The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

[John 3rd]

What does everyone think? A number of you had put forth these ideas. Would love to get a ranking of--from your view--what the Top Five or so choices would be?

[DOCUP]

What type of mod are you all looking for?  Yea, I know thats clear as mud.  Are you looking for something between Scen 1 and Scen 2. Or something else. 
 
I like the ideas out there.  I alos think that the Allies should be caught off guard and weak at the begining.  But it looks like the other side is getting some interesting stuff.  Maybe once the war starts and the Intel of the Allies get working more stuff can be added to them then. 
 
doc

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

What does everyone think? A number of you had put forth these ideas. Would love to get a ranking of--from your view--what the Top Five or so choices would be?

Assuming that the US does a better job detecting the IJN build-up I look at soe of the possibilities.

1. Wasp being built as the 4th yorktown could be justified by saying Ranger would be decommisioned to offset the tonnage. Considering the fact that she was used as a glorified AKV during her war time deployments, this is not too outlandish. Of course with the outbreak of the war, Ranger would have still been used as an aircraft ferry. One could even say that as Wasp was being built it was decided to send Ranger to the RN as Lend/Lease.

2. I think the proposed increases in the Atoll/Island defenses is reasonable. We are not talking about sending a division to the Aleutians or Guam so I don't see that as a biggie.

3. I would have to agree that the AAA enhancements to the BB supposes a level of precognition that is a bit of a leap. Perhaps allow them instead as upgrades in early '42 (of course we are talking about a lot of yard time for that)

4. Personally I would like to see the RAN get a few more DD's than the RAAF get a handful of marginal airframes. Even a few more capable ASW patrol craft would be nice.

5. To further the above point, the Wirraway's were light attack aircraft not fighters. I would think something like A-24's upgrading to A-26 would be more reasonable.

Normally not one to be into the "what if" stuff but I must admit this project has caught my interest

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: vettim89
1. Wasp being built as the 4th yorktown could be justified by saying Ranger would be decommisioned to offset the tonnage. Considering the fact that she was used as a glorified AKV during her war time deployments, this is not too outlandish. Of course with the outbreak of the war, Ranger would have still been used as an aircraft ferry. One could even say that as Wasp was being built it was decided to send Ranger to the RN as Lend/Lease.

I think this is a reasonable suggestion.

[ny59giants]

USA
1. I like the idea of a few extra DDs as the Allies are short of them in early 42.

2. The Wasp coming in as a Yorktown Class CV is nice. [:)]

5. I would place some of the Idaho Class BBs at Cape Town as they would be able to deploy to either ocean.

7. Have large enough BFs at Midway, Wake, and Guam to support three extra PBYs squadrons to be able to conduct search as America continues to 'monitor' Japanese build up and movement prior to outbreak of war.

Britain
I would like more Catlinas per search group. If not the American size of 12 then from size 6 to 9 with increase in production, slightly.

If your going to add Hurricane and/or Spits, then Japan gets to move the Tojo up to April or May. Good pilot skills in Hurricane or Spits will eat the Oscars for lunch.

If you make Malaya that much tougher to conquer, then Japan will need something else to counter it.

Australia
I would like Sydney's repair shipyard to be able to take one CV or BB. So is 35,000 reasonable??

Economy
Whatever can be moved to on map is great. Basing most at Port Stanley and require significant supply to get it up and running and require monthly supply runs to prevent it from running out. Most of USA/Canada HI and LI should need lots of supply to repair and ramp up. In mid-May 42 I now have over 15 million supply on the map, way too much.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

What type of mod are you all looking for?  Yea, I know thats clear as mud.  Are you looking for something between Scen 1 and Scen 2. Or something else. 

I like the ideas out there.  I alos think that the Allies should be caught off guard and weak at the begining.  But it looks like the other side is getting some interesting stuff.  Maybe once the war starts and the Intel of the Allies get working more stuff can be added to them then. 

doc

Between Scen 1 and 2: Definitely!

[John 3rd]

Vettim Thanks for the contribution. It has been a fun ride with all the commentary.

Good suggestions from both you and Michael.

The on-site economy seems to me to be a BIG one. It requires fuel and supply as well as PLANNING. Think it would be GREAT!

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

What does everyone think? A number of you had put forth these ideas. Would love to get a ranking of--from your view--what the Top Five or so choices would be?

Assuming that the US does a better job detecting the IJN build-up I look at soe of the possibilities.

