I guess my view is the rifle corps are a given. From 1943 onwards you will be building rifle corps every single turn of the game. So no matter what you do or strategy you decide on as the Soviets you will have a bunch of rifle corps to support your operations.
The mobility of the cav corps is whats imporant. Low end a Cav Corps never has less than 16 MP and only needs 6 MP to attack. Which means that as you find weak points the cav corps can actually build morale more quickly than infantry corps. As you can often successfully attack twice per turn with a cav corps.
Its why before the bug I had several cav corps above 70 morale for the soviets.
As to German morale- overall the bug was good for you. Most of those units I either was already attacking around or hitting with such overwhelming force they werent holding anyway. Also many of your units that were badly beat up recovered morale and I lost alot of morale......5-10 points of morale morale across 70+ corps is a massive drop in combat value for my army. Some units even losing more than 10 morale points. I should already be several more hexes west if it hadnt been for the bug and I think you know that.
Chaos(SHC) vs Pelton-T131- Game Over-Soviet victory.
Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21
RE: T98 active sector screen
Most people really don't have Cav as part of there general tragedy for Russia.
I really liked them because of them bonus for moving into enemy controlled territory. With the Russian morale issues I found them critical to mobile operations in the first winter offensive.
"War is never a technical problem only, and if in pursuing technical solutions you neglect the psychological and the political, then the best technical solutions will be worthless." - Hermann Balck
RE: T98 active sector screen
Almost to the official start of the Summer campaign season will post fresh frontline pics soon after. At 2nd week in June if I remember right so mud is almost at an end for awhile.
Pelton has started his 2 hex back tactic in the south. So basically only my Cav Corps and tank corps can reach his lines and actually attack---which is another reason its good to have alot of cavalry corps.
At Leningrad leader rolls must have been very good on his side and very bad on mine because not much happened other than losses on both sides.
Rhzev area continues to be a meat grinder as historical as I slam 2 front worths of rifle corps against lvl 3 entrenched German stacks. Losses are heavy on both sides.
To the SE of Vitebsk tho a Cavalry shock army has now smashed 4 hexes of his lvl 3 forts over the last 2 turns- forcing more German units to commit.
To the NE of Orel Soviet Rifle corps have finally gotten all three hexes across the river so progress should start to become easier going forward. This has been the scene of bloody attritional fighting for over 6 months.
South of Tula/Voronezh area German/hungarian forces are starting to give way against a very strong push to the SW by several guard armies and a shock army.
Most of Don german defense line is being given up by the pull back and further attacks driving the Germans back evenfurther. This opens up the rail line to the south for easier re-supply of my mobile Army Group in the south.
Rostov/crimea sectors are mud...so nothing much to report. My guess is he will give up Rostov by July 1943 or earlier depending on the mobile battles progress to the north of there.
Morale is slowly going back up for some of Guard Cav/TankCorps finally now that mud isnt keeping me from attacking each turn. Will still be a long road to get back to the Morale levels I had before the entire Soviet army suddenly became demoralized(bugged) at their successes over the winter lol.
I still stand by my tactic of keeping 25 Cav Corps- even in 1943 Im finding them to be very useful and strong offensive units- this turn alone I won at least 8-10 battles due to Cav Corps committment/ability to move and attack multiple times. The 16-22 MP of the Cav Corps has been absolutely critical- esp when committed as an entire Shock army with artillery support.
Guard Rifle corps are powerful but slow....Due to low Soviet officer scores in Admin I rarely have GRC with more than 12 MP- Averages usually 10-12 MP with only a couple getting the max of 14. The Slowness of the GRC is what allows Pelton's run away defense to rebuild/build up a large replacement pool for later fights.
Even with him starting his retreat in the south due to Cav corps/tank corps/ and the handful of high move GRC each turn I have been able to keep up and keep attacking successfully several times per turn.
Overall Im happy so far as Im keeping losses high for both sides and limiting his OOB growth/replacement pool growth. As he has suffered 40k+ losses each of the last two turns since the weather has been mostly clear.
I think the combat system is WAD - in that poor Soviet attacks = very high Soviet losses. Been testing this each turn just to see what I can do and what I cant do to increase the attrition strain on the Axis. Basically well prepared Soviet attacks exchange at a decent rate either better than or better 1.5:1 typically better than and closer to 1:1 or less in losses.
