Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

[Nikademus]

indeed. Grand Campaign is so big, that against the AI in particular, i do the planning/organizing in sections per turn. aka, one turn i'll focus on west coast, another Malaya, another Central Pacific, etc etc. Don't have 6 hours every night to do full detailed turn by turn planning. In addition to speeding up the game, it gives the AI a better chance. If i miss an opportunity i can chalk it up to the real delay in command and control. [:D]

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

Genda was a very intelligent and clever chap, the only trouble is he was a bit of an oddball, a real hermit who would retreat into his cabin for literally days on end, not washing shaving or eating whilst he went over a problem. Total focus and concentraction.

I don't think the person you are describing was Genda. This sounds much more like the member on Yamamoto's that they nick-named "Gandhi." I cannot think of his name but he did serve with Yamamoto.

Kuroshima Kameto

[offenseman]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


There are, after all, some sneaky aggressive Player 1's out there and they are good enough to know how to exploit over-aggressiveness on the part of player 2. So in deference to both factors, i tend to garrison first....contemplate offensive later, just like in real life. Suppose it makes me a boring Player 2 but i can be sneaky too with pinprick raids....probably my one great talent in the game. My last trick was a sneak attack on Sydney from KB moving around SOUTHERN Oz from the direction of Perth. Found myself a harbor stuffed full of juicy merchants. yum!

Not so much a boring player 2, but rather one that does not make the mistake of trying to hit back too early. I can only imagine the frustration of Allied players who watch their forces steamrolled backward for months. The temptation to be hasty in hitting back has to be hard to resist. The Allied player that stays disciplined and realizes that their day will come sooner if they retain their strength is harder for someone like me to play against. Its a long war... be patient.

[Mundy]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

indeed. Grand Campaign is so big, that against the AI in particular, i do the planning/organizing in sections per turn. aka, one turn i'll focus on west coast, another Malaya, another Central Pacific, etc etc. Don't have 6 hours every night to do full detailed turn by turn planning. In addition to speeding up the game, it gives the AI a better chance. If i miss an opportunity i can chalk it up to the real delay in command and control. [:D]

That makes me feel better, Nik. It's good to know I don't have to feel n00b-ish doing this. (Not that I'm completely clueless about the game system -- just the scale.) [:D]

I had to go back to posts in August to figure out how to get the India supply machine rolling. I guess in my game, the British were stunned for two weeks before getting the ball rolling. No more free lunch from Karachi. [:)]

M-

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

Genda was a very intelligent and clever chap, the only trouble is he was a bit of an oddball, a real hermit who would retreat into his cabin for literally days on end, not washing shaving or eating whilst he went over a problem. Total focus and concentraction.

I don't think the person you are describing was Genda. This sounds much more like the member on Yamamoto's that they nick-named "Gandhi." I cannot think of his name but he did serve with Yamamoto.

Kuroshima Kameto

THAT is his name! Thank you. You saved a trip to the library in the basement.

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: JWE

Looking at this Manila v PH thing, it is in my mind that Japan would employ a bit of the flexibility represented in thier operational designations. The KB was not as monolithic as many would assume. Given a Southern orientation, I might bifurcate the KB. Manila/Clark would be an opportunity strike; it would not be in support of immediate ground ops, and would not require the full KB. If Manila, then definitely Malaya; opportunity strikes on Singapore and support of immediate ground ops.

So .. I might send CarRon 5, augmented by Zuiho or Ryujo, to carry out an opportunity strike against the Manila/Clark area. Further, I might send CarRons 1 and 2, augmented by Ryujo or Zuiho, to carry out an opportunity strike against Singapore and support the Malaya landings. If I had really big ones, I might even run an augmented CarRon 1 against Singapore and use CarRon 2 in support of a Mersing gambit.

Problem here John. While the Japanese had operated their CV's off the China coast since 1937, they had never ventured further South. Having even part of KB show up off Indo-China in December of 1941 would be a major sign that war was immanent and should allow an Allied response. So while the Philippines aren't a problem, Malaya is.

Didnt KB operate near North the Vietnam for Canton and Hainan ? It could launch a strike in Southern China allong with a dummy offensive there. Agree further south is risky from an Intel op which would alert Singapore , PI and PH .

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: bklooste

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

Problem here John. While the Japanese had operated their CV's off the China coast since 1937, they had never ventured further South. Having even part of KB show up off Indo-China in December of 1941 would be a major sign that war was immanent and should allow an Allied response. So while the Philippines aren't a problem, Malaya is.

