AI for MWiF - Germany

[composer99]

I feel a little vindicated right now in my thoughts on German strategic air warfare - or at least the threat of it. In my current RL game (I am playing the USA) my German opponent has had a single LND3 sitting around in France threatening to strategically bomb English factories now that he has moved most of his bombers to the East for Barb.

My CW ally has five to six(!) fighters sitting around, including in remote parts of the UK and North Ireland, to cover all his factories. That's a 4:1 ratio of build points (and a 5:1 ratio of units) committed to the otherwise nonexistent air war over England, in Germany's favour.

Steve (the German) has been talking about rebasing that remaining LND3 east to fight in USSR. I'm not so sure he should bother. Between them the Germans & Italians have plenty of bombers to fight in the USSR, and that one sitting around idle in France is tying up a lot of good fighters that could be doing something else (like being phased into reserves to free up pilots for CW bombers!).

However, turnabout is fair play: the threat of CW strategic bombing and port strikes has left the Axis carelessly short of fighters against the USSR. My Soviet ally assures me (I had better check for myself on Friday when we play next) that as of the start of May/June 1941 the Axis have one (Italian) fighter on the border vs. the USSR. All the rest are covering German factories and Axis ports.

I assume that the Germans will do something about their fighter shortage (not least by ground striking the USSR during the surprise impulse when it doesn't matter about the USSR fighters), though.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: composer99

I feel a little vindicated right now in my thoughts on German strategic air warfare - or at least the threat of it. In my current RL game (I am playing the USA) my German opponent has had a single LND3 sitting around in France threatening to strategically bomb English factories now that he has moved most of his bombers to the East for Barb.

My CW ally has five to six(!) fighters sitting around, including in remote parts of the UK and North Ireland, to cover all his factories. That's a 4:1 ratio of build points (and a 5:1 ratio of units) committed to the otherwise nonexistent air war over England, in Germany's favour.

Steve (the German) has been talking about rebasing that remaining LND3 east to fight in USSR. I'm not so sure he should bother. Between them the Germans & Italians have plenty of bombers to fight in the USSR, and that one sitting around idle in France is tying up a lot of good fighters that could be doing something else (like being phased into reserves to free up pilots for CW bombers!).

However, turnabout is fair play: the threat of CW strategic bombing and port strikes has left the Axis carelessly short of fighters against the USSR. My Soviet ally assures me (I had better check for myself on Friday when we play next) that as of the start of May/June 1941 the Axis have one (Italian) fighter on the border vs. the USSR. All the rest are covering German factories and Axis ports.

I assume that the Germans will do something about their fighter shortage (not least by ground striking the USSR during the surprise impulse when it doesn't matter about the USSR fighters), though.

Is AA that ineffective?

[composer99]

German or Soviet AA?
 
The Germans don't have any AA units defending their cities right now, so yes, it's pretty ineffective. [;)]
 
As for the USSR, I suppose their AA guns are okay, but they are halved during surprise impulses while the bombers get extra dice, so they are not very effective when surprised.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: composer99

German or Soviet AA?

The Germans don't have any AA units defending their cities right now, so yes, it's pretty ineffective. [;)]

As for the USSR, I suppose their AA guns are okay, but they are halved during surprise impulses while the bombers get extra dice, so they are not very effective when surprised.

My question was whether building fighters was the only way to defend against strategic bombing. I would think that a few AA units might serve the purpose too.

[Taxman66]

I don't know about factories in flames, but the standard AA is not all that effective, usually they'll supress a point or two.  Additionally, there not that many AA units, and only some of them are 'heavy', they're expensive and can only cover a range of 1 hex

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

I don't know about factories in flames, but the standard AA is not all that effective, usually they'll supress a point or two.  Additionally, there not that many AA units, and only some of them are 'heavy', they're expensive and can only cover a range of 1 hex

So fighters are the only real defense then?

[brian brian]

one LND3? 6 CW fighters? I hope the AI doesn't play like that CW player.

