market for a viable, commercial PC based distribution. Wake up and smell the poo : THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US. It doesn't. Sorry.

Here is the less than 1 minute of attention you deserve troll.

(it would have been less than 30 seconds, but I had to wipe the cheetos stains off my fingers in my Moms basement [:D] ).

Someone get the ban hammer out please. Sheesh.

Klydon everyone is entitled to their oponion, that is why we have forums. [&o] He is not trolling he is expressing his feelings and he is allowed to, as long as no foul language is use I see no reason to ban anyone. With that said I have to agree with you[;)]

Bo

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Hey Dudes.
Some of you might remember my user name. My real name's Tim, and I'm a keen WiFFE enthusiast who plays the game almost daily and who's attended both AusWiFCons, 2010 qnd 2011. I was part of an Allied Team that claimed a draw against skilled European opposition in 2010, and part of an Allied Team that won against Harry Rowland and two of his best freinds in 2011. I think that entitles me to speak with some gravity about WiFFE, regardless of whatever you 'solo' WiFFErs might hold as significant insights into how to play the game effectively.

This Computer WiF is a waste of space, commercially speaking. It won't work. I feel sorry for the guy who's been designing it for these last few years .. I love WiF, and I'd buy it myself, but you 'solo' game dreamers are deluded thinking that WiF has a sufficiently evolved market for a viable, commercial PC based distribution. Wake up: THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US. It doesn't. Sorry.

EDITED by Moderator to remove needless adjectives.

The When thread has 430,700+ hits and the Monthly Reports thread has 16,650+.

The few hundred players you envision must spend a lot of time reading those posts over and over again.