A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG

[AlbertN]

T76 - Questing for Morale / Experience in TB

Well ... I started to have a look but I stumbled at first in what may be a problem.

I can definitely see here further notions of a grander plan for a War in Europe or at least some Desert War business...

This Artillery Unit in the North Afrika TB expects to be filled with captured English guns, that are nowhere to be found in the production list I've.
And for obvious reasons I cannot get hands on - as the French / English captured equipment is what it is at the beginning of the campaign (French tanks and some Matildas).

Also from a quite -quick- glance (I've not gone too deep for now) it seems to me that the Morale and thus relative experience of the troops tend to be 'frozen' in the Theather Boxes.
The 21st Panzer is still at its exceptional 90 Morale and Experience that I believe is what it started with (East to check by opening a new campaign) whilst the 15th is at 86.

Thus ideally to issue the 7th Panzer down there would do no good til its has trained up its Morale but can be issued to the West to train up and help the ground %.

[AlbertN]

T76 - Maikop Repairs... the ... trick ...

Here we go - it made a jump that is beyond the 1%!

I had to try and tinker and workaround various options.
The 'brute force' of dumping in Maikop 5 Construction units at once has not worked.

So I removed them - then the idea came to bring supplies into it via the ... air! Oh what a novelty.
Yes it works for repairing too.

Apparently 'freight' was needed, stocked there or so.
Since no units are adjacet, some 200ish freight was dumped in Maikop by planes (a bit more but it was taken by the recon squadrons parked there). And it seems now thanks to that Freight that the repairing percentage has been ... making a good and healthy leap forward of I think 6% or so.

That in general is a good notion for repairing anything that gets strat bomber or maybe to accelerate repairs around.
Air-Injection of Freight.
The odd thing that puzzles me is that ... it is connected via the rail.
Why the workers do not get the needed Freight already? I ferry pratically VIA MAIKOP 6k+ a turn down to Tuapse, but the logistic system cannot just divert barely enough to the other rail to Maikop and the mountaineers so that these units are adequately supplied. Even if the depots are level 4.

[AlbertN]

T76 - Logistic Nightmare

Someone already told me I've far too many depots.
I am not sure if that simply 'confuses' the AI (and then to me that's an AI-Logistic management issue).

To me there are not enough tools to do the job. The problem is how to have a good and healthy system that is not a micromanagement nightmare.

Kursk - a lvl 4 Freight Depot?
Intent: The only way I can stock up some local reserve for bigger refits (ie. Panzer Division) is to do it this way.
Need: A function that is a 'Stock up only' or 'Stock up and Spread within Range of X'.
Need: A function that is 'Keep what you have' without gaining more. It can just be a depot type or a specific priority.

In truth there should not be a NEED of such a depot. The system should just understand that if 'THIS UNIT is in REFIT -and- on RAILYARD (or Adjacent)' that unit must try to receive replacements. Without having a need to adjust depot level for the next logistic phase.
Play smart, reduce micromanagement.

Kurks is also an airbase for Air Supply (Which I need to abundantly use as it is known.) thus I must make sure Kursk receives supply.

Any non 4 depot here is entirely redundant and vestuge of past. I may as well 0 them in. As you can see be it a 3 or a 2 they received no freight at all. Thus if I lower Kursk from being a 4, it won't receive Freight at all -AND- immediately give away the freight it stocked.
Suddenly becoming an useless air base for Air Supply purpopses.

That level 2 depot at Mazmyzhi - there are air units there.
The system should just be able to 'grab' the needed Freight as it passes by, no matter what's the depot priority. It's there. A rail station was built specifically FOR the airfield and serve it.
It should not quest for freight from other locations.

Rail passes by? Need Freight. Grab your minimum requirement at least.

But obviously here the freight goes Eastward to Voronhez and then has to travel back via truck westward.

So if I wanted to have freight stop by these airfields, I'd need a Priority 4 Depot in them. But then they'd all compete for Freight at the same level.

Since Kurks is a big city, has railyard and all receveid almost 2000 Freight.
Then we have the frontline depots. That averagely get 200-300 Freight only.

But then I can see at Tuapse, far in the Caucasus (That's the port with the Italians and Romanians), I can rail in 6000 Freight just because I can tag it as 'Mega Prioritized Port'.
Yet my frontline depots anywhere inland grab 300 Freight when much more is needed?
And I am sure a Berlin-Tuapse via Rostov railroad path is longer than Berlin-Voronhez.

