PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

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el cid again
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RE: PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

Post by el cid again »

Very large battles get very bloody and differences in quality of aircraft and pilots (especially on the order of a 20-30 point difference in experience) tend to exacerbate that.

Maybe it is just me, but I think a large difference in experience PLUS plane quality OUGHT to make things very much like shooting fish in a barrel!

In a simulator, I will take the inferior plane. And I will win, mostly. It is not the plane that matters - it is the pilot.

I know a Chinese aggressor unit leader who was told he was going to get new Su-27s. "I don't want them" he said. "I can do a better job with what I have" (a version of the venerable MiG-21 - although a very very nice rewinged version in a different league than any MiG-21 you ever saw - the J-7E). No one thought it possible - but he was adament - and he suckered them into a contest: he alone without a wingman vs the most experienced flight of Su-27s in the PLAAF. He got two camera kills and drove the other two from the sky for fear of also being kills. But he had over 5,000 hours in fast movers - and virtually no one was in his league.

Pilot quality alone ought to be decisive. Air combat is determined by who sees the enemy first (today that includes "detects" by non visual means).
Japan had a real edge because they trained to see first magnitude stars in daylight - we still do not do that. The plane with surprise wins 9 times in 10 - regardless of other factors. It has been so since WWI and may always remain so. The way an experienced pilot wins is not to fight fair - none of this head to head stuff. He figures out how to ambush. Many really good aces did NOT enter the "furball" at all - they hung out waiting for some wounded straggler to limp home without a wingman - and then tried to come in on him from a blind angle. He also was probably low on ammunition and fuel. Victory is victory, and has nothing to do with Marcus of Queensberry rules. I win by deceiving you about where I am - until it is too late. And I put all my energy into knowing where you are - even when it is "impossible" I will know.
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tsimmonds
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RE: PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

Post by tsimmonds »

At Saipan, Spruance had read his orders, understood them, and followed them to the letter. When the resulting contretemps subsided and people finally understood that this was in fact exactly what had happened, Halsey made certain that his orders for the Leyte operation included an escape clause that would permit him to abandon the landings and play cowboy. We all know the result there. Which operation was the failure: the one in which the landing succeeded (with insignificant friendly naval and air losses) and covering forces destroyed 3 enemy carriers and several hundred aircraft and trained aviators, or the one in which the landing succeeded (with serious friendly naval losses, including three carriers, several hundred aircraft, and a couple thousand sailors lost) and covering forces destroyed 4 enemy carriers, several hundred aircraft and untrained aviators, and a dozen irrelevant battleships and cruisers? The Saipan operation (which included as a prominent feature a non-decisive but clearly successful naval battle) was a resounding success. The Leyte operation (which included as a prominent feature a non-decisive but clearly fu3ked-up series of naval battles) was also a resounding success.

I guess I just don't understand your definition of "operational defeat". If the Saipan invasion was an operational defeat, please point to an operational victory....
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el cid again
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RE: PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

Post by el cid again »

But, an *exchange ratio* is something that happens over time for a number of engagements. You can not expect that ratio to hold for every engagement. There were times when the Japanese, even in 1945, were able to achieve surprise and had a positive *engagement ratio* for that engagement. Additionally, the historic *engagement ratio* is for historic forces. As soon as a game of War in the Pacific gets to turn 2 things are no longer historic.

More than this, an exchange ratio is in the context of the missions and the technical details of them. If we had a perfect model, most players would NOT get historical exchange ratios because they are not giving historical orders. Change the altitude, change wether or not you escort, lots of things will affect the exchange ratio. What we need is a ball part engine - not a perfect one - one that lets it be bad when we screw up and not so bad when we get it right. And same same for the enemy. IF BOTH sides do good - it may well be bloody. As a real world anti-air warfare specialist - that sounds right to me.
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RE: PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: el cid again
A "failure" or "mistake" or "momentary or one-off lapse" here and there during an operation is one thing, an "operational defeat" per se is quite another. My point is that we did not suffer any kind of defeat, in any manner, shape or form, in the Marianas. You said we did. Therefore you were mistaken. End of point.

I'm hardly about 90% confused as to what happened, Sid. You're not the only person on this board who has a sound education in military history. You ought to believe that, though you sometimes seem not to.

