The PERFECT WAR Mod

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

D'OH, you're right. It's still plus 1,000 tons for the extra fuel, though. Compromise at about 48.5k?

Sounds right.

[JuanG]

The 9,500nm one without turret rearrangement is 48,035t to be exact. Full displacement is 53,732t. Fuel bunkerage is 5,697t. Remember standard displacement is does not include fuel, so any impact on that is indirect (extra structure etc).

The ships should, as stated earlier, fit in existing yards, as they are comparable to the Shokaku in length and the Nagato in beam. They are notably smaller dimensions wise than the No.13 Fast BB's, though slightly bulkier (higher Cb).

Compared to OTL Yamato's, these cost around 80% of them according to SpringSharp, but take that with a grain of salt. The savings come mostly from the primary battery guns and turrets, the lack of an intermediate battery, and the shorter armour surface area compared to Yamato.

Terminus, that second version you posted looks perfect except for those tonnage/fuel tweaks mentioned above.

[John 3rd]

If you three think this is doable then I have no issue. A reduction of 20% or so off the costs of the Yamato's is something...

Does this mean the USA gets their Montana's? [:@]

[JuanG]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

If you three think this is doable then I have no issue. A reduction of 20% or so off the costs of the Yamato's is something...

Does this mean the USA gets their Montana's? [:@]

As I said, thats only a ballpark figure. Since this weapon is a more direct evolution of the 410mm/45 on the Nagato's, theres probably some savings in the development costs for the weapon plus projectiles. If the 155mm/60 is not developed at all (Mogami CA's are built directly with 8in guns?), then theres another. Standardizing the powerplant with the Shokaku (or equivalent) at say 152,000shp could save some more.

Not sure what the US reaction to a ship like this would be. For some reason an 18" gunned Iowa comes to mind. Could be 3x2 and current sized, or Montana-esque at 3x3. Unlikely they would know the capabilities of this ship until 44-45 though, unless it engaged the US battleline. Armour is easier to hide than gun caliber, somewhat.

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

If you three think this is doable then I have no issue. A reduction of 20% or so off the costs of the Yamato's is something...

Does this mean the USA gets their Montana's? [:@]

Probably only if Japanese completely reverse their policies and boast about building battelships with 460mm cannons[:D]. More Iowas are likely to be built otherwise (as discussed before, at least two, plus all initially intended Alaskas, but the latter are more of a response to Japanese cruisers) - they will be believed more than sufficient to handle those, considering how much Yamato class was underestimated by American intelligence.

And unless these ships clash with the American BBs very early in the war, the answer to everything is "more Essexes" anyway[:)].

[FatR]

The final proposal for Owari-class battleship. Includes ammo increase as used in JuanG's mods/RA, so the split of the forward turret groups is employed, just in case. I haven't increased the ammo for flak MGs, though. In my experience, at least with Japanese 25mms, they fire not nearly as often as DP guns under the current patch, probably mostly when their ships are attacked directly. Initial small-calibre flak armament is bit less anemic than on Yamato, thanks to overall direction of the mod. 4-6 13.2mm or 25mm singles should also be installed, beyond what is on screen.


Terminus, can you, please, post the modified ship art here?

[FatR]

One more thing, John. As we're gradually starting to design ships already, if we want to base this mod's development of DaBabes, it's better to decide this now, so that we'll need to input all the same ships again (I'm not sure if copying statblocks between two editor's windows is supposed to work, but it doesn't on my PC). I'd prefer to go all-out with realism and use BigBabes Scen C (I think, though, this scenario needs more oil on map, as overall reduction in cargo ships carrying capacity by about 1/3rd, not only makes hauling cargoes more difficult, but also increases fuel consumption, which easily can lead to swift economic collapse of the Japanese Empire).

[John 3rd]

Like using the Scen C version of Da Babes. They have already said it is OK to use it so it seems appropriate.

Don't think we should get more carried away then where we are with the new BBs until we have settled onto everything else.

If time allows I am going to create the Japanese 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Circle Plans as we have designed them. Want to make sure everything is good there and we agree then the warship side of this is settled. We can move to IJN Air and LCU as well as IJA Air and LCU.

On the IJN LCU side of things I think we should examine the SNLF units as well as BF. The units that are able to combine into one IRL are pretty strong. I would propose we create some sort of lean and mean equivalent to the Marine CD Battalion. Perhaps about 3,000 men with CD, Engineers, some Artillery, and strong Infantry. Call it an Atoll Defense Force. The Japanese would start with several created and get a steady stream of them as reinforcements during 1942/1943. Additionally more small SNLF Coy and IJN BF Coy for providing minor garrisons and AF capability across the Pacific.

[FatR]

I think you have good ideas, about LCUs, but don't go too far overboard. I'll probably have some proposals about ground weapons later.

I shall use DaBigBabes C as the basis for my ship classes and other work for the moment. Unfortunately, due to TOEs changes this will apparently require reworking the device list all over again... Argh. I won't touch anything but devices and ship classes at the moment, so you can enter changes in other categories, such as LCUs, if you wish.

[John 3rd]

It is gonna suck...

This is why I think we settle on EVERYTHING and then start the tedious work. This is MUCH funner!

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Like using the Scen C version of Da Babes. They have already said it is OK to use it so it seems appropriate.