I'm also using the FBDs as 'Mini Super Depots' here and there BUT you cannot rely on them. One of them was about where the Soviets are advancing and that specific Railyard 1 Depot gained 4000 Freight for the turn, but as now there is a threat ... the FBD has to move away, because it needs to stay put.

A tool is needed to be able to indicate 'I want lots of Freight here' inland too, not just on the coast.

Supposedly I could -reduce- the number of priority 4 depots. BUT then I've the problem with the air supply bases that have no freight at all.
And the moment I reduce them, I lose my 'stocked up' freight for refits.

The 'Move freight, then it converts to ammo/supply/fuel/replacements' concept is exceptional - but the freight distribution system needs severe rework.

Unless one accepts that it's like having a handful of Priority 4 depots all across the map and trucks covering a grand distance, and that a multi layered depot system with a capillar distribution does not work. (But I am quite confident that was how it was historically - there were plenty of army depots, corps depots, etc).

Now off to dine!

PS: Yes the Hungarian line is weak! But it seems Soviet military efforts are elsewhere so Germans shifted to the hot zone this turn.

[EwaldvonKleist]

Freight priority and the amount a depot/unit can ask for should be separate settings, and it should be possible to lock depots.

The supply system is so complicated that it calls for bugs and inexplainable behaviour. I hope it will run smoothly at some point.

[battlefield91]

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

T76 - Axis Reserves

I admit this may not be AAR relevant but I feel I want to express a thank of gratitude to the OOB designers / scholars for something.

While I may disagree on this or that notion here I noticed something ... motorized divisions that I was entirely unaware of or never heard of.
I took a break from the gaming to check online, and these 2 Motorized Divisions here I never heard of because pretty much got renamed once the 6th Army disappeared in the Stalingrad Cauldron and replaced the 3rd and 29th that ceased to exist.

I remember it was a rather drumming topic in the old WITE1, that the 29th Motorized Division was whisked away from the Ostfront no matter what, because the reconstituted one went to Italy. Non depending if the Germans suffered the debacle or not in the game.

In this case I do feel that it makes way more sense that the Germans get the 'new formations' and if they do not lose the old ones ... all the better.

I may be speaking prematurely here and in a few months I'll have some forced renamed and the like (as I cannot see the renaming and changes of designation schedule, only the coming and going) and I am to eat my word back ... but right now I am pleased to see the extra motorized divisions.

Because a rename would not make sense IF there is on map the 3rd Motorized already for instance. Supposedly the present game mechanics give the German player the choice if to merge these new Motorized units in the barebone reformed ones if that ever happens, or go through a disband and recycle all of the material.

Nonetheless - for now it's a big thumbs up!

The 3rd and 29th motorized Infantry Divisions will automatically "upgrade" to standard non-motorized Infantry Divisions later in January or February 1943. So you only have a few turns to enjoy your two additional motorized Divisions.

[Stamb]

What about making a topic in tech support AlbertN with all of logistics issues, so it might bring some attention from developers (but i believe they are checking AARs also)?

I noticed that when you are using multiple super depots then order in which depot become a super depot really matters.
As first one will get much more freight than a second one. In my GC i had Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk as super depots.
Dnepropetrovsk was getting more freight than Kharkov. I move FBD out of D town and on the next turn back to it. After this manipulation Kharkov was getting more freight.

Probably in a code it just selects first super depot and send maximum freight to it, then second and so on.

[cain012]

I myself am wondering about the efficacy of this "priority" system, as well as the issues that you have pointed out about units receiving freight from depots that are far away or less well stocked than depots nearest.

Perhaps a tiny bit more rational control of the supply flow would help matters? I for one wonder why we can't set which depot a division draws supply from. Also why, since there is a total amount of freight available in any case, we cannot say specifically how much freight we want to go where. If you wanted to make absolutely sure a certain sector got the supplies it needed you could say so, otherwise it can do its automatic distribution from the total available freight -- similar to "auto-escorts" used in the air war. I can granularly go down into the smallest air groups and assign them directly to air missions, and the game knows if they can even accomplish this mission from where they are...would something similar for the supply system help?

[AlbertN]

I've sent the turn after I ended up frustrated in some logistical studies - and I deliberated to steal more air transports by the Italian front instead.