Poor Soviet attacks still have horrendous losses- often 6:1 or worse exchange rates.
So the system works if you want to be real life stalin and order every division to attack every week you will take horrendous losses and your army will collapse since the soviets get much fewer manpower replacements than historical. By 1943 you cannot take higher than 2:1 losses overall due to increased German replacements rates and lowered Soviet replacement rates.
Pelton has started his 2 hex back tactic in the south. So basically only my Cav Corps and tank corps can reach his lines and actually attack---which is another reason its good to have alot of cavalry corps.
At Leningrad leader rolls must have been very good on his side and very bad on mine because not much happened other than losses on both sides.
Rhzev area continues to be a meat grinder as historical as I slam 2 front worths of rifle corps against lvl 3 entrenched German stacks. Losses are heavy on both sides.
To the SE of Vitebsk tho a Cavalry shock army has now smashed 4 hexes of his lvl 3 forts over the last 2 turns- forcing more German units to commit.
To the NE of Orel Soviet Rifle corps have finally gotten all three hexes across the river so progress should start to become easier going forward. This has been the scene of bloody attritional fighting for over 6 months.
South of Tula/Voronezh area German/hungarian forces are starting to give way against a very strong push to the SW by several guard armies and a shock army.
Most of Don german defense line is being given up by the pull back and further attacks driving the Germans back evenfurther. This opens up the rail line to the south for easier re-supply of my mobile Army Group in the south.
Rostov/crimea sectors are mud...so nothing much to report. My guess is he will give up Rostov by July 1943 or earlier depending on the mobile battles progress to the north of there.
Morale is slowly going back up for some of Guard Cav/TankCorps finally now that mud isnt keeping me from attacking each turn. Will still be a long road to get back to the Morale levels I had before the entire Soviet army suddenly became demoralized(bugged) at their successes over the winter lol.
I still stand by my tactic of keeping 25 Cav Corps- even in 1943 Im finding them to be very useful and strong offensive units- this turn alone I won at least 8-10 battles due to Cav Corps committment/ability to move and attack multiple times. The 16-22 MP of the Cav Corps has been absolutely critical- esp when committed as an entire Shock army with artillery support.
Guard Rifle corps are powerful but slow....Due to low Soviet officer scores in Admin I rarely have GRC with more than 12 MP- Averages usually 10-12 MP with only a couple getting the max of 14. The Slowness of the GRC is what allows Pelton's run away defense to rebuild/build up a large replacement pool for later fights.
Even with him starting his retreat in the south due to Cav corps/tank corps/ and the handful of high move GRC each turn I have been able to keep up and keep attacking successfully several times per turn.
Overall Im happy so far as Im keeping losses high for both sides and limiting his OOB growth/replacement pool growth. As he has suffered 40k+ losses each of the last two turns since the weather has been mostly clear.
I think the combat system is WAD - in that poor Soviet attacks = very high Soviet losses. Been testing this each turn just to see what I can do and what I cant do to increase the attrition strain on the Axis. Basically well prepared Soviet attacks exchange at a decent rate either better than or better 1.5:1 typically better than and closer to 1:1 or less in losses.
Poor Soviet attacks still have horrendous losses- often 6:1 or worse exchange rates.
So the system works if you want to be real life stalin and order every division to attack every week you will take horrendous losses and your army will collapse since the soviets get much fewer manpower replacements than historical. By 1943 you cannot take higher than 2:1 losses overall due to increased German replacements rates and lowered Soviet replacement rates.
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Bozo_the_Clown
- Posts: 890
- Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:51 pm
- Location: Bozotown
RE: T98 active sector screen
Most people really don't have Cav as part of there general tragedy for Russia.
I have no idea why Pelton writes this. It's about the dumbest thing I have read in a long time. Maybe you should play the Russians once in your lifetime. [:D]
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Callistrid
- Posts: 669
- Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:27 pm
RE: T98 active sector screen
During 41 and 42, the soviet don't have enough number of cavalry divisions. Especially in 41, when they are the best reserve/tricky forces, and breakthrough unit during winter time.