1. Wasp being built as the 4th yorktown could be justified by saying Ranger would be decommisioned to offset the tonnage. Considering the fact that she was used as a glorified AKV during her war time deployments, this is not too outlandish. Of course with the outbreak of the war, Ranger would have still been used as an aircraft ferry. One could even say that as Wasp was being built it was decided to send Ranger to the RN as Lend/Lease.

Really LIKE this idea bunches.

2. I think the proposed increases in the Atoll/Island defenses is reasonable. We are not talking about sending a division to the Aleutians or Guam so I don't see that as a biggie.

Small additions would help and couple that to Michael's suggestion of some PBY detachments out at these outposts and one might have a pretty interesting idea.

3. I would have to agree that the AAA enhancements to the BB supposes a level of precognition that is a bit of a leap. Perhaps allow them instead as upgrades in early '42 (of course we are talking about a lot of yard time for that)

[color=#CC000]How about have the Upgrades ready on Dec 7th. The BBs go through the PH Attack and have the immediate option?[/color]

4. Personally I would like to see the RAN get a few more DD's than the RAAF get a handful of marginal airframes. Even a few more capable ASW patrol craft would be nice.

What about adding Renown and 4-6 DD to Force? What the Allied player does is his choice...

5. To further the above point, the Wirraway's were light attack aircraft not fighters. I would think something like A-24's upgrading to A-26 would be more reasonable.

HATE A-24s! Concur that perhaps we could pull a couple of the Wirraway's and change them for A-24 and, perhaps, some early P-40s?

Normally not one to be into the "what if" stuff but I must admit this project has caught my interest

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

USA
1. I like the idea of a few extra DDs as the Allies are short of them in early 42.

How about we add this: 4 modern DDs at Manila or with Houston and add a pair of DDs to Lexington/Enterprise's TF as well as the TF starting in the south-central Pacific? A total of 10 newer DDs added to the US start.

2. The Wasp coming in as a Yorktown Class CV is nice. [:)]

Already touched on...

5. I would place some of the Idaho Class BBs at Cape Town as they would be able to deploy to either ocean.

Capetown is possible or the TF with the BBs could be at the Panama Canal...

7. Have large enough BFs at Midway, Wake, and Guam to support three extra PBYs squadrons to be able to conduct search as America continues to 'monitor' Japanese build up and movement prior to outbreak of war.

Already touched on...

Britain
I would like more Catlinas per search group. If not the American size of 12 then from size 6 to 9 with increase in production, slightly.

Reasonable.

If your going to add Hurricane and/or Spits, then Japan gets to move the Tojo up to April or May. Good pilot skills in Hurricane or Spits will eat the Oscars for lunch.

ANYTHING that could get me Tojo's earlier is GREAT!

If you make Malaya that much tougher to conquer, then Japan will need something else to counter it.

Australia
I would like Sydney's repair shipyard to be able to take one CV or BB. So is 35,000 reasonable??

LIKE this. Could simply start it totally damaged so supply must be spent to fix it.

Economy
Whatever can be moved to on map is great. Basing most at Port Stanley and require significant supply to get it up and running and require monthly supply runs to prevent it from running out. Most of USA/Canada HI and LI should need lots of supply to repair and ramp up. In mid-May 42 I now have over 15 million supply on the map, way too much.

Commented on.

MORE?

[oldman45]

ORIGINAL: FatR

I'm back here. Sorry if I'm going to be answering to already-discussed ideas.

ORIGINAL: oldman45

As far as the French Navy, just don't have the creation of the Vichy French. Have the government flee to England and the fleet goes to Africa. Then you can figure out what stays in the Med, what goes to the Atlantic and what ever is left can come to the Pacific.

... On that note: this will overturn the entire political situation that led to the war.

It doesn't have to. There are no treaties in the West that effect the Pacific. If Japan at the end of 1940 goes to the governor and tells him he needs their assistance in controlling the natives (pick a reason) what is he going to do to stop them?

[CaptBeefheart]

A lot of good ideas. Here are some additional things to consider:

1. Would it make sense to have the Big 5 BBs be partially upgraded? Say the reboilering and other non-AA work done as of Dec. 7, with an AA upgrade offered from Dec. 8?

2. If JFBs get the Tojo early, then AFBs get the F4U's development accelerated. Deal?

3. The French naval OOB above seems to powerful, and an Allied Indochina would have to be balanced by significant additions of IJA (and maybe IJN) assets. How about New Caledonia and Tahiti get a couple of DDs and a CL or CA, and Legoinairre regt and a couple of squadrons of Dewoitine 520s or lesser fighters, Farman 222s (HB) and Bloch 174s (recon) or others and with the other naval units and a few ground units and squadrons to come as reinforcements? Mombasa gets a drydock and some nominal forces to represent Madagascar (or else mod the map to add Madagascar).

