41-45GC:1.05.28 M60A3TTS (Sov) v Pelton (Axis)

[Flaviusx]

Q-ball makes an excellent point here about stacking. This is another reason why rifle divisions are preferable to corps in 42, btw. Yes, you can breakdown corps and get similar results, but it's kind of a waste of APs to do so. Nor does the reassignment issue go away with breakdowns.

The key here isn't necessarily to stop an Axis advance cold, but to absorb it, and give your reserves time and space to react to them. Putting everything up front means that any breakthrough is disastrous.

Spreading out also allows you to make ample use of the reserve stance. If you start putting a ton of units on reserve something will react, and this can spoil attacks. It makes it much harder to plan out an offensive when the attacker can't really be sure what he's fighting against. He will tend to overcompensate and put in attacks with more forces than strictly necessary, thus slowing him down -- this is eating into his MPs.

Q-ball, I slightly disagree with you about rifle divisions in terms of offensive capability. They actually have some. They can certainly attack single Axis divisions in the open. What they cannot do is punch a hole through a strong Axis defense, and that's what corps are for as you noted. A few rifle divisions with a stiffening of mobile units can counterattack just fine.

The truly useless units here are the brigades.

[Seminole]

The truly useless units here are the brigades.

I keep them for three purposes:

1 - to combine for making rifle corps
2 - maintain/buildup fortifications
3 - as a screen to create EZOC and hasty attack costs behind the main line of resistance.  Less of an impact with a rivers frozen, but better than airfields for stemming the tide.

I think M60's biggest problem is still lack of on map counters, right?  How many Corps/Div/Bde do you actually have to sponge this blow?

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

The truly useless units here are the brigades.

I keep them for three purposes:

1 - to combine for making rifle corps
2 - maintain/buildup fortifications
3 - as a screen to create EZOC and hasty attack costs behind the main line of resistance.  Less of an impact with a rivers frozen, but better than airfields for stemming the tide.

I think M60's biggest problem is still lack of on map counters, right?  How many Corps/Div/Bde do you actually have to sponge this blow?

First off, since the start of the summer campaign, and that of course doesn't include the earlier March Madness stuff which I wasn't even aware of until after the fact, I've lost an equivalent 130-140 cavalry and rifle divisions.

Total Red Army units for corps/div/bde

76 corps
35 rifle
19 tank
10 cav
2 mech

317 divisions
303 rifle
6 cav
8 mtn

79 brigades
35 tank
15 mech
15 airborne
14 other

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: randallw

If you feel desperate you may want to try running beyond his supply radius. He can't possibly drop enough fuel/supply to keep all those divisions close to full.

As bad as it is, running away with leg infantry is difficult with panzers and motorized units on your heels. Among his many talents, Pelton is adept at slashing away at the rail lines which provide a quick exit. Also, it is almost 1943 and I've given up all the ground and more than I can afford. If I continue going east much longer, I might be challenged to liberate Moscow by 1944. Probably an exaggeration, but after all this dies down, I'm sure he's got a serious fort line waiting for me to the west.

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
I think you built too many rifle corps and not enough tank corps. 30 odd rifle corps in 1942 is a hefty expense.

The expense was primarily when I used my 500 AP hoard in June to build about 20 guards rifle corps and assigned them primarily to the Volkhov Front. My motivation was to gain as much experience with them as possible and boost up their morale so that by 1944 they would be very potent. Most of the other corps came from necessity. I needed some to slow his attempt to get around Moscow, and later to force him to retreat with selected counterattacks.

I did overestimate how much damage the Volkhov Front could do, with 18 guards rifle corps. Even with good leaders, they really haven't provided the oomph I was looking for. I just converted 38th Army to 1st Guards Army and the 16th Army is close to becoming 2nd Guards Army.

On the question of more tank corps, all of my cav and tank corps are carrying tank attachments, and that may be putting a strain on my motor pool. Latest motor pool #s are 108k/(155k). If I redo my 1941 evacuation plan, it may prioritize truck factories a little more since there is no arms shortage. I lost 50 arms factories in '41 but have been hovering close to a million arms in the pool lately.

[M60A3TTS]

If anyone is interested in the subject of the Guards Rocket Launcher Division, I built my first last week along with a standard 1942 artillery division.

The GRLD has 8% of its rockets after one week.
The artillery division got 60% of its artillery, 55% of its heavy artillery and 90% of its heavy mortars during the same one week.

So if those rates continue, the GRLD would need 12 weeks to complete, and meanwhile you could get five or six artillery divisions in the same time. I'll try and remember to track how fast the GRLD takes to fill out.

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I think B-G did a few things to keep me limited, because I would really have liked to roam the way Pelton is.