Later they are less useful due Mech rating.
Later they are less useful due Mech rating.
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Bozo_the_Clown
- Posts: 890
- Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:51 pm
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RE: T98 active sector screen
During 41 and 42, the soviet don't have enough number of cavalry divisions. Especially in 41, when they are the best reserve/tricky forces, and breakthrough unit during winter time.
Later they are less useful due Mech rating.
Yes, now that is the case with the new patch. But it wasn't the case before the patch.
RE: T98 active sector screen
I still think the cav are useful even after the change, you just need to build your army in 1941/1942 to be set up for the change. In otherwords have the shock armies under one front commander so you only need 1 front commander to change to mech leadership.
You will take abit of AP pain when the change happens though to switch your infantry leaders out with mech leaders at the army HQs. I still like using the shock army HQs because it ensure consistent MP for the cav corps. Most of the time 18-22 MP unless they were in alot of combat the previous the turn.
You will take abit of AP pain when the change happens though to switch your infantry leaders out with mech leaders at the army HQs. I still like using the shock army HQs because it ensure consistent MP for the cav corps. Most of the time 18-22 MP unless they were in alot of combat the previous the turn.
RE: T98 active sector screen
German OOB has dropped -173,000 in just 11 turns. German loses over the last 11 turns is 379,000
Russian OOB has grown + 550,000 in just 11 turns. Russian loses over the last 11 turns is 804,000.
German loses over the last 11 turns is 379,000
Russian loses over the last 11 turns is 804,000.
It is spring and there has been very little fighting.
As I have stated more then once Russian OOB NEVER goes down as in never.
You been saying it would not, but your wrong again.
The data( tm.asp?m=3865677 ) is what counts not what if storys,
based on Gandalf's Magic Wand like the combat engine.
I have posted data on my thread and you have posted nothing showing your OOB going down.
Where is the data?
There is none just fairy tales
Russian OOB has grown + 550,000 in just 11 turns. Russian loses over the last 11 turns is 804,000.
German loses over the last 11 turns is 379,000
Russian loses over the last 11 turns is 804,000.
It is spring and there has been very little fighting.
As I have stated more then once Russian OOB NEVER goes down as in never.
You been saying it would not, but your wrong again.
The data( tm.asp?m=3865677 ) is what counts not what if storys,
based on Gandalf's Magic Wand like the combat engine.
I have posted data on my thread and you have posted nothing showing your OOB going down.
Where is the data?
There is none just fairy tales
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
RE: T98 active sector screen
If your going to quote me quote me correctly- you often dont for some reason.
I said once summer hit and I could attack all along the line again I predict my OOB will start dropping slightly.
However if you run away and I cant fight you, its hard for me to take losses [:)]
When you back up it lowers both sides attrition losses a chunk ive noticed. Plus then I cant attack along the line to bleed us both down. In winter 1942/1943 I was losing as many or more men that I was replacing each week, which is why my OOB didnt start growing again until FEB/MAR of 1943. However you stood and fought all along the line so was lots of opportunity for Soviet troops to give their lives for the motherland.
I said once summer hit and I could attack all along the line again I predict my OOB will start dropping slightly.
However if you run away and I cant fight you, its hard for me to take losses [:)]
When you back up it lowers both sides attrition losses a chunk ive noticed. Plus then I cant attack along the line to bleed us both down. In winter 1942/1943 I was losing as many or more men that I was replacing each week, which is why my OOB didnt start growing again until FEB/MAR of 1943. However you stood and fought all along the line so was lots of opportunity for Soviet troops to give their lives for the motherland.
RE:T106 losses
T 106 losses from my turn, the kick off of the summer campaign season is bloody with Soviet assaults all up and down the line. Bitter German resistance keeps ground gains to minimum but the Fascist pay in blood for continuing to hold the forward lines.
Finns are proving harder to bleed out that I thought even with inflicting thousands of losses on them each week over the spring/summer.
Overall Im happy with the initial assaults- leningrad is almost cut off from the rest of the German lines as I finally took the hill rail line to the SW and pushed that entire line this turn.
Very heavy fighting to the West and south of voroznevh......and even some decently heavy fighting to the north of Rostov.