To begin at the end, I don't think I have a "sound education in military history." I once asked a (British) historian I knew fairly well - the historian of Evergreen State University - an unusual school that allows you to define your own program in any field - about getting a degree in history. She said "Don't you dare." She went on to say things too flattering to repeat - but the point is I have no education in history whatever in a formal academic sense - although I do write for academics and authors - particularly on the technical side - and particularly about Japan.

What I do have is a bit of formal military training - and exposure to IDF under circumstances we cannot talk about (because we were never there). And also I have an article from US professional naval literature whose thesis I am merely agreeing with - not inventing. The US did suffer an operational defeat at the Marianas - and we need to insure our naval-air students understand this - and why. There was nothing momentary about it. We had a fundamentally flawed operational plan, based on a wholly incorrect assessment of the situation by our commander. He thought he understood what the Japanese commander was thinking and could do - and he had it exactly backwards. The Japanese commander understood what we were going to do, and when and where we were going to do it. He did all you can ask a good fleet commander of the carrier sort to do: he put his carriers undetected in range of the enemy and launched what was to that point the largest naval air strike in the history of Japan - and possibly of the world. That it turned to mud tactically he could not know - nor could we. That the scope of our tactical victory outweighed the utter mess we made of things operationally does not change that we better NOT be letting OTHER enemy carrier fleets get undetected into strike range and launch a full strike against us. This is a really big deal and I don't care a whit who is upset by saying so - or what their formal credentials may be? It needs to be understood and I will say it at every opportunity. In fact the more unpopular it is the more it needs to be said. I think IDF has it right:

"The side that wins is not the side that makes the fewest mistakes. The side that wins is the side that learns from its mistakes fastest. This requires ruthless self criticism without any trace of sentiment."

My problem with your thesis is the Japanese plan called for their strike to be launched well outside American range using Guam as a staging base. The carrier planes would launch strike the Americans and return to Guam and not the carriers then rearm and refuel and return to the carriers, thereby allowing Ozawa to keep his carriers well outside the range of the Americans.

In addition the Japanese were far from undetected having been shadowed by American submarines for five days, in addition Ozawa had broken radio silence to order the Guam based aircraft to attack.
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RE: PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: el cid again
A "failure" or "mistake" or "momentary or one-off lapse" here and there during an operation is one thing, an "operational defeat" per se is quite another. My point is that we did not suffer any kind of defeat, in any manner, shape or form, in the Marianas. You said we did. Therefore you were mistaken. End of point.

I'm hardly about 90% confused as to what happened, Sid. You're not the only person on this board who has a sound education in military history. You ought to believe that, though you sometimes seem not to.

To begin at the end, I don't think I have a "sound education in military history." I once asked a (British) historian I knew fairly well - the historian of Evergreen State University - an unusual school that allows you to define your own program in any field - about getting a degree in history. She said "Don't you dare." She went on to say things too flattering to repeat - but the point is I have no education in history whatever in a formal academic sense - although I do write for academics and authors - particularly on the technical side - and particularly about Japan.

What I do have is a bit of formal military training - and exposure to IDF under circumstances we cannot talk about (because we were never there). And also I have an article from US professional naval literature whose thesis I am merely agreeing with - not inventing. The US did suffer an operational defeat at the Marianas - and we need to insure our naval-air students understand this - and why. There was nothing momentary about it. We had a fundamentally flawed operational plan, based on a wholly incorrect assessment of the situation by our commander. He thought he understood what the Japanese commander was thinking and could do - and he had it exactly backwards. The Japanese commander understood what we were going to do, and when and where we were going to do it. He did all you can ask a good fleet commander of the carrier sort to do: he put his carriers undetected in range of the enemy and launched what was to that point the largest naval air strike in the history of Japan - and possibly of the world. That it turned to mud tactically he could not know - nor could we. That the scope of our tactical victory outweighed the utter mess we made of things operationally does not change that we better NOT be letting OTHER enemy carrier fleets get undetected into strike range and launch a full strike against us. This is a really big deal and I don't care a whit who is upset by saying so - or what their formal credentials may be? It needs to be understood and I will say it at every opportunity. In fact the more unpopular it is the more it needs to be said. I think IDF has it right:

"The side that wins is not the side that makes the fewest mistakes. The side that wins is the side that learns from its mistakes fastest. This requires ruthless self criticism without any trace of sentiment."