Primarily, B-G had depth to his defenses. His typical structure was only a single Rifle Division up-front, and usually only 1 more in the 2nd row. The strongest units were placed, and dug-in, 3-5 hexes back of the front.

I have noticed M60 that you have alot of double and triple stacks up front. This is not a good idea (it ONLY is if you are defending a river line or something that would make it impregnible). The reason is that German Infantry with Panzer support can move almost ANY stack in clear terrain. What German Infantry has much more trouble with is moving a stack 3 hexes back of the front, after having to fight through 2 units. Once Panzers have to spend 16 MPs blowing through that 3rd hex back of the front, it doesn't leave much for exploitation.

You need to stack less and spread out more. Never have more than 1 unit right at the front. Of course this means that those single units are vulnerable to attack all the time, but the Germans won't push all of them willy-nilly, because the losses would really pile up for the Wehrmacht doing that. Unlike 1941, in 1942 a straight-up fight on a single Rifle unit will typically kill 2 Russians for every German; not a favorable ratio. That is, unless the unit routs.

That's what B-G did, and it was effective. I managed to consistently pocket some units, but never acheived a runaway, and all that fighting meant my losses in summer of 1942 haven't been light.

PS: Rifle Corps are not defensive units, and should not be built until you have the overall initative (or it's at least even). Rifle Divisions are not assault units, but are just fine for defense, as even if they lose, they can inflict losses on the attackers.

Q-Ball, you may be right, but I don't believe you've had an Axis opponent send 25 mobile divisions through a 3-5 hex gap. Whether I front stacked or went three deep, Pelton would have broken through regardless. Your point on the reserves is totally valid. I don't use reserve mode to the extent that I should. But that goes to the question of buying more divisions that can then be put on reserve and adding to defensive depth vs. buying rifle corps, and I am going to definitely reevaluate that part of my strategy.

I have to see what the final answer is to this four PanzerArmee assault strategy. It's terribly unimaginative but terribly effective, and Pelton has the experience to do it well. My reserves can't be everywhere and the tank corps absolutely has to have a matching rifle component to be successful in the attack. I've tested a number of cases where tank corps attacks with a 3-1 or 4-1 superiority in CV or more against a panzer division and the Soviet always loses. We see similar results in other games where exploiting Soviet tank corps get driven back without much difficulty unless supported by a mech corps, cav corps or the like.

It's times like this that I wonder what this game would be like if supply weren't so abstracted. If he had truck units that I could attack by air and get at his supply chain that way, this grand offensive might come to a grinding halt.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
I did overestimate how much damage the Volkhov Front could do, with 18 guards rifle corps. Even with good leaders, they really haven't provided the oomph I was looking for.

How have you been using this front? In my experience, using them against forts without lots of ArtDivs is indeed a frustrating experience.

But if they were in strategic reserve, they would certainly be able to slap around Pelton's panzers in the open. The problem is that one front does not really occupy enough space to be able to protect itself from encirclement.

[Ron]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

A further air recon shows all those unaccounted divisions in the same breakthrough area. [:(]

I don't know that there's an answer for this. Handling 25-30 mobile divisions seems downright impossible. If anyone has any suggestions, now would be a good time to raise them.

TIC - Don't sweat it. That capability for the German will be negated in the next patch so the Soviet Steamroller Story can be properly told.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Q-Ball, you may be right, but I don't believe you've had an Axis opponent send 25 mobile divisions through a 3-5 hex gap. Whether I front stacked or went three deep, Pelton would have broken through regardless. Your point on the reserves is totally valid. I don't use reserve mode to the extent that I should. But that goes to the question of buying more divisions that can then be put on reserve and adding to defensive depth vs. buying rifle corps, and I am going to definitely reevaluate that part of my strategy.

I have to see what the final answer is to this four PanzerArmee assault strategy. It's terribly unimaginative but terribly effective, and Pelton has the experience to do it well. My reserves can't be everywhere and the tank corps absolutely has to have a matching rifle component to be successful in the attack. I've tested a number of cases where tank corps attacks with a 3-1 or 4-1 superiority in CV or more against a panzer division and the Soviet always loses. We see similar results in other games where exploiting Soviet tank corps get driven back without much difficulty unless supported by a mech corps, cav corps or the like.

M60, you have a great AAR, and I want to help you defeat mr. Pelton, so maybe I can. Here is my two roubles worth:

I was the German in the game I described against B-G, where he generally contained my Panzers. And I had all but 3 Panzer units within the breakthrough area; so that's probably 25-ish. It's possible to slow it down.

The answer is defense in depth. The fact that Pelton is roaming in your rear is a direct result of your decision to build 18 Guards Rifle Corps and attach them to one front. This was a serious mistake.