Didn't KB operate near North Vietnam for Canton and Hainan ? It could launch a strike in Southern China along with a dummy offensive there. Agree further south is risky from an Intel op which would alert Singapore , PI and PH .

Yes.., two CV's operated off Canton to support the landings there. KB wasn't formed at this time, so they operated by CarDiv's. But with Indo-China and Siam already occupied or under Japan's thumb, moving the KB that far South would be a dead givaway in December 1941. Unlike crossing the barren North Pacific in winter to get to PH, there was simply no way the KB could go very much South of Japan without being observed. Supporting China could provide some excuse (though with plenty of land bases in China, even that was going to be a "red flag"), but anywhere else would be practically "causus beli".

[xj900uk]

Kuroshima Kameto

Many thanks - sorry, got Genda and 'Ghandi' mixed up!

As a bloke who's done both sides in PBEM, i can tell you its usually the opposite in WitP due to hindsight and god-like control. Player 2 most often jumps right out of the gate in anything but shock and immediately starts moves to counter the Japanese onslaught. This often makes for a frustrating experience as Player 1 when trying to follow the historical path of invasion using traditional methods (as opposed to the leap foward and work back technique)

This is why KB's exact location is so crucial as it's one of the few brakes due to risk of ambush. Once it reveals itself, player 2 knows where he can quickly counterattack with better chance of success.

Of course if the IJ player can catch at least one of the US carrier groups immediately after PH or in the first 6 months of the war somehow manuoevere the Allied player in to a 'decisive battle' in the W Pacific, it opens up a whole new kettle of worms... If the IJ player is agressive enough (and up until the F4F4's + TBF's start to arrive he will never have a better opportunity) he can set traps or situations (attack something vital enough that the US will be forced to defend) although if the Allied player is defensivly minded or refuses to take the bait, then (in theory) the IJ player could go on a bit of a 'shipping spree' and make things so much harder for the Allied player (take lots of W Pacific islands like Fiji, Pago Pago, Suvai, Canton, Palmyra, Johnson, even Midway) whilst in the east after polishing off the DEI simply by taking Cocos and Christmas Isles (IO) and building up the airbases there to mount Nellies to pick off any shipping and supply freighters in the Southern Indian Ocean...

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: xj900uk
Of course if the IJ player can catch at least one of the US carrier groups immediately after PH or in the first 6 months of the war somehow manuoevere the Allied player in to a 'decisive battle' in the W Pacific, it opens up a whole new kettle of worms... If the IJ player is agressive enough (and up until the F4F4's + TBF's start to arrive he will never have a better opportunity) he can set traps or situations (attack something vital enough that the US will be forced to defend) although if the Allied player is defensivly minded or refuses to take the bait, then (in theory) the IJ player could go on a bit of a 'shipping spree' and make things so much harder for the Allied player (take lots of W Pacific islands like Fiji, Pago Pago, Suvai, Canton, Palmyra, Johnson, even Midway) whilst in the east after polishing off the DEI simply by taking Cocos and Christmas Isles (IO) and building up the airbases there to mount Nellies to pick off any shipping and supply freighters in the Southern Indian Ocean...

Now that you mention it, as Player 2, on turn one thats sometimes the one "move" i'll make before ending the turn. (muddling the course/speed of my CV TF's in case KB goes hunting on turn one. I've yet to ever have a carrier TF get caught nor have i played a player 1 who would gamble not hitting Pearl Harbor on Turn 1 in favor of trying to ambush a single carrier TF. Carriers are valuable but one carrier is'nt worth sacrificing the damage that is usually done to PH in my book...and apparantly the book of the opponents i've faced. As player one, on turn2+ i've on occasion tried to go hunting but have never caught a USN CV TF. The ocean is too big to make it anything other than a crap shoot. one-two turns of full speed movement puts alot of hexes between the CV TF's starting positions and where they end up in each new game.

Wake can be the trap though. It's one of hindsight's little tempting targets. Lure in a CV TF to it and then one might get a prize inside the box.

[xj900uk]

Agree 100%. At the time of PH the US has two carrier groups 'out', Big-E and Lady Lex both of which are between PH and Wake. The closest to Wake can afford to dally only for long as the one furthest awya takes to get there, if they bump into the 1st Wake invasion force they should be able to send it to the bottom.
However, it is logical to assume the KB will be hunting for them from 8th Dec onwards, so after hitting Wake they should go immediately SW to Noumea although Ekniwok can be a bit of a hot potato - have a good cap in case the Nellies come calling...