My problem with your thesis is the Japanese plan called for their strike to be launched well outside American range using Guam as a staging base. The carrier planes would launch strike the Americans and return to Guam and not the carriers then rearm and refuel and return to the carriers, thereby allowing Ozawa to keep his carriers well outside the range of the Americans.

In addition the Japanese were far from undetected having been shadowed by American submarines for five days, in addition Ozawa had broken radio silence to order the Guam based aircraft to attack.

ABSOLUTELY. They were hardly "unspotted" when two of their best CV's had been sunk by US subs. Their "plan" called for taking advantage of their A/C's longer range and the Mariania's Airfields to strike from ranges at which the US couldn't retaliate. Nimitz accepted this scenario, and used TF 58 defensively.
With the US's massive superiority in Radar, AAA, and Fighter Direction Center control, he realized that the Japanese plan actually played to US strengths. "The Great Mariana's Turkey Shoot" was a well-planned defensive victory. Who wound up chasing who home?
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RE: PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ABSOLUTELY. They were hardly "unspotted" when two of their best CV's had been sunk by US subs. Their "plan" called for taking advantage of their A/C's longer range and the Mariania's Airfields to strike from ranges at which the US couldn't retaliate. Nimitz accepted this scenario, and used TF 58 defensively.
With the US's massive superiority in Radar, AAA, and Fighter Direction Center control, he realized that the Japanese plan actually played to US strengths. "The Great Mariana's Turkey Shoot" was a well-planned defensive victory. Who wound up chasing who home?

I think the shuttle-bombing plan (as it was later called) was not anticipated.

I also think you are quite right about the tactics playing right into the USN strengths at the time. However, AFAIK the plan was for more of a coordinated strike rather than such a piecemeal affair, which might have proven more troublesome. Who can say? We only know what really did happen.

Lastly, I have no problem with the idea that the battle was in fact a major victory and that we can learn from the parts that were less than stellar. Learning from your mistakes is an old saying and very true. Learning even from your victories - when everyine thinks you performed perfectly - is a cut above. I'm glad to know that our naval leaders are so highly professional.
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RE: PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

Post by el cid again »

I guess I just don't understand your definition of "operational defeat".

Harmony at last. We are in agreement.

My definition of "operational defeat" is not to base an operational plan on an understanding of the enemy's intentions when this is not supported by intelligence. To depend on the enemy behaving as you think he will behave is a gross operational error - and one that in a strategic sense the Japanese tended to make more than we did. To put a major amphibious force and supporting forces at risk of strikes from no less than nine aircraft carriers is a very foolish move - no matter how much it is hoped a new fighter untested in combat may achieve. [One USAF expert says it usually takes some time before the problems with a new plane do not exceed the benefits of using it. See the B-29 for a WWII American example where he is correct.] In an operational sense we were surprised. This was qualitatively different from Leyte - the enemy plan there was a very strange one no rational person could have forseen - and even if someone had no rational commander would have believed it.
The enemy went to some trouble to achieve a deception plan which, in the event, worked fairly well - making Halsey look a bit of a fool. But the idea that carriers would be at sea as a deception for a surface attack that late in the war is pretty radical. I am much more forgiving of the commanders at Leyte than the commander at the Turkey Shoot - although in both cases we did indeed win - and in both cases we could have been hurt worse than we were. I do not see any reason we should not have risked allowing a major enemy carrier force in range of launching all its deckloads - much less do so from a position undetected by us. We had what should have been overwhelming reconnaissance capabilities and we did not elect to take the situation as seriously as was warranted. That failure led directly to the operational failure- allowing 450 enemy carrier planes their shot. We are lucky indeed few of them delivered ordnance - and it never happened that way on any other occasion before or after. Consider the fate of US carriers in other battles when you say it is acceptable to allow hundreds of them in range of ours in this one.
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RE: PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

Post by BlackVoid »

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: BlackVoid

It's already fixed in Nik's mod. In stock game A2A is way too bloody.