I am very sorry to hear of the 3rd and 29th Motorized division business then ... I do understand with the 'oil business' non existant it is a measure to be taken. I hope for a War in Europe though that the Axis can shape their own formations and eventually upgrade / downgrade to motorized formations infantry ones and vice versa.

For what concerns the logistic issues, I've already opened up a thread and pretty much I got an answer that the system is complicated and convulted - I do not believe WITE2 will have a reviewed or built-from-stratch logistic system; but if there are sequels or maybe a paid expansion to it, then yes it is possible. My own gut vibe there though.

[AlbertN]

T77 - Russian Action

MSAG continues his relentless advance by hammering German forces.

The losses may seem massive for the Russians in comparison but do not be fooled. A single defeat hammers the Germans as well.
Look at the map. The 'Luftlande' stack that was worthy 347 pre-combat (So roughly 17 total double up once by the single fort), is worth 8 now.

That means that between fatigue, damaged elements and whatnot it has lost 50% of its combat efficiency if not even more.

Worse, the Soviets are branching north toward the pretty weak Hungarian sector.

I feel that for the '42, in absence of 'strategical errors' like Stalingrad flanks defended exclusively by Axis minors the Soviets are playing wisely, netting more and more victories to augment their Guard units without losing units themselves.

If the question is 'why' the Germans are fighting there, it's because behind that there is not exactly any defensive line that is better. It is all a matter of plain hexes and frozen rivers pretty much.

[AlbertN]

T77 - Tambov sector

Here - where I expected the Soviets to keep pushing - they did not this turn.

Their mighty guard corps took a step back - to either rest and rebuild CCP - and all the while I gained a screening force of weak divisions.

The question here is if to attack these divisions left here as bait - it will halve my CCPs and spend movement and gain fatigue on my own elements to inflict some losses...
Alternatively I can stay put and keep digging as now I am enabled to dig beyond the Lvl 1 fort as I got enemy hexes adjacent here and there.

On the other hand to inflict some losses to weak Soviet formations in the open ... it is also a temptation.
But wisdom suggests to stay put. Especially as a bucket of Tanks will just damage themselves by moving around if I use the Panzers to gain them experience...

And I am skeptical of the influence of experience on the combats.

[AlbertN]

T77 - Leningrad Sector

Here I feel I've an amount of divisions sitting idling and waiting for Leningrad to be attackable when it will take eons before that can happen.

The Flak shot down 25 Li2 planes this turn and I decided to try to build airbases adjacent to Leningrad proper as well to see if at -1- hex distance fighters may intercept.

I know in a previous turn they intercepted loads but I do not remember if there were special circumstances for, that got them to fly!

I also believe that MSAG is lightening up the Eastern Front. The Guard Corps disappeared, and many Infantry Corps that were there are being split in divisions. I expect a sensible weakening of the region for what concerns the Soviet forces and I am caressing the idea of relocating elsewhere the motorized and armoured divisions as their role there by now it is non that significant anymore.

[EwaldvonKleist]

For what concerns the logistic issues, I've already opened up a thread and pretty much I got an answer that the system is complicated and convulted - I do not believe WITE2 will have a reviewed or built-from-stratch logistic system; but if there are sequels or maybe a paid expansion to it, then yes it is possible. My own gut vibe there though.

I find that somewhat frustrating, it seems to me that not even the manual writers/producers have an in-detail understanding how the supply routines work.

You operate with many depots in several layers behind your frontline. Maybe setting all but those closest to the front to low priorities could help. Since the system is so complicated it may be confused by a high number of depots.

Btw. very good AAR!

[AlbertN]

T77 - Numbers in general

Both numbers gone up - though I admit as Germans I fail to supply my units due to how obscure the logistic system is, that to say it lightly.

The more I try to understand it, the more I bang my head in the wall.

Will elaborate further in another post.
Here the numbers.

The air war is litterally non existant.

I do Air Supply, and pretty much that's it. And some air recon.

My opponent keeps his patrolling in the Caspian Sea routinely and does some air recon. And air supply on Leningrad.

It appears both of us consider the operational losses and the flak way too efficient for the produced result, and mostly the amount of supplies the bombers eat.

[AlbertN]

T77 - Logistics Exploration

This is the result of the weekly blood test of the Axis player!

