A discussion about our Community and Moderation.

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition

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warspite1
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RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation.

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Well I read the definitions and the only ones I liked and understood were the gas lamp ones, the others were too complicated for us DATs.
warspite1

This is what one website said:

In the vernacular, the phrase “to gaslight” refers to the act of undermining another person’s reality by denying facts, the environment around them, or their feelings. Targets of gaslighting are manipulated into turning against their cognition, their emotions, and who they fundamentally are as people.

Sadly, I don't know what a DAT is either, but maybe I am one because I can't relate the above to me asking a question of another forum member.

Do you need to have your offensive language to truegrit quoted back to you?
warspite1

No, but thank-you. My post and question can be found in post 175
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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Ian R
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RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation.

Post by Ian R »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Ian R

So was I, which is why I suggested I'd deal with warspite and sort out his pompous ad hominen posts by myself.

But that does not seem to be the preferred way forward here.
warspite1

Ian R, I am not sure what you mean by preferred way. If you believe I have broken forum rules then please report me. I don't believe I have, but then, I am not a moderator.

I don't run around reporting people. I fight my own battles.

That's probably a reason, after 21 years, I don't feel I fit in here anymore. The corporate policy has gone full nanny-state, with ... [I'm leaving it to Erik to post my analysis of the Alfred banning... he has my permission to publish my PM].

Oh well, it's their website. They get to run it as they see fit.
"I am Alfred"
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warspite1
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RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation.

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Zovs

DAT

In the Army the crunchies (infantrymen) and mechs (mechanics) used to lovingly (or at least we thought) called us Dumb Assed Tankers or DAT for short.
warspite1

Ah [:)]

Dumb Assed Tankers. I freely admit to the first two words as a description of me, but I was never a tanker [:)]
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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Yaab
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RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation.

Post by Yaab »

Damn, this thread made me nostalgic.

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actrade
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RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation.

Post by actrade »

After looking through the myriad of threads regarding moderation and Alfred, it comes down to this:

1. There is a vocal minority here who deem themselves the "guardians of knowledge" on the inner workings of WiTP:AE, admittedly a very complex and deep game. They feel they have the right to tell players, many of them new, that they don't know anything, read the manual closer and in some instances, have resulted to unprovoked insults when they just as easily could simply have chosen not to respond to these posts at all. Psychologists call this term a "Spring boarder," which means someone who pushes down on a spring board to elevate themselves, the person/persons put someone down in order to create themselves in the image of 'other' or 'better' than their victim.

2. Then there is the silent majority, who simply want to play the game, engage in discussions on how to play better, understand the game better, doing what human beings do by asking questions that you find on most other forums. They haven't memorized the manual yet and don't have 10+ years of experience with the game. Go take a look at the WiTE2 forums, which is also a quite complex game IMHO, but is much more scalable in terms of AI assistance and less micro managing. I was quite shocked at the difference between the two boards after picking up WiTP:AE for $16 over the holidays and coming over to these forums.

3. Finally, you have a company who realizes things have gotten out of control and have decided to more rigorously enforce a long-existing set of standards of decorum (along with new standards) and is being vilified for doing so. The vocal minority "gatekeepers" are now threatening to leave and in some cases, highlighting their own self-importance and loss for the community if they make good on their threats. All of this smacks of classic narcissism.
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RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation.

Post by Ian R »

ORIGINAL: actrade

After looking through the myriad of threads regarding moderation and Alfred, it comes down to this:

1. There is a vocal minority here who deem themselves the "guardians of knowledge" on the inner workings of WiTP:AE, admittedly a very complex and deep game. They feel they have the right to tell players, many of them new, that they don't know anything, read the manual closer and in some instances, have resulted to unprovoked insults when they just as easily could simply have chosen not to respond to these posts at all. Psychologists call this term a "Spring boarder," which means someone who pushes down on a spring board to elevate themselves, the person/persons put someone down in order to create themselves in the image of 'other' or 'better' than their victim.

2. Then there is the silent majority, who simply want to play the game, engage in discussions on how to play better, understand the game better, doing what human beings do by asking questions that you find on most other forums. They haven't memorized the manual yet and don't have 10+ years of experience with the game. Go take a look at the WiTE2 forums, which is also a quite complex game IMHO, but is much more scalable in terms of AI assistance and less micro managing. I was quite shocked at the difference between the two boards after picking up WiTP:AE for $16 over the holidays and coming over to these forums.

3. Finally, you have a company who realizes things have gotten out of control and have decided to more rigorously enforce a long-existing set of standards of decorum (along with new standards) and is being vilified for doing so. The vocal minority "gatekeepers" are now threatening to leave and in some cases, highlighting their own self-importance and loss for the community if they make good on their threats. All of this smacks of classic narcissism.


Do you want to accuse any one in particular of alleged "narcissism", or just leave it as a general smear?

Let me put that another way - you have just made a generalised smear attack on a "undefined" group of posters, accusing them of suffering a mental disease which is identified on the DSM IV. So, are you feeling good about yourself right now, eh? Nice and smug about calling people mentally ill?

Did it occur to you that there are, statistically speaking, very likely many members of this forum who have over the years, sought mental health therapy, for issues ranging from classic depression,, to military service induced PTSD.

You just smeared every single of the one with your genarilased attack.

Have you no shame?


"I am Alfred"
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Edmon
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RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation.

Post by Edmon »

Right, the free pass is officially over, frankly because this thread is getting out of control.

Any personal attacks past this point or anywhere else on this forum, for that matter, are going to be actioned.

Everyone has had plenty of time to say their bit and/or work out the issues of the past.

