The return of tristanjohn

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

In reply to Nik:

That's right. Didn't the Allies blow it up and take some stuff with them whilst the Japanese were a few miles away?

Can't do that either.

[mdiehl]

I agree totally. This is one of my favorites for not making sense. Across time, the conqueror has scoured the countryside for supplies. The victor in ancient battles scavenged the battelfield for swords, spears, shields, armor, food, etc. Why is it so unfathomable that a Japanese artillery unit, having men but not a gun, takes a captured american 150mm Howitzer and captured ammo for same, and uses them? Why would an infantry unit lacking ammo for it's guns not pick up captured enemy guns, captured enemy bullets, and use those? Why is it so hard to understand that Japan used captured B-17's, p-40's , etc. Why is it so hard to understand that Japan imported many of it's aircraft instruments from abroad, and would likely be able to use ones left behind? Why is it so hard to believe that a hungry Japanese soldier would disdain Spam and starve? (Um, strike that last I can see how the Americans would leave Spam behind and let the IJA choke to death on it.)

It's not easily done in the strategic sense, that's why. Consider your artillery. If you'd never fired a US 155 and weren't familiar with the proper propellant charges, you'd very likely f**k yourself, because US charges were quite different from Japanese ones. And that skips the part about being familiar with the ballistic profile of the charges and the shells (because a 155 is not a 155 is not a 155 .. that is, all 155s are not necessarily or even often identical in performance).

So to use one, you'd have to capture it and work with it for a while to get the charges right for doing that which you want to do. The problem would vary with weapon system. You could probably take a Japanese unit trained in the use of their mountain howitzer, hand them a US 75mm howitzer, and expect them to do all right as long as the ammo lasted. After that you have to send the US howitzer to Japan so that someone in Japan can make rounds for it, or else do some substantial tests to demonstrate that you can use Japanese 75mm rounds in US 75mm howitzers (which MIGHT, POSSIBLY, be the case, as both were essentially variants on the WW1 "Freedom 75").

For vehicles the problem is much worse. Breakdowns in military use are frequent. Assuming you've got mechanics enough to deal with the maintenance issues on Allied vehicles, you're out of luck when you are out of parts. For most of the SRA, the Allies were out of parts before the Japanese seized these bases. So most of the military vehicles that might be captured would be useless in very short order. Unless of course you send them to Japan for some fit and refit, and find someone to make replacement parts.

If you do all that send it to Japan stuff, by the way, you wind up with the Japanese version of "Crazy Adolf's Used Car Lot." In the long run it hurts your economy to have too many different kinds of parts demands for your travelling circus of captured equipment. Each time you add some wierd contraption to your logistical train, your economy takes a hit.

About the only things the Japanese could count on using from captured allied stocks were food and fuel. The occasional captured B17 or flush decker was not going to be very useful in an operation.

And there's an obscure joke in the above post, just for Mogami's entertainment. [;)]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Can't do that either.

Abstracted.....half of the supply captured is destroyed. sorry.

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Speedy

In reply to Nik:

That's right. Didn't the Allies blow it up and take some stuff with them whilst the Japanese were a few miles away?

Can't do that either.

Why would you expect to? WiTP is a STRATEGY game. Something like SP is on the scale where you can operationally blow up stuff.

[Nikademus]

yep...chaulk that up along with the "i'd like to be able to blow up my own industries/resources" request.

oh yeah....that wouldn't be gamey. Turn 1....japan starts war Turn 2....Allied player ignights the entire SRA.......move over Sadaam...[8|]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Speedy

In reply to Nik:

That's right. Didn't the Allies blow it up and take some stuff with them whilst the Japanese were a few miles away?

Can't do that either.

Why would you expect to? WiTP is a STRATEGY game. Something like SP is on the scale where you can operationally blow up stuff.

So why is stuff like this brought up as examples by you guys?

[Speedysteve]

Bought up as examples with no regard to this topic at hand. Just that we have read Allen and I was intrigued to ascertain how it happened...............

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I vote we simply code the supply rules from "Campaign for North Africa" into WITP.