Cheers,
CC

[JeffroK]

. To further the above point, the Wirraway's were light attack aircraft not fighters. I would think something like A-24's upgrading to A-26 would be more reasonable.

HATE A-24s! Concur that perhaps we could pull a couple of the Wirraway's and change them for A-24 and, perhaps, some early P-40s?

BUT The RAAF having no fighters used the Wirraway as a frontline fighter until the Zeke taught them better, having a pool of 100 SE Fighters of the P43/P66/P400 type would be a 200% inmprovement. Still some space for something else (I think the RAAF was looking at the Brewster Buccaneer for a while)

Put a Regiment into Legaspi.

I hate seeing free landings, as the tail of Luzon is undefended I would like to see a set up where they have to fight for the beaches.

Re Defence Bns/Bases forces at Guam/Midway/Wake
Why? As I mentioned before, Guam is too isolated to serve any useful purpose, until the supposed Pacific offensive relieves it, and Wake/Midway aren't seen as immediately threatened.
Sometimes you do silly things for political reasons. I'm not looking at sitting a Regiment on the island. Guam, being a US Territory, could be seen as sticking one in the eye of the Emperor! Wake was building its defences/airbase IRL, why not have it done a bit earlier. I'm only looking at a Base force to service a dozen aircraft and maybe a Def Bn (-) with 4 x 3" CD and some AAA.

I'm wary of adding a CV to Force Z, I dont see it lasting out the opening day. It might look flash but given the japanese occupation of French Indo China, Singapore is stuck out on a limb and with the IJAAF ruling the skies is a death trap for Allied shipping. IFF you set up Force Z somewhere else might make it better.

Is there any thought of better Allied aircraft development, the USAAF version of Tigercat, maybe some of the bugs solved earlier on Corsair, B29 etc

[DOCUP]

1.  I like your idea of adding the 10 DDs to various places.
2.  I second Commander Cody's part on the BBs have them go thru most of there refitsbefor PH attack and then get AAA after.
3.  French OOB depends on what way Indo-China goes.  But adding some French subs could be a middle ground for US subs.  Use the French subs instead of making US torps work or adding a different class.  If you understand what I mean.
4.  I like adding some troops and Const Bns to Guam, Wake, PP etc.
5.  Agree with Jeff on Force Z don't add a carrier to it.  Just more points for Japan.  I really like Terminus's Force Z. 
6.  Having I think you said the 18th Div in a TF would be nice.
7.  Having a bigger repair yard at Sydeny is nice, even with having to fix it. 
 
doc

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody
3. The French naval OOB above seems to powerful, and an Allied Indochina would have to be balanced by significant additions of IJA (and maybe IJN) assets. How about New Caledonia and Tahiti get a couple of DDs and a CL or CA, and Legoinairre regt and a couple of squadrons of Dewoitine 520s or lesser fighters, Farman 222s (HB) and Bloch 174s (recon) or others and with the other naval units and a few ground units and squadrons to come as reinforcements? Mombasa gets a drydock and some nominal forces to represent Madagascar (or else mod the map to add Madagascar).

If I remember correctly, New Caledonia was the only French holding in the Pacific to have declared for DeGaulle"s Free French rather than Vichy. Would make sense that French Forces who still wanted to fight to rally there...

[John 3rd]

OK. Lets start a list of confirmed additions that are reasonable and add a bit of fun for the Allied player:

USA
1. Wasp as Yorktown-Class (with adjusted Air Groups).
2. Addition of 10 newer DDs (2 Porter, 4 Mahan, and 4 Sims--4 of these in Philippines)
3. Partial refit of the Big 5 makes some sense. Everything done but the AA...
4. Strengthen the Air Pipeline along lines already detailed earlier:
a. Wake, Midway, and Guam: add small, dedicated BF, fill out Defense Btn, and raise Forts by 1. Perhaps pull PBY from PH (or add one or two new units) and base at these locations.
IDEA: Why not base the Marine Fighters AND Vindicators at Wake? REALLY would provide something for the Japanese to think about...
b. Con Bn at Christmas, Pago-Pago, Suva, and Noumea
c. Dutch Harbor gains a Con Bn
d. AS with several S-Boats (like in RA) based at Pago Pago as well as Dutch Harbor

PHIL
1. Add an Inf unit to Legaspi. Could simply pull one from a location on Luzon and place it there.
2. Fill out Fighters a bit more (adding 12-18), add a B-25 Squadron and an A-20 squadron
3. Add 4 newer DDs to the Houston or Boise TF or in Manila.
4. Raise Forts in Bataan by 1 and add 20,000 supply at this base.