All in all seems pretty historical to me, the Germans can hold but at the cost of losses...should losses be higher, yep I do think so....however the Soviet replacement rates are so low increased losses to make them historical wouldnt matter because then the design would have to include historical soviet replacements so its a wash really.
Finns are proving harder to bleed out that I thought even with inflicting thousands of losses on them each week over the spring/summer.
Overall Im happy with the initial assaults- leningrad is almost cut off from the rest of the German lines as I finally took the hill rail line to the SW and pushed that entire line this turn.
Very heavy fighting to the West and south of voroznevh......and even some decently heavy fighting to the north of Rostov.
All in all seems pretty historical to me, the Germans can hold but at the cost of losses...should losses be higher, yep I do think so....however the Soviet replacement rates are so low increased losses to make them historical wouldnt matter because then the design would have to include historical soviet replacements so its a wash really.
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Bozo_the_Clown
- Posts: 890
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- Location: Bozotown
RE: RE:T106 losses
Am I the only one who is tired about the constant whining regarding OOB. I think we all know now that the numbers don't make much sense in this game and that includes the 4.2 million German army in July 42. Please just play the game and stop bickering.
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RE: RE:T106 losses
I understand Peltons worry about his OOB----however, it is summer 1943- the German OOB should be dropping. If it isnt dropping Im not donig my job as the Soviet player.
If you look at the high point/losses in our game Pelton grabbed about historical or slightly less than historical before I stopped him with heavy and bloody counterattacks in the south.
Which means that if the game works right, short of a major mistake I should start to at least make close to historical gains against his OOB and territory wise. Which would mean the German OOB starts to drop.
The German high point of the campaign is past and it should all be downhill from here on out for the Axis. Now the key thing is does the Axis OOB drop to fast to allow them to fight/delay the Soviet advance?
So far short of a major encirclement I dont think it will. Peltons retreat tactic lowers German losses by probably 10k per week especially when anchored on defensive terrain. Which means that if I cant get a major encirlcement you are looking at an average loss of 10-20k from German OOB from combat/attrition per week if its clear everywhere and I can attack all up and down the line. At that rate of losses the German army can maintain current combat ability easily until the end of 1943, and still have a larger army than historical.
Game seems to be working correctly to me and simulating the strengths/weakness of both armies- dug-in, in good terrain German stacks are hard to push without massive concentrations of Soviet forces even in the summer of 1943.
It sucks to watch you OOB drop, and yes Pelton has play many more games than me----again tho the German OOB should drop every turn from winter 42/43 on since it reaches astronomical highs during the summer 42 campaign---provided the Soviet player has kept an intact offensive force to bleed and take the war back to the Germans.
If you look at the high point/losses in our game Pelton grabbed about historical or slightly less than historical before I stopped him with heavy and bloody counterattacks in the south.
Which means that if the game works right, short of a major mistake I should start to at least make close to historical gains against his OOB and territory wise. Which would mean the German OOB starts to drop.
The German high point of the campaign is past and it should all be downhill from here on out for the Axis. Now the key thing is does the Axis OOB drop to fast to allow them to fight/delay the Soviet advance?
So far short of a major encirclement I dont think it will. Peltons retreat tactic lowers German losses by probably 10k per week especially when anchored on defensive terrain. Which means that if I cant get a major encirlcement you are looking at an average loss of 10-20k from German OOB from combat/attrition per week if its clear everywhere and I can attack all up and down the line. At that rate of losses the German army can maintain current combat ability easily until the end of 1943, and still have a larger army than historical.
Game seems to be working correctly to me and simulating the strengths/weakness of both armies- dug-in, in good terrain German stacks are hard to push without massive concentrations of Soviet forces even in the summer of 1943.
It sucks to watch you OOB drop, and yes Pelton has play many more games than me----again tho the German OOB should drop every turn from winter 42/43 on since it reaches astronomical highs during the summer 42 campaign---provided the Soviet player has kept an intact offensive force to bleed and take the war back to the Germans.
RE: RE:T106 losses
Don't underestimate snowball effect of WITE, I played 2 games to the bitter end as german and till summer 1943, german army is so strong that you can't do anything decisive.