Not quite. CAP needs to be tweaked.

Yes, it is. I ran a test CV fight 3 IJN CVs + 2 CVLs against the 2 allied CVs in Dec, 1941. The result was 2 crippled IJN CVs (they will most likely sink), 1 allied CV sunk.
The mod pretty much fixes the issue.
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RE: PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

Post by BlackVoid »

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Very large battles get very bloody and differences in quality of aircraft and pilots (especially on the order of a 20-30 point difference in experience) tend to exacerbate that.

Maybe it is just me, but I think a large difference in experience PLUS plane quality OUGHT to make things very much like shooting fish in a barrel!

In a simulator, I will take the inferior plane. And I will win, mostly. It is not the plane that matters - it is the pilot.

I know a Chinese aggressor unit leader who was told he was going to get new Su-27s. "I don't want them" he said. "I can do a better job with what I have" (a version of the venerable MiG-21 - although a very very nice rewinged version in a different league than any MiG-21 you ever saw - the J-7E). No one thought it possible - but he was adament - and he suckered them into a contest: he alone without a wingman vs the most experienced flight of Su-27s in the PLAAF. He got two camera kills and drove the other two from the sky for fear of also being kills. But he had over 5,000 hours in fast movers - and virtually no one was in his league.

Pilot quality alone ought to be decisive. Air combat is determined by who sees the enemy first (today that includes "detects" by non visual means).
Japan had a real edge because they trained to see first magnitude stars in daylight - we still do not do that. The plane with surprise wins 9 times in 10 - regardless of other factors. It has been so since WWI and may always remain so. The way an experienced pilot wins is not to fight fair - none of this head to head stuff. He figures out how to ambush. Many really good aces did NOT enter the "furball" at all - they hung out waiting for some wounded straggler to limp home without a wingman - and then tried to come in on him from a blind angle. He also was probably low on ammunition and fuel. Victory is victory, and has nothing to do with Marcus of Queensberry rules. I win by deceiving you about where I am - until it is too late. And I put all my energy into knowing where you are - even when it is "impossible" I will know.

Absolutely right. Pilot quality should matter the most, next is numbers and plane is only the 3rd factor.
Just try Corsairs with 10 xp against Zeroes that have 90 in the game and you will see it is wrong. Again Nik's mod mostly fixes this.
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RE: PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: witpqs
ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ABSOLUTELY. They were hardly "unspotted" when two of their best CV's had been sunk by US subs. Their "plan" called for taking advantage of their A/C's longer range and the Mariania's Airfields to strike from ranges at which the US couldn't retaliate. Nimitz accepted this scenario, and used TF 58 defensively.
With the US's massive superiority in Radar, AAA, and Fighter Direction Center control, he realized that the Japanese plan actually played to US strengths. "The Great Mariana's Turkey Shoot" was a well-planned defensive victory. Who wound up chasing who home?

I think the shuttle-bombing plan (as it was later called) was not anticipated.
I also think you are quite right about the tactics playing right into the USN strengths at the time. However, AFAIK the plan was for more of a coordinated strike rather than such a piecemeal affair, which might have proven more troublesome. Who can say? We only know what really did happen.

The Japanese launched the most coordinated strikes they could at the range and circumstance. That first plane off the deck can only circle so long before it has to GO or land and top off with fuel again. Kido Butai at it's very best couldn't launch one coordinated strike---They had to go with 2 strikes to put eveything in the air even at PH. With the ranges they were flying at in the Philippine Sea there were going to be several strikes.
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RE: PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

Post by Sneer »

Please stop wasting time talking on fixing air combat
LCU combat is in much worse shape and really needs devs attention
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RE: PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

Post by Ron Saueracker »

ORIGINAL: Sneer

Please stop wasting time talking on fixing air combat
LCU combat is in much worse shape and really needs devs attention

One is correctible, the other needs to be put down.
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RE: PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

Post by tsimmonds »