But I do like the German bombing of the CW idea. The Condors are fun little pieces. Some day I'm going to try a Battle of Britain, W. Allied style with air impulses and HQ re-orgs, until London is flattened. Or, well, at least dented.

[Norman42]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

So fighters are the only real defense then?

Pretty much.

AA units are a very cost-ineffective defence against STR bombing. There are also too few counters to cover the vast number of factories. Its just too easy for the enemy to avoid that one factory and fly to another nearby one with no AA.

I think the only place that regularly sees AA factory defence is Lille in France, just due to the fact that Germany has to commit so many fighters in this area to fend off the fighters based in southern England that can intercept. One AA unit in Lille at least gives some minor defence, saving Germany one or more fighters for coverage elsewhere.

Added to that, the fact that the better AA units are also quite nice to have in the front lines of combat(great anti-tank factors) makes 'wasting' them in factory air defence quite rare.

Hopefully, Factories in Flames changes this, but from what I've seen the AA unit counters are still too few to be effective. Perhaps they have an area of effect in FiF that would make them much more viable(ie 5 hex range to represent spreading out of AA assets?) I do not know.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Norman42
Hopefully, Factories in Flames changes this, but from what I've seen the AA unit counters are still too few to be effective. Perhaps they have an area of effect in FiF that would make them much more viable(ie 5 hex range to represent spreading out of AA assets?) I do not know.

No, same range.
But IMO, they won't be more efficient than the current AA units, nothing is as efficient as intercepting fighters, and they wil end up behind the front lines defending against Ground Strikes.

[Mitchellvitch]

One place German AA can be effective is in the midst of the Ruhr valley - one 88 can, as I recall, cover the three main factory hexes, and makes a nice supplement to, although not replacement for, fighter cover.

[Jagdtiger14]

For Germany the only AA's worth using against strat bombing is the 105 that comes in 1941, and the 127.5 that comes in 1943. Question is, do you really want to spend the BP's to buy those for this purpose? As others have written, FTR's are the best defense, but also probably better off near the front lines somewhere. Best is to use some of the old out-classed FTR's in your reserve pool. Maybe strat bombing needs to be more damaging to force this issue? I do like the new way to build units in FiF.

[composer99]

In the CW & USA AIO threads there was some discussion about the extent to which the Allies should attempt to strategically bomb Germany.
 
The old fighters in Germany's reserves are great for defending the inner core against Allied strategic bombing... until the Allies have bombers that are as good or better at a2a combat. But until they get shot down there's no sense in deploying anything new while they are still kicking around. Denying the Allies that +1 on the die roll is huge, especially for their lightweight raids.
 
Seeing as it costs 2 bp to build the pilots to fill them out, and chances are the pilots can later be used in newer aircraft, the old reserve fighters should do the trick nicely.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

For Germany the only AA's worth using against strat bombing is the 105 that comes in 1941, and the 127.5 that comes in 1943. Question is, do you really want to spend the BP's to buy those for this purpose? As others have written, FTR's are the best defense, but also probably better off near the front lines somewhere. Best is to use some of the old out-classed FTR's in your reserve pool. Maybe strat bombing needs to be more damaging to force this issue? I do like the new way to build units in FiF.

The thing about AA is that it doesn't get shot down. It's going to be there turn after turn, and I don't care how many fighter escorts the strategic bombers bring along. Shooting down one strategic bomber would seem to pay for the AA. If it reduces the production point loses (especially in the later years when the production multiple is high), that would also seem to justify the cost to build it.

I have this niggling suspicion that what I have been reading here about wanting to place the AA units in the front lines against armor is because it is a more interesting way to play Germany than just having the AA units sit like rocks next to the German factories. But if you place them in the frontlines, then they run the risk of being destroyed - which is lost build points.

The comment about old outclassed fighters, reinforces this theory of mine. It is as if defending against strategic bombing is (UGH) defense! Use the old stuff that has no other purpose for existing. If a unit can be used offensively, why then rush it into the front line ASAP.