Don't think we should get more carried away then where we are with the new BBs until we have settled onto everything else.

If time allows I am going to create the Japanese 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Circle Plans as we have designed them. Want to make sure everything is good there and we agree then the warship side of this is settled. We can move to IJN Air and LCU as well as IJA Air and LCU.

On the IJN LCU side of things I think we should examine the SNLF units as well as BF. The units that are able to combine into one IRL are pretty strong. I would propose we create some sort of lean and mean equivalent to the Marine CD Battalion. Perhaps about 3,000 men with CD, Engineers, some Artillery, and strong Infantry. Call it an Atoll Defense Force. The Japanese would start with several created and get a steady stream of them as reinforcements during 1942/1943. Additionally more small SNLF Coy and IJN BF Coy for providing minor garrisons and AF capability across the Pacific.

Where are all the men going to come from? We have a lot more IJN ships coming on line, and SNLF people are naval personnel, so I think we're looking at an either/or situation.

[Terminus]

Attached is a .zip file with side and shil for the A-140 battleship. Try not to lose it.

[FatR]

Thanks for the art again, Terminus!

I'd like to think things through fist and start writing them down later, but, knowing myself, I fear that I might start forgetting things before we're done...

As about manpower for extra garrizon units, the most expedient and least politically volatile solution probably is not for IJN to hog as much responsibilities as it can, but to ask the Army nicely for South Seas Garrizon units as soon as hostilities begin (and begin favorably). Hopefully in this alternative logistical problems, associated with difference in weapon systems, should be much reduced. TOE upgrades for existing SNLFs, reflecting their shift towards island defence units, also might be scheduled.

[Terminus]

I think you have to be REALLY careful assuming any sort of cooperation between the IJA and IJN. The inter-service loathing was legendary, and there's no realistic way to reduce it dramatically.

[Terminus]

Anyhoo, converting the various SNLFs to defence battalions is obvious. Have them withdraw at some point and come back with a defence battalion TOE. SNLFs are offensive units and at some point, Japan WILL have to go defensive.

[John 3rd]

That was my exact thought Sir. We'll have lots of CD guns from the upgrades done to warships during the war so we're good there as well.

[FatR]

One last note on battleships: I believe the art for Kaga-class battleships and fast Ise/Fuso conversions I've found in my install directory, actually belongs to JuanG. It seems I thought his Enhanced mods are gone after reinstalling the game in the same directory. Stupid me.

So, Juan, can we use it? Pretty please[:)]?


Returning to Japanese cruisers as promised. After more deliberations and reading, I think there are two exceedingly obvious attempts to cheat their way out of treaties in the previously proposed program. First is building exact same ships as CAs and CLs. This will raise too many questions about the class that already is one of the most egregious treaty violations. Second is downgrading old CAs to CLs. While technically not forbidden, this is likely to elicit appropriate response from other nations, something that is undesirable. This does not mean, that it can't be done. Historically the four second-class CAs underwent their reconstructions with replacing of the main armament starting from summer of 1936. So they can be rearmed to 9x155 before the war, they cannot really be used to free more tonnage to CAs under the London treaty.

Meanwhile, mikemike's proposal on picking another prototype for Japanese 155mm cannons enables us to create CLs that are practically as good as CAs.

So, at the moment I think that, first, the Mogami division should be built as IRL, except with these better cannons, and never convert to CAs. Furutaka, Kako, Aoba and Kinugasa should be rearmed to 155mm cannons during their reconstruction in the second half of thirties. However, this means, that Japan, with more lenient Washington treaty, will have a bit more free tonnage in both CA and CL categories, but not enough by far to form a full cruiser division of either, moreover, until about 1935 and the decision to leave the treaties, they will have to struggle with the fact that anything more ambitions than Mogami is a too brazen tonnage limit violation... What to build, and what can be built, then? I'll need to read a bit more to formulate a modified proposal. Will be glad to hear any ideas meanwhile.

[John 3rd]

If I clearly understand what you are saying it is:

1. The 4 Mogami's come in as 6" CLs with 5 triple turrets.

AND

2. The 4 Aoba's convert to CLs with 3x3 6" turrets as well.

The Aoba conversion would free up 32,000T for CA. If correct the Treaty Tonnage would allow for three more Takao CAs. Japan would start with 8 solid CLs and have several new CAs. This seems good to me.

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

If I clearly understand what you are saying it is:

1. The 4 Mogami's come in as 6" CLs with 5 triple turrets.

AND

2. The 4 Aoba's convert to CLs with 3x3 6" turrets as well.

The Aoba conversion would free up 32,000T for CA. If correct the Treaty Tonnage would allow for three more Takao CAs. Japan would start with 8 solid CLs and have several new CAs. This seems good to me.

No, I'm not saying that. I've stated that CA->CL conversion of old cruisers is an obvious way to cheat the treaty, and will cause response by other fleets. We don't want that. But IRL funds for reconstruction of these cruisers with replacing their main guns were only available from 1936 and later. So we can still reconstruct them as CLs. We just can't use this to free tonnage in the first half of thirties.

So, at the moment I'm studying the Lacroix/Wells Japanese Cruisers of the Pacific War to see what can be built on tonnage left by modified Washington treaty, besides a division of Mogamis.

[John 3rd]

Got that book. It is valuable.