How about we start tracking water. I mean those Japs, and Chinese and Indians all gobble lots of rice so they will need the "Pasta" point. (Inidan rice is hotter so they'll need 2 points) Water would limit stacking on atolls. We could even import that movement and combat routines. Turns will take longer and PBEM is out we'll need TCP/IP with 10 or 20 players per side but the game will be a vast improvement over what we are stuck with now. Imagine the nerve of some players using fish or tin to build A6m2's I vote the game move in real time. If you snooze you lose.

All the transport costs and ships will need redoing because currently you can only load 1 item on a ship except for supply on AP with troops and who knows what these Japanese have been using when they invade. Likely they are off loading supply that should not be used for LCU combat. (it's torpedos)

Yes lets just stop playing this monster and wait for TJ to finish his game. He might want you to pre-order the price is 19.95

[center]PinupGames™
"Where Realism Isn't Just A Word, But Our Reason For Being"
[/center]
Thank you for those kind words regarding our new upcoming wargame Logistics in the Pacific. We at PinupGames™ are always gratified to receive positive feedback from the public, but I would make a small correction to your reference to the price of our upcoming blockbuster no-holds-barred title (we feel this misinformation can only frustrate our eager and loyal fan base, which is already sitting on pins and needles in anticipation of the release, while biting its collective fingernail to the nub) which will deal, in the most minute detail, with the Pacific Theater of Operations in World War II in a manner, and at a level of breathtaking realism, heretofore unknown within the wargaming community.

What that $39.95 US (we assume that "1" was a typo on your part) actually buys the wargame fanatic is what we like to think of here at PinupGames™ as a kind of PWL (Personal Wargame License), which will afford players the opportunity to stand first in line (unfortunately, in order to ensure this title's proper place in posterity, this game will be published as a Limited Edition only, so I'm afraid it is first-come, first-served) to pay a mere $5.00 per month to rent this software . . . plus . . . our users will also be allowed to post FREE (forthefirstsixdays) in our online forum on any subject or topic which happens to spring to mind, and of course enjoy all the benefits of our normal support program of continual (ifsomewhatperiodic) product upgrades.

Again, thank you for your interest in Logistics in the Pacific. Should you have any further questions, feel free to write.

All our best,
The Management Team

[Mr.Frag]

Again, this is coming down to a bash Ron or any other critic, regardless if they have good intentions or not.

Not at all ... those who have played the game that long are saying overall this is not really an issue (unles you happen to be playing a "Sir Robin" type who gave up the SRA in record breaking time.

It's cause and effect ... quite simple ... it has nothing at all to do with YOU personally. You just seem to take everything personally [;)]

You have a theory ... you test it in practice to see that it is valid ... then you make recommendations based on results ...

You can't skip the test phase.

Your BB one is a perfect example ... sure, BB's can reload too quick early on due to the lack of specific port handling.

Theory: block BB ammo loading cause it's wrong.

Test: yep, there is a *short* term problem

Actual Results: While this is a short term problem, it is offset by the extra fuel burnt coupled with wear and tear on the BB's that take forever to repair and clog up your repair ports forever meaning other ships can't get the repairs they need.

Change required? No - so it goes to wish list item vs broken list

[Nikademus]

To show that enemy supply can and was used.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Again, this is coming down to a bash Ron or any other critic exercise, regardless if they have good intentions or not. This does not do the game any darn good.

I agree.... (except for the "bash Ron" excuse)

Play the AAR or Lock the thread.

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

So you are saying other peoples long running AARs are worthless? Playing this game (not sim) for three and a half years accounts for squat? Being a Pacific War buff all my life is of no consequence? From here I'd say I've batted a thousand with regard to my perceptions of problems with the game since UV. Unfortunately others are just opening there eyes. Look at the shit people are still pulling off after a year or so of fast paced no limit play. See any problems with overabundance of supply? No, then perhaps some folks have selective eyesight.

Again, this is coming down to a bash Ron or any other critic exercise, regardless if they have good intentions or not. This does not do the game any darn good.

Hi, I just posted a screen shot of a PBEM game using the most current version. How much help has SRA supply been there?