The first test will be winter 1943/1944 and above all summer 1944. At this time, Pzd/Mot should be weaker, german morale affected by NM and defeats and you should be able to achieve a major encirclement.
Time is on your side!
The first test will be winter 1943/1944 and above all summer 1944. At this time, Pzd/Mot should be weaker, german morale affected by NM and defeats and you should be able to achieve a major encirclement.
Time is on your side!
GHC 9-0-3
SHC 10-0-4
SHC 10-0-4
RE: RE:T106 losses
Stef- So far that is the situation I can push the Germans when I concentrate forces but across most of the line he is still very strong. However I think attrition/combat losses will start to take a toll...provided the weather ever improves- at the end of June and mud across most of the front is what I heard from him in message today, wont get to the turn till later tonight or tomorrow----begining to think like many others that the weather isnt working right if thats the case.
Despite our banter back and forth on the forums we talk quite abit via PM.
Despite our banter back and forth on the forums we talk quite abit via PM.
RE: RE:T106 losses
T 107- 1st week of July mostly mud---so a very long spring season apparently.
Only center sector was clear for actions. Have pictures of 106/107 to post as we get a couple turns past. Losses continue to be high for both sides- and T 107 Massive action to just south of Voroznevh which cleared the Germans from the Don in most of the sector and pushed them a couple hexes west. German counterattacks may ensue if Pelton wants to burn the tanks/men otherwise German lines will have to retreat and a couple divisions could be in bad spots to successfully get away.
Also began to spare some AP to re-organize/disband chunks of the Red Airforce as they are no longer proving a useful combat multiplier.
Well T108 will be boring now since the patch has messed up random weather massively and now end of June to first week or two of July is nothing but an extension of spring muds........
Cant say im enjoying the patch "improvements" much at all.
Well prepared and successful offensives for start of "summer" are drenched in mud allowing the Germans a slow retreat instead of a rout or even a small encirclement that should be the results.
Only center sector was clear for actions. Have pictures of 106/107 to post as we get a couple turns past. Losses continue to be high for both sides- and T 107 Massive action to just south of Voroznevh which cleared the Germans from the Don in most of the sector and pushed them a couple hexes west. German counterattacks may ensue if Pelton wants to burn the tanks/men otherwise German lines will have to retreat and a couple divisions could be in bad spots to successfully get away.
Also began to spare some AP to re-organize/disband chunks of the Red Airforce as they are no longer proving a useful combat multiplier.
Well T108 will be boring now since the patch has messed up random weather massively and now end of June to first week or two of July is nothing but an extension of spring muds........
Cant say im enjoying the patch "improvements" much at all.
Well prepared and successful offensives for start of "summer" are drenched in mud allowing the Germans a slow retreat instead of a rout or even a small encirclement that should be the results.
RE: RE:T106 losses
T 106- North grinding continues
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RE: RE:T106 losses
T 106 Center grinding continues.
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RE: RE:T106 losses
T 106- south and more grinding attacks lol.
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RE: RE:T107 pic
T107- mud covers most of the front but a massive Soviet assault almost nets a small pocket----T108 is mud tho and the germans get away instead of losing at least 3 divisions to a pocket.
Overall I dont understand why Pelton is holding some of the ground he is as its extremely poor defensive terrain and I would estimate costing him at least an 10k a men a week in casualties just because he is trying to hold exposed positions.
He really cant complain about his OOB dropping when he is purposely sacrificing men in exposed positions to try and buy time. His units in those positions should be and are crushed every turn by my units....thus costing him lots of extra manpower every week.
Overall I dont understand why Pelton is holding some of the ground he is as its extremely poor defensive terrain and I would estimate costing him at least an 10k a men a week in casualties just because he is trying to hold exposed positions.
He really cant complain about his OOB dropping when he is purposely sacrificing men in exposed positions to try and buy time. His units in those positions should be and are crushed every turn by my units....thus costing him lots of extra manpower every week.
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Callistrid
- Posts: 669
- Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:27 pm
RE: RE:T107 pic
Chaos, I belive you shold attack on center side, with your massive forces, and force Pelton to give up his southern positions, if he wish to keep his straight line. Long frontline don't favor the german side.