In general all results are wrong once they've gone past the few first turns! The second number being out of the parameter dictated by the first.

Here though one can just see the final outcome, the tip of the iceberg.

Also to be considered all the Freight in replacement is Freight that does not get into Supplies.

For instance the 18th Army that is designated to siege Leningrad was announced to be set in Refit status and gained lots of replacements; but due to their positioning - the best in the logistic line, they also are not that far away from the needed freight or at least they got way more.

Somehow the 1st Panzer Army, down in the Caucasus is getting ... 1/10 of their need but a huge chunk of replacements.
This may be my own muck up to keep units in Refit status down there (I know I always keep the SS units in Refit though at least).

With utmost chances what I can do and ought to have control over, is to lower the 'Refit' needs of the 1st Panzer Army.

That is roughly the 'use' of this first bit - to keep a glance on it each turn is a good habit, without the need to go too deeply into it. That as suggestion for any player, new or old. (Well old ones know better than I so...)

[AlbertN]

T77 - Logistics Exploration II

That's the next relevant bit past the recap of the 'blood exam' part.

The first portion is the 'heart check'. Our NSS, the pulsing muscle that spreads our Freight - depending on the might of the Railyards above level 1...

In the mixed screenshot I've put Berlin there. There are Luftwaffe assets right there that I assume should not weight much on the freight if kept there (I've learnt as the Soviets migrate to the Caucasus airplanes it may not be wise to send the LW to the Reserves too in turn? Not sure). And a freshly arrived division as reinforcement.

They all draw freight from Berlin via horse or truck. For what may interest, that division got its freight, had a penalty of 16 due to the distance from its parent HQ, but still failed 0 admin checks in accord to its supply data.
There are things I do not understand entirely there already - a unit receives supplies, which are defined in % of ... what? But mostly are these 'tons'? Because the consumpion of supply is defined in tons instead and not a %.
The two weights and standards used rarely work well - or at least certainly they do not with the 'day routines' of air phase and non day routies of air operations.

Already to understand the division is a headache. BUT beware, beware - the map show is even more treacherous.
You see it linked to Berlin, the Division. It has a clear red line. BUT the deeper detail of the unit says it took its freight from the Western Europe Depot...

That suggests that the Supply phase is before the Transfer phase. For all that may be important, I think it is just a curiosity. (And probably easily understandable if one bothers to read through all the 'phases' of the Logistic calculations when you pass the turn).

Now returning to the main core of the business. Number crunching.

The combined sum of Freight 'used' by the 4 NSS is 145.000 roughly.
Do we know which are the meanings of the 'columns' there.
Why a NSS receives Freight? I assume that is a rotation of personnel or the like from closeby airbases. But I do only have LW assets around Frankfurt and Berlin... Anyhow the amount seems non very significant.

Used? That sounds like the wrong term. It factually means Freight that was sent out from the NSS or in general the Depot elsewhere.

To Units ... Freight delivered to units? At this stage I've to understand what is being supplied by Vienna.
Vienna, as probably other German cities, are loaded with Flak stuff. I can only assume then that is where the supplies have gone as there is nothing else around Vienna. The Slovak HQ has its own depot in Bratislava that serves them directly.
I'd be wrapping this up right now if I was not to sight a ... 186 truck use from Vienna? That's the allocation an Infantry Division tend to have... which means to me, there should be else that is supplied, that is not in the hex of Vienna... (Doing more posts need more images...)

[AlbertN]

T77 - Logistic Exploration III

Here's the 'Truck Use'.

Just application of deductions, realized Vienna has an amount of Flak in there, factually we have another huge chunk of Flak systems spread all around Germany.

And in fact it comes into play the fact that the Flak in there uses trucks, and destroys trucks too! Now this is Winter, but Germany has excellent roads. Each of these AA units has destroyed 3-4 trucks this turn alone.
If I multiply this number (let's say 3 considering in fair weather it could be less) per 75 (roughly the turns of the game) I get 225 trucks per AA location that is not in a NSS.

Solution? Put a depot anywhere there is AA.
BUT that may come with a not too pleasant tradeoff.

-- In the screen also the Supply situation of the division that arrived as reinforcement.

[AlbertN]

Logistics IV

Hungarian units are well visible, and not as subtle as AA-SU that Goering commandeer around in Cities!