AAR are nice but of no use unless the Japanese player is posting how much supply from these bases
1. He is getting
2. He is using

To test something you need a control and then you need examples of what impact changes are producing.
You've never established the control (the normal effect your supply has on game)

Your taking AAR out of context because often the player is guessing. "I think KB is in port Kwajalean" and then 2 turns later "KB appeared off Gilli Gilli today and sank my battleship"

For this supply example you'd need
1. To track when a base fell under Japanese control
2. It's output on capture and supply present that date.
3. What type of use and when the Japanese utilize it
4. Show that without access to such supply the impact on pace of Operations.

You know conduct a test to prove your theory.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Again, this is coming down to a bash Ron or any other critic exercise, regardless if they have good intentions or not. This does not do the game any darn good.

I agree.... (except for the "bash Ron" excuse)

Play the AAR or Lock the thread.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Again, this is coming down to a bash Ron or any other critic exercise, regardless if they have good intentions or not. This does not do the game any darn good.

I agree.... (except for the "bash Ron" excuse)

Play the AAR or Lock the thread.

I'm willing but I want some adjustments made as stated above. I want this to be irrefutable. Be nice that when proven some assurances of change were made.

[mogami]

and of course enjoy all the benefits of our normal support program of continual (ifsomewhatperiodic) product upgrades.

Hi, Why on earth would anyone need to upgrade their product? Can't you get it right the first time? 5 per month your crazy no game is worth more then 19.95

[moses]

Original Mr. Frag.
Actual Results: While this is a short term problem, it is offset by the extra fuel burnt coupled with wear and tear on the BB's that take forever to repair and clog up your repair ports forever meaning other ships can't get the repairs they need.

Yes good. This type of thinking needs to be repeated because it is the type of thinking that has always gone into developing wargames since well before we had computers.

Unfortunatley some will now say " So you're admitting that fuel consumption and BB systems damage are screwed up as well."

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Again, this is coming down to a bash Ron or any other critic, regardless if they have good intentions or not.

Not at all ... those who have played the game that long are saying overall this is not really an issue (unles you happen to be playing a "Sir Robin" type who gave up the SRA in record breaking time.

It's cause and effect ... quite simple ... it has nothing at all to do with YOU personally. You just seem to take everything personally [;)]

You have a theory ... you test it in practice to see that it is valid ... then you make recommendations based on results ...

You can't skip the test phase.

Your BB one is a perfect example ... sure, BB's can reload too quick early on due to the lack of specific port handling.

Theory: block BB ammo loading cause it's wrong.

Test: yep, there is a *short* term problem

Actual Results: While this is a short term problem, it is offset by the extra fuel burnt coupled with wear and tear on the BB's that take forever to repair and clog up your repair ports forever meaning other ships can't get the repairs they need.

Change required? No - so it goes to wish list item vs broken list

Ray, half the guys on this board think it's an issue.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

and of course enjoy all the benefits of our normal support program of continual (ifsomewhatperiodic) product upgrades.

Hi, Why on earth would anyone need to upgrade their product? Can't you get it right the first time? 5 per month your crazy no game is worth more then 19.95

LOL[:D]

[mogami]

Hi, Those old monster board game must have drove Ron crazy. All you had to do was trace a path to a map edge and you had whatever type supply you required where ever you needed it.

I bet "Campaign for North Africa" still ranks high for realism and playability. (God I loved that game but could never hold enough players together long enough to teach them the rules. I've never lived in a town where there were more then 2 or 3 wargamers in the first place.)

Really Ron's model will work great once we get TJ's real time online game with 20 payers (freudian slip? players)per side up and running. I might change my mind and cough up the 5 per month.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: moses

Original Mr. Frag.
Actual Results: While this is a short term problem, it is offset by the extra fuel burnt coupled with wear and tear on the BB's that take forever to repair and clog up your repair ports forever meaning other ships can't get the repairs they need.

Yes good. This type of thinking needs to be repeated because it is the type of thinking that has always gone into developing wargames since well before we had computers.

Unfortunatley some will now say " So you're admitting that fuel consumption and BB systems damage are screwed up as well."

No, means a simple code change which was recommended along with the mine/torp restrictions but not implemented may never be.