BRIT
1. Add BC Renown and 4 DD to Force Z
2. Add one Hurricane Squadron to Singapore as well as add 12-18 more Buffalos. Look to see about filling out Vildebreest and/or Swordfish
3. Add 3rd Reg to the two Indian Divisions in Malaya
4. HOW ABOUT the rest of the ships detailed in Term's Force Z: Indomitable, Belfast and a couple of DDs are at sea along the west coast of India? This TF could be escorting the 18th Brit ID...

AUST:
1. A REAL repair yard at Sydney that is slotted to massively expand. Takes supply to do so.
2. Switch out 2 Wirraway for A-24
3. Add some older Fighters to the Pool as mentioned (P-36, Buffalo, P-400, etc...)

FRENCH
1. Add a STF of 1 CA, 1 CL, 4 DD, 4 SS to New Caledonia and Tahiti.
2. Would need Tenders (AKE/AS) and a few AK/AP
3. Legionairre Rgt at NC or Tahiti, and a BF at each location
4. Move the French DD already in the game to join these units.
5. Am not sure about French Aircraft...
6. Could add repair facilities at Mombasa to reflect Madegascar

ECONOMY
Add on-site facilities as described earlier.

How about this? Certainly would provide some new additions to the Allies and make it much more exciting for the Japanese to 'deal' with!''

Think we must let Indochina go as Japanese. Just creates TOO many issues to think about. Of course we can use the story that Indochina was just taken as the Free French were arriving and this forced the TF, Legionairre Rgt and BF to divert all the way to New Caledonia or Tahiti.

Other ideas?

[oldman45]

I wouldn't add the French planes only because there is a real life precedent where planes flew to the UK and a squadron was created. Before the end of 1940 all the planes were gone due to lack of spares. In my mod the few French planes I have are sea planes that convert to US types in 42.

[oldman45]

I like the idea of adding a squadron for French subs to balance out the US torp issue. I would not change the US torps only because they (BUORD) wasn't going to believe there was a problem till the shooting started and even then it took the depot in PH to get their attention.

[Terminus]

The MN had no dedicated submarine tenders.

[JWE]

Ok, John, putting on my nasty hat:

There is no way, no how, that a Naval Power would deploy any significant elements of thier Fleet, especially half way round the world into a "third world" region, without having a major Naval Base or a significant Fleet Train element, in-area.

The Brits couldn't do squat till '44-'45 when they brought their Train thru the Canal (and that's even with Colombo in-hand). The French eventually deployed 1/5 of their Naval assets in SE Asia, but that was only because a portion of the Brit Fleet Train was politically ordered to support them.

French Fleet was a Mediterranean counter to the Italians. As such, they had doo-doo for out-of-area support. For additions to the opening day festivities, I can see maybe a DesDiv, and stretching it a bit, a DesDiv and a CL, or maybe even a DesRon (but doubt it). But that's about it. Anything else is utter fantasy and completely unsuportable, by any rational metric.

Ciao. Mr Nasty John.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: JWE

Ok, John, putting on my nasty hat:

There is no way, no how, that a Naval Power would deploy any significant elements of thier Fleet, especially half way round the world into a "third world" region, without having a major Naval Base or a significant Fleet Train element, in-area.

The Brits couldn't do squat till '44-'45 when they brought their Train thru the Canal (and that's even with Colombo in-hand). The French eventually deployed 1/5 of their Naval assets in SE Asia, but that was only because a portion of the Brit Fleet Train was politically ordered to support them.

French Fleet was a Mediterranean counter to the Italians. As such, they had doo-doo for out-of-area support. For additions to the opening day festivities, I can see maybe a DesDiv, and stretching it a bit, a DesDiv and a CL, or maybe even a DesRon (but doubt it). But that's about it. Anything else is utter fantasy and completely unsuportable, by any rational metric.

Ciao. Mr Nasty John.

Mister NASTY John.

If the Frenchies are not up to the task, with no Support Shipping, is their an alternative? I like adding the French as a contingent but if it is impossible from a deep water Port thought then what else might there be?

Perhaps go with a DesDiv of 4 DDs and a few SS? What is the Port size needed to replennish Torps?