[Nikademus]

LOL. On turn 2 of my new GC mod test.....the AI just hit Enterprise at max range using 111 x B5N's. (and bombs) Ent is badly damaged and burning out of control. May lose her. Thought i'd waypointed her out of the way enough but apparantly i was wrong. That dastardly AI is an AWESOME opponent. Acomplished what a dozen PBEM opponents could'nt achieve [:D]

I DEMAND A RESTART!

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: bklooste

FatR expereinces are iMHO more normal esp with dud torps, i dont understand how you can get so many hits in the DEI as these shoudl be well escorted troop convoys ( and he should have some naval search up unless he is suicidal) though you can get lucky with some war ships.  Supply and resources convoys dont really move through there till later.

If you go by the 1 ship in 11 days  you get 100 or so ships in the war .  As this is reduced by the fact these subs will be attritioned  and not all subs are from Manilla i think 100 or so ships is right.

I have to disagree to an extent....at least in terms of it depends on the deployment of those Manila subs and the reaction of the Japanese opponent. Not blowing my trumpet here but I'm generally pretty good with subs IMO and as an example from my current PBEM here's the ships totals due to subs so far to give you the other end of the spectrum view. Of course this is with the SRA sub force as a whole. This is by the end of April 1942:

Sub kills:

Dutch Boats:

AK - 16
CM - 2
PB - 1
DMS - 3
TB - 1
APD - 1
DD - 2
TK - 2

----------------------------------

British Boats:

DD - 1 (mine)
SC - 1
TK - 1

----------------------------------

Fleet Boats:

AP - 1
AK - 24
CM - 1
DD - 2
E - 1

----------------------------------

S-Boats:

AK - 5
CM - 1

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

LOL. On turn 2 of my new GC mod test.....the AI just hit Enterprise at max range using 111 x B5N's. (and bombs) Ent is badly damaged and burning out of control. May lose her. Thought i'd waypointed her out of the way enough but apparantly i was wrong. That dastardly AI is an AWESOME opponent. Acomplished what a dozen PBEM opponents could'nt achieve [:D]

I DEMAND A RESTART!

Based at Truk or Rabaul?

The Japanese did do that early in the real campaign. Attrition eventually saw them off.

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

ORIGINAL: bklooste

FatR expereinces are iMHO more normal esp with dud torps, i dont understand how you can get so many hits in the DEI as these shoudl be well escorted troop convoys ( and he should have some naval search up unless he is suicidal) though you can get lucky with some war ships.  Supply and resources convoys dont really move through there till later.

If you go by the 1 ship in 11 days  you get 100 or so ships in the war .  As this is reduced by the fact these subs will be attritioned  and not all subs are from Manilla i think 100 or so ships is right.

I have to disagree to an extent....at least in terms of it depends on the deployment of those Manila subs and the reaction of the Japanese opponent. Not blowing my trumpet here but I'm generally pretty good with subs IMO and as an example from my current PBEM here's the ships totals due to subs so far to give you the other end of the spectrum view. Of course this is with the SRA sub force as a whole. This is by the end of April 1942:

Sub kills:

Dutch Boats:

AK - 16
CM - 2
PB - 1
DMS - 3
TB - 1
APD - 1
DD - 2
TK - 2

----------------------------------

British Boats:

DD - 1 (mine)
SC - 1
TK - 1

----------------------------------

Fleet Boats:

AP - 1
AK - 24
CM - 1
DD - 2
E - 1

----------------------------------

S-Boats:

AK - 5
CM - 1

Do you have a break down of what the fleet subs at Manilla did though .. were not taliing about the rest . They have crappy torpedos the whole war.

[Speedysteve]

I can't be 100% precise but I know that Fleet Boats have only been active and successful from either Manila or some from the Aleutians. Aleutian boats have sunk about 7 x AK's. The rest of the ships have been sunk by Manila based Fleet Boats. Also all of the S-Boats kills have been in the SRA from Manila based boats.

I am fairly sure though that my results could be near the other end of the bell curve. Maybe the average is somewhere in the middle between my results and the lower/less successful results.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: herwin


Based at Truk or Rabaul?

The Japanese did do that early in the real campaign. Attrition eventually saw them off.

Based at Kido Butai.