As another point of view, how about building all 3 heavy AA units for the Germans and placing them due east of Dusseldorf? Put one good fighter nearby to help cover the adjacent factories and synthetic oil. If the Allies send a single bomber, I'll fly the fighter and probably keep the AA in reserve. If the Allies send multiple planes, then I'll let the AA earn its keep: 3+4+5 * 4 = 48 points of heavy AA. That is a serious threat against 2 or more strategic bombers.

The cost to build all 3 is 13 BPs, which is high. But they will protect 5 factories, a synth oil plant and any saved Oil/BPs placed in Hannover. Most importantly, they will never get damaged, unless the Allies want to carpet bomb a forest hex in the teeth of that AA. When things get desperate, they can become frontline troops, but I would delay that as long as possible.

Putting up weak fighters, which then get shot down and have to be rebuilt, seems penny wise and pound foolish (to quote ole Ben Franklin).

[Norman42]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


The thing about AA is that it doesn't get shot down. It's going to be there turn after turn, and I don't care how many fighter escorts the strategic bombers bring along. Shooting down one strategic bomber would seem to pay for the AA. If it reduces the production point loses (especially in the later years when the production multiple is high), that would also seem to justify the cost to build it.

I would agree, except for the fact that there are too many other factories with no AA cover to justify that much spent protecting a couple locations. The 13 BPS of AA are guarding a (admittedly juicy) target; the Allied bombers will just fly to a different factory. While this may be useful to some degree in focussing the enemy away from your most valued target, its not worth the expediture in my opinion.

There is no shortage of targets in range of Bomber Command.

So just avoid the stacked AA area. The "Hit 'em where they ain't" military axiom seems sensible here.

True those AA units might be lost on the eastern front like you say, but there they are at least in action and being used against the enemy actively. In Dusseldorf, odds are they will sit there and never fire a single shot as they watch the bombers fly on by to less toothy targets.

[Jagdtiger14]

What Norman42 says is correct. Also, there is a bonus to certain AA units on defense...I dont have the chart in front of me now, but I think its against enemy arm/mech? The red circle AA is doubled when attacking. Its very hard to shoot down enemy aircraft with AA unless the AA is very concentrated which normally happens only in sea battles.

Using old FTR's in defending factories is not bad vs un-escorted bombers...maybe a player would be tempted to fly a bomber en-escorted if the air to air factors are equal or greater to the old FTR? If you shoot down the bomber and maybe also kill the pilot...thats huge! If the old FTR dies, you might still get the pilot back to be used elswhere.

Those non-mobile AA's might be good to cover the oil...

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Norman42

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


The thing about AA is that it doesn't get shot down. It's going to be there turn after turn, and I don't care how many fighter escorts the strategic bombers bring along. Shooting down one strategic bomber would seem to pay for the AA. If it reduces the production point loses (especially in the later years when the production multiple is high), that would also seem to justify the cost to build it.

I would agree, except for the fact that there are too many other factories with no AA cover to justify that much spent protecting a couple locations. The 13 BPS of AA are guarding a (admittedly juicy) target; the Allied bombers will just fly to a different factory. While this may be useful to some degree in focussing the enemy away from your most valued target, its not worth the expediture in my opinion.

There is no shortage of targets in range of Bomber Command.

So just avoid the stacked AA area. The "Hit 'em where they ain't" military axiom seems sensible here.

True those AA units might be lost on the eastern front like you say, but there they are at least in action and being used against the enemy actively. In Dusseldorf, odds are they will sit there and never fire a single shot as they watch the bombers fly on by to less toothy targets.

So, the AA guns are an effective deterrent against strategic bombing. There just aren't enough of them to cover all the potential targets.

I have trouble accepting that there are always other targets, since using the AA to cover 4 hexes means there are fewer targets for the fighters to cover. Removing some hexes from the responsibility of the fighters is a good thing. Though I am not so sure it is worth 13 BPs.

My basic reason for this discussion is that I do not like the idea of having the AIO never build the AA for use against strategic bombing.