If the subject of a post is someone else, I would ask you to think very carefully as to it's appropriateness for a forum about video games.


Regards,
Edmon.
Slitherine Games - Community Manager - Italian Office

Any questions, concerns or comments about our Community Forums or Games? You are always welcome to drop me a PM.
Ian R
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RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation.

Post by Ian R »

Good Night Edmon.
"I am Alfred"
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RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation.

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: actrade

1. There is a vocal minority here who deem themselves the "guardians of knowledge" on the inner workings of WiTP:AE, admittedly a very complex and deep game.

Curious choice of words. An alternative term would be "an expert".
They feel they have the right to tell players, many of them new, that they don't know anything, read the manual closer and in some instances, have resulted to unprovoked insults when they just as easily could simply have chosen not to respond to these posts at all.

Making low effort or downright lazy posts and expecting others on the forum to "do your homework for you" is grounds for pushback from the community in my opinion.

Being told to read the manual is a legitimate response when the information being sought is in the manual.
Psychologists call this term a "Spring boarder," which means someone who pushes down on a spring board to elevate themselves, the person/persons put someone down in order to create themselves in the image of 'other' or 'better' than their victim.

Completely unfamiliar with this phrase, and from a quick search of academic literature "Spring board(er)" in the psychological context only seems to appear in contexts not really germane to the present discussion.
Then there is the silent majority, who simply want to play the game, engage in discussions on how to play better, understand the game better, doing what human beings do by asking questions that you find on most other forums. They haven't memorized the manual yet and don't have 10+ years of experience with the game. Go take a look at the WiTE2 forums, which is also a quite complex game IMHO, but is much more scalable in terms of AI assistance and less micro managing. I was quite shocked at the difference between the two boards after picking up WiTP:AE for $16 over the holidays and coming over to these forums.

Worth recognising they're significantly different games, with notable differences in approach and nearly a decade apart in terms of release. I'd also point out that the WITE titles have had a Steam release, which would suggest a much wider player base.

Based on any number of factors I'd be careful before drawing comparisons between the two.
3. Finally, you have a company who realizes things have gotten out of control and have decided to more rigorously enforce a long-existing set of standards of decorum (along with new standards) and is being vilified for doing so. The vocal minority "gatekeepers" are now threatening to leave and in some cases, highlighting their own self-importance and loss for the community if they make good on their threats. All of this smacks of classic narcissism.

See, you were close there.

Fell down the old trap of defaulting to personality characteristics.

It's going to be a fundamentally flawed approach if you're considering what is essentially intragroup conflict (and the wider group dynamics) with the lens of individual personality factors.
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Erik Rutins
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RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation.

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Hi all,

I've been a member here for 19.5 years ... and a MOD on the WITP and then AE forums for 6-7 years (roughly Feb 2006 - Aug 2012) ... my interest has been pretty focused on WITP and AE :D ... outside of that, I've been a historical wargamer for zillions of years. Board games, computer games, miniatures and even role-playing.

When David made me a MOD in 2006, he didn't ask me or even tell me, I woke up one morning and I was a MOD ... and I tried hard to wiggle out of it, but David never relented. He was a good MOD trainer.

If I had an issue, I would PM the person and discuss the matter. I think 9 times out of 10 or 19 or of 20, that solved the issue. MODs didn't have banning powers back in those days ... but in the 6.5 years I was a mod, if I had an serious issue, I would escalate to David and he would make the call. I think 3 people got perm bans and maybe 6 got 1 week bans. So we were pretty "gentle" in those days.

David did tell me his standards for the forum were "Your grandmother should be able to come here and be comfortable". I don't think we always enforced that, but that was the vision.

Of course, I was dedicated to the WITP and AE forums only, so that meant I could get really close to the people in those forums ... I lived there along with them. And that probably helped a lot. Well, I had already been a member of the WITP for 4 years before becoming the MOD.

As Erik said, no one is perfect.

As to females on here. I knew (in the internet sense) RhondaBrn ... and she and I got a little personal for a while (not meaning "romantic personal") but she had an off grid power system and I was building one, so she gave me the benefits of her wisdom regarding design and issues based on her experience. So, I think a female can be successful here, though in general wargaming has been a male activity over most of my history in the hobby. When I go to wargame conventions, there are females there, though in much smaller numbers, unless there is a significant role-playing presents at the con.

Erik's been around a long time here and I trust him to make things right and help us transition to the level of "decency" that David really envisioned for this place from the start. It isn't a new idea.

Thank you Joe, I think this is a good note on which to close this thread. I think in some regards, understanding has improved as a result of this discussion.

A few key points to everyone:

1. As I've explained in the first post and elsewhere, we are actively monitoring and will be enforcing the forum rules. The "waiver" for discussions in this thread is over.

2. Enforcement will be fair and neutral, there are no favorites here.

3. You will get a warning referencing the issue before a ban if you cross the line. Thread locking will be used if needed, but we prefer that you police yourselves in terms of acknowledging the rules and removing any content that is over the line.

I appreciate the input in this thread. I hope everyone understands at this point what kind of place we would like this forum to be and I hope you all feel comfortable continuing to post here on those terms. As I said earlier, I think 99% of previous posts in this forum are well within those bounds. Keep it civil, no personal attacks, keep it family-friendly. As Joe quoted above from Dave's original wishes for the forum, we would like this to be a place your grandmother, your wife, your daughter, or any of your kids or grandkids would be comfortable browsing - and if they did, they would learn a lot about wargaming, history and the collegial sharing of information by gamers interested in those subjects.

If you have any concerns that require moderation, please PM me and/or Edmon, or e-mail me at erikr@matrixgames.com.

Regards,

- Erik



Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC


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