On the other hand there should be awareness each of these Depot will lure some freight and I do not know in which measure and from where. The 'push and shove' amount I've yet to understand as it seems excess of math beyond the basic operations of adding and subtracting and I really do not want to get in there for a game.

In the image below you can see Hungary with 2 different filters.

Many depots that are now at 0 priority had units there that were locked and now are released and got into Russia.
The idea was to minimize truck loss over time. Because we just saw each turn a depot spreads around Freight, trucks can be lost.

On the other hand, remember it is highly inefficient to rely on horse pulled freight (half efficiency in fact).

Ideally you'd want a depot in each hex that contains one unit for min/max at the cost of Admin Points.

BUT then each depot that is kept at 1 keeps pulling Freight on a regular basis.
The player has absolutely no tool to tell a depot to 'just take what you need for your units there'.

Pecs is a prime example of a depot that overpulls well beyond its need. It is gradually storing up Freight there, and what it is sent forward to the front has a very odd pathing, a form of triangulation... (Pecs is the 1 priority depot that is southmost).

So the risk is potentially the same, in Germany, to have depots that will demand well more Freight than what the local AA regiment or battallion truly need for its sky-security activities.

Going back to the numbers of the Logistic Log next - so you'll have to hook back the previous image of the logistic log.

[Stamb]

In my GC vs AI i was using depot #1 to the west of Berlin to give supply to a flak, otherwise it is pretty hard or even impossible to refit them.
And when depots will get to a full capacity there - they will not drain any freight any more, i guess...

[AlbertN]

Logistics V

Now we've a list related to the 'Export Ports'.
They're the ones receiving Freight first.

I'll start with the first line. Stettin.
Stettin has Priorit 2 as Export Port. Thus if that is the final outcome - it has no precise start of listing I suspect as I've both Priorit 1 and Priority 4 depots.
It certainly won't help me understand proper.

The log tells me Stettin has 33k amount of Freight BEFORE to receive anything.
Stettin gains 9k Freight (from Berlin).
Stettin 'uses' (Ships out) 9k Freight (followed the white line, it goes to Orianenbaum, Import Port Priority 4).
Stettin delivers to units 31 Freight. - There is an AA regiment there that received precisely 31 Freight. Excellent.
Stettin depot uses 0 Trucks total.

That seems clear to me. Now I ought to repeat the ordeal all around.

Since Stamb posted a comment, I'll add an image to reply to him! A few depots that are full, or almost.

[AlbertN]

Logistics - Kind of surrendering (for now at least).

I tried to follow up the various passages the game performs following the log, but gradually the 'interest' component got smoked by 'frustration' and other bad vibes.

With Freight that plays ping pong around the map in ways that are non logical and beyond control.

I am also clueless of how to refill the trucks of the units, to leave them in Refit mode into Freight-plenty depots do not work. It refills the troops but I am clueless of where new trucks in general go.

That ruling out the option of 'Bring unit back to the Axis Reserve / West Front' to refit it with trucks.

Anyhow there is only so much my time allows to invest in turns and in general I prefer to churn a day a turn, and keep WITE2 as a game experience and not a labor experience.

I'll tinker some with depot priorities to see if there are improvements but I had enough number churning and white-lines following for the day!

But as good notion I found 2 fighter squadrons parked somewhere as I followed the white lines.
That is the nasty fruit of another poor design and that is of the AoG that come and go.

Whisked away their original AOG, the Air Units splashed into the the 'larger formation' and thus pratically eluding the radar, at least in the way I do operate.
That is another thing that truly should be reworked. It's cool to have JG-X or KG-Y seen on the map, but then anyhow they may not even match the content of the box (as I can put I JG.A, Stab.JG.B and, and III JG.C into the AOG JG-X). A player should just be able to create AOGs as necessary and rename them (for their own mental order) as quality of life improvement.

If I've AoG Leningrad or AoG Caucasus I will know what they're way better than to try to remember other things.
At game - effect level it changes nothing.
From my perspective it will only look better if my supposed JG51 AoG is ... well it has many things that are not the real JG51.

Mostly, as they won't follow the come and go of historical nature - there won't be the risk to forget to null a transfer of the AoG (as per the label not the air unit / group itself) and suddenly have air units not assigned anymore to this or that air directive ...

Anyhow here little harm done because frankly the use of airforce is non existant.