[Norman42]

 
Well, we are just looking at it from the German point of view, and really there are just too many good targets within Allied bomber range for AA guns to be a strong deterrent.  That being said, they are *some* use, especially if the WAllies are really hammering home the STR campaign.  Any defence is better then no defence;  if your fighters are wiped out the AA can keep key oil/factories with some defence.
 
However, Germany isn't the only target of STR, and I think other countries can make better use of AA. 
 
- England can make good use of AAs covering south UK factories, since the German doesnt have the luxury of many long range bombers (or fighters to cover them) to reach the far northern England factories, so fewer target choices.  A single AA gun in Manchester can cover 50% of all of Englands factories.  Not bad at all.  Also, London is a solid place for an AA gun or two, since 1) its a juicy target in range of massed German airpower, and 2) the UK doesn't have alot for their AA guns to do other then protect London and Malta/Gibraltar defence duties.
 
- China...An AA gun on Chunking is a good idea, since its a very good bomb target, and China's airforce is woefully weak to defend against Japanese opportunity bombing.
 
- Japan can cover (in WiFFE) quite a few factories with AA guns in Nagoya and/or Osaka, and again when their airforce is over-matched, out of oil, or decimated, AA guns are all you have left.  Of course the new map scale on the pacific changes the coverage Japan can do with few guns, but still it is some use when faced with overwhelming airpower.
 
- USSR - Leningrad and Moskow are both common STR targets and AA guns on these is fairly common, pulling triple duty defending the baltic fleets as well as stiffening the ground defences.
 
So there are times when AAs used for STR defence is a viable (but still secondary to fighter cover) option for the AI.  Germany unfortunately comes up short on this option.  Just too many eggs in their basket.
 
 

[Norman42]

Something I guess I should put out there as well is a house rule my group has played with for quite some time, making AA guns a viable STR deterrent.
 
-A strategic bombing mission that is shot at by heavy anti-aircraft units counts as an intercepted mission for die roll modifier purposes.
 
We've played with that house rule since 5th edition and never were disappointed in its effects.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Norman42

 
Well, we are just looking at it from the German point of view, and really there are just too many good targets within Allied bomber range for AA guns to be a strong deterrent.  That being said, they are *some* use, especially if the WAllies are really hammering home the STR campaign.  Any defence is better then no defence;  if your fighters are wiped out the AA can keep key oil/factories with some defence.

However, Germany isn't the only target of STR, and I think other countries can make better use of AA. 

- England can make good use of AAs covering south UK factories, since the German doesnt have the luxury of many long range bombers (or fighters to cover them) to reach the far northern England factories, so fewer target choices.  A single AA gun in Manchester can cover 50% of all of Englands factories.  Not bad at all.  Also, London is a solid place for an AA gun or two, since 1) its a juicy target in range of massed German airpower, and 2) the UK doesn't have alot for their AA guns to do other then protect London and Malta/Gibraltar defence duties.

- China...An AA gun on Chunking is a good idea, since its a very good bomb target, and China's airforce is woefully weak to defend against Japanese opportunity bombing.

- Japan can cover (in WiFFE) quite a few factories with AA guns in Nagoya and/or Osaka, and again when their airforce is over-matched, out of oil, or decimated, AA guns are all you have left.  Of course the new map scale on the pacific changes the coverage Japan can do with few guns, but still it is some use when faced with overwhelming airpower.

- USSR - Leningrad and Moskow are both common STR targets and AA guns on these is fairly common, pulling triple duty defending the baltic fleets as well as stiffening the ground defences.

So there are times when AAs used for STR defence is a viable (but still secondary to fighter cover) option for the AI.  Germany unfortunately comes up short on this option.  Just too many eggs in their basket.

Very helpful, thanks.

[YohanTM2]

Interesting house rule, seems to make sense.

Where in Canada are you N42?

ORIGINAL: Norman42

Something I guess I should put out there as well is a house rule my group has played with for quite some time, making AA guns a viable STR deterrent.

-A strategic bombing mission that is shot at by heavy anti-aircraft units counts as an intercepted mission for die roll modifier purposes.

We've played with that house rule since 5th edition and never were disappointed in its effects.