My definition of "operational defeat" is not to base an operational plan on an understanding of the enemy's intentions when this is not supported by intelligence.
It is certainly unwise to base a plan on an assessment of the enemy's intentions, rather than on his capabilities. But to speak of an "operational defeat" will inevitably cause confusion in the minds of one's readers, as the word "defeat" is usually associated with a negative outcome, rather than with an assessment of a plan made before the operation has even begun.
To put a major amphibious force and supporting forces at risk of strikes from no less than nine aircraft carriers is a very foolish move
The Saipan landings (which by the way is what I am referring to in this case when I use the word "operation") were certainly a calculated risk. Part of this calculation included the estimate that should the landings be opposed by the enemy's fleet, it would be met in battle and defeated. As far as I am aware, the operational plan did not try to anticipate what form the enemy's response might take. It did however deploy our main striking forces in between the enemy's bases and the landing force, from which position it could and did very effectively protect the amphibious force. This plan also deployed an extensive submarine screen to cover likely approach routes. But one thing no plan could do was provide for land based aerial reconnaissance of any significant portion of the area in which the enemy would operate. Submarines, although they performed admirably in the event, are no substitute for air recon; the information provided by submarine spotting reports can never be considered to be complete. And Spruance, well aware of this deficiency, understood that it meant that he would be unlikely to be able to develop a good picture of the enemy dispositions at the start of a prospective battle.

Given the existance of the enemy carriers, what alternatives are there to putting the amphibious and covering forces at risk of strikes, other than not carrying out the amphibious operation at all?
In an operational sense we were surprised.

Again, I am having difficulty making sense out of this. In terms of the operation, the Saipan invasion, we expected that the enemy might send his fleet and our fleet was deployed to intercept it. Preventing the enemy fleet from striking against our invasion force was TF 58's main mission. It certainly was no surprise that the enemy did do so. Perhaps when you use the word "operation" you are referring to the Battle of the Philippine Sea? Again, U.S. forces were not surprised, as they were fully aware that the enemy was approaching, and that he was capable of attacking at a time of his choosing, and with the advantage of knowing where our forces could be found. Spruance's choice was to stay close to the vulnerable landing forces lest unspotted (and potentially powerful) enemy forces evade his and get in among the invasion force.
This was qualitatively different from Leyte - the enemy plan there was a very strange one no rational person could have forseen - and even if someone had no rational commander would have believed it.
Your definition of operational defeat is "bas[ing] an operational plan on an understanding of the enemy's intentions when this is not supported by intelligence." Yet you excuse Third Fleet of precisely this error by claiming the enemy's plan was unforseeable or unbelievable -- this describes trying to divine enemy intent. Enemy capabilities on the other hand were either misunderstood by Third Fleet, or else were not sufficiently considered.
The enemy went to some trouble to achieve a deception plan which, in the event, worked fairly well - making Halsey look a bit of a fool. But the idea that carriers would be at sea as a deception for a surface attack that late in the war is pretty radical.
On the contrary, from my reading I believe that such a gambit was widely expected.
I am much more forgiving of the commanders at Leyte than the commander at the Turkey Shoot - although in both cases we did indeed win - and in both cases we could have been hurt worse than we were.
I wonder whether the families of the 2,800 dead bluejackets and aviators from the Leyte Gulf battle were equally forgiving.
I do not see any reason we should not have risked allowing a major enemy carrier force in range of launching all its deckloads - much less do so from a position undetected by us. We had what should have been overwhelming reconnaissance capabilities and we did not elect to take the situation as seriously as was warranted.

What overwhelming reconnaissance capabilities? U.S. forces had no LBA, and 5th Fleet's aircraft had considerably shorter range than did the Japanese. Spruance was unwilling to go charging off to where it appeared that the enemy's main force might be, lest the forces spotted turn out to be decoys. Decoys and secondary forces had featured in every Japanese operation of the war thus far, and Spruance was correct to account for them in his battle plan. Where uncertainty of the enemy's dispositions complicated planning, he returned to his mission: cover the landings. But let's suppose for a minute that he had acted differently, and had jumped at the submarine sightings, and had managed to place TF58 in the most perfect setup possible for launching strikes the morning of June 19. The most likely result would be the launching of simultaneous strikes by the opposing forces. And while it is pointless to speculate about the outcome of such strikes, there is one fact that is indisputable: any strikes sent out by TF 58 would have been appropriately escorted, with the corollary that available CAP (which in the actual event consisted of virtually every fighter in TF58's TOE) would have been considerably reduced. This battle would likely have been bloodier than the one which actually took place, and while it seems that this is what Spruance's critics believe would have been preferable, there is no certainty that all or even most of the additional blood spilled would have been Japanese.
That failure led directly to the operational failure- allowing 450 enemy carrier planes their shot.