You don't need to defend in depth everywhere. The fact is the Germans, while they are very mobile, cannot easily move 25 mobile divisions from one section of the Eastern Front to the other. Once he is committed to an attack, you can go ahead and thin-out any sector of the front that isn't within 20-ish hexes of those Panzers. Because it won't get attacked.

This will allow you to swamp the area where the Panzers are with something like 150-200 Rifle Divisions. Placed in depth, this defense will seriously bend, but not break. Pelton would be able to gobble-up a few divisions a turn in pockets without a problem, but that's it. And lots of counterattacks will make him stack his Panzers in the open. I bet you haven't whacked too many of his Panzer units, because he wouldn't drive them around in the open if you had.

Stop stacking up front. Defense in depth. Pull units from other sectors of the front. Feel OK with surrendering territory. Make sure you counterattack, or at least put a body on, every Panzer unit in the open. You have to feel comfortable that single Rifle units in the open will get pushed, but they will inflict losses at a rate that ultimately the Germans can't sustain.

[Flaviusx]

It's pretty much like Q-ball says, M60. You have to meet the panzer ball with your rifle swarm. And throw in your mobile units into the fray as well -- a few rifle divisions stiffened by cavalry or tank corps can easily counterattack single German divisions out in the open. But they must end their turn well behind the screen of rifle units.

This allows you to settle into a pattern of counterattacking and dispersion, with generous use of the reserve stance as the bulk of your army won't end their turn in contact with the enemy. Just enough up front to maintain contact and ZOC everything, with the rest behind them. He'll have drop units off in any breakthrough to keep those in ZOC in order to lock them down and remove their ability to react while in reserve mode.

[kevini1000]

what do you mean next patch. explain more please

ORIGINAL: Ron

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

A further air recon shows all those unaccounted divisions in the same breakthrough area. [:(]

I don't know that there's an answer for this. Handling 25-30 mobile divisions seems downright impossible. If anyone has any suggestions, now would be a good time to raise them.

TIC - Don't sweat it. That capability for the German will be negated in the next patch so the Soviet Steamroller Story can be properly told.

[wadortch]

ORIGINAL: Ron

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

A further air recon shows all those unaccounted divisions in the same breakthrough area. [:(]

I don't know that there's an answer for this. Handling 25-30 mobile divisions seems downright impossible. If anyone has any suggestions, now would be a good time to raise them.

TIC - Don't sweat it. That capability for the German will be negated in the next patch so the Soviet Steamroller Story can be properly told

Sigh.
I surely hope you are wrong about yet another patch fix to solve Soviet defensive dilemmas. [:-]

[M60A3TTS]

Yes, like all Soviet players, I have my secret login to the WiTE developers patch requests. In the next release, all of Pelton's panzers will "upgrade" to the Panzer I. [;)]

[Flaviusx]

Some people are letting their persecution complex get out of hand...

Anyways, there's nothing here that requires patching. It's just a question of learning how to build and handle the Red Army from 42 on, a process which many people are still undergoing as game experience in this period is to date somewhat limited.

[Farfarer61]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

It's just a question of learning how to build and handle the Red Army from 42 on, a process which many people are still undergoing as game experience in this period is to date somewhat limited.

Losing several Guards Tank Armies to my opponent through hubris and incompetence had a salutory effect

[randallw]

With all that German armor concentrated shouldn't there be some opportunities to attack German infantry somewhere else on the front line?

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: randallw

With all that German armor concentrated shouldn't there be some opportunities to attack German infantry somewhere else on the front line?

North of the Oka, he's dug in with mostly wooded terrain so the front is very stable, meaning any attack would require a lot of forces and casualties for not much ground.

In the far south, he is also fortified but there are some opportunities in a few spots. It's a matter of how much I can afford to commit away from the main action. At this stage, that isn't much.

Also, a lot of my rifle corps are suffering high fatigue, so they're barely able to move three friendly hexes out of an enemy ZOC, let alone move and launch deliberate attacks. I'm not sure if that is a function of supply shortages or blizzard conditions. There haven't been a large # of battles with them the last two weeks, but they move very slowly while Pelton keeps delivering fuel by air to keep a certain level of mobility for his panzer and motor infantry divisions.

[wadortch]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Some people are letting their persecution complex get out of hand...

Anyways, there's nothing here that requires patching. It's just a question of learning how to build and handle the Red Army from 42 on, a process which many people are still undergoing as game experience in this period is to date somewhat limited.

Ah, but apparently enough experience to warrant the big patch "correcting" March Madness eh Flaviusx? In any case, good to read you are not ready to lead or support another patch charge in the name of simulation purity and the Soviet Steamroller!

[wadortch]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Yes, like all Soviet players, I have my secret login to the WiTE developers patch requests. In the next release, all of Pelton's panzers will "upgrade" to the Panzer I. [;)]

Yes, with smaller fuel tanks and more attrition when they move more than 1 hex!