Actually, the four strike waves launched against TF58 consisted of a total of around 320 aircraft. And again, you are confusing things by characterizing an incident of battle as an "operational failure".
We are lucky indeed few of them delivered ordnance - and it never happened that way on any other occasion before or after. Consider the fate of US carriers in other battles when you say it is acceptable to allow hundreds of them in range of ours in this one.

Perhaps the most significant factor leading to the small volume of ordnance delivered was the fact that the CAP over TF 58 outnumbered the attackers by a significant margin. Add to this the American technological (radar, proximity fuses) and doctrinal (fighter direction) advantages, and the conclusion must be that TF 58, concentrated geographically into mutually-supporting groups and not distracted by the requirements of managing, arming, launching, escorting, and recovering offensive strikes, was uniquely suited to fighting a defensive battle in support of its defensive mission, protecting the invasion force from the Japanese fleet. Philippine Sea is a textbook example of a successful defensive battle fought with little loss of friendly force and sealing the success of the operation of which its forces were a part.
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RE: PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

Post by witpqs »

Regarding Leyte, it was a major faliure of responsibility to leave the strait unguarded even though Halsey believed that Kurita had turned back (and indeed he temporarily had). Job 1 was protecting those forces at Leyte. He was so anxious to get on with what he wanted to do (when the Japanese carriers were spotted) that he neglected to take adequate precautions.

Regarding Saipan, Spruance did the right thing. My comment about learning from success still stands, but I disagree (and agree with irrelevant) that running off after the Japanese carriers would have been the better course of action (if that is what you are suggesting).
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RE: PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

Post by el cid again »






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Status: online Please stop wasting time talking on fixing air combat
LCU combat is in much worse shape and really needs devs attention

Joe says something similar. But a question: HOW can we fix land combat WITHOUT access to code?

There are a few issues of unit organization/equipment. We ARE fixing those. I also found some issues of device data. I have fixed those. But what else can we do? We don't even understand how it works very clearly - how can we fix it? You give me a technical answer and/or code I will fix it. [You got a big enough checkbook you can pay Matrix to fix it]
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RE: PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

Post by el cid again »

Regarding Saipan, Spruance did the right thing. My comment about learning from success still stands, but I disagree (and agree with irrelevant) that running off after the Japanese carriers would have been the better course of action (if that is what you are suggesting).

Actually, my focus is different. My first ship was an APA - the last ever built (USS Francis Marion, APA-249). Improperly (it is not allowed for my rating) I got to serve on (and eventually lead in a different ship) a landing party - which sent me to Landing Party School. I went on to become an AAW specialist - that is anti-air warfare- defending ships from air attack - and my particular specialty was electronic warfare - although it was not recognized as a rating for many years. My personal background makes me very aware of how vulnerable amphibious forces are - and also aircraft carriers. I think it is essentially wrong to risk amphibious forces in the way it was done at Saipan - given that we knew a major carrier fleet was operational. [It is different later - when there was no such fleet - and when there were no air units for the carriers that did exist. THEN the risks are much less.] The campaign in the Central Pacific is devoid of imagination. Japanese intelligence ALWAYS knew our next objective - mainly because they could read a map. We used a very expensive operational concept of frontal attack on prepared positions - even in places it is hard to understand why (see Palau)? To the extent we felt Kurita was going to attempt to challenge an invasion of Saipan, we might have attempted to succer his forces into a trap WITHOUT risking the landing forces. For example, he could not know if transports were loaded or not? It is not difficult to make more or less transport type ships look like different forms of transport ships. [My APA convinced most of the Atlantic Fleet we were a Dutch ocean liner - we even used a non-military surface search radar to let them intercept it - and was able to break into an invasion force. Can you imagine the cheers when it was ruled we had sunk a destroyer? APAs NEVER do that. We then fooled them into sinking most of their transports for us! Point: deception is not very hard with transports.] Let him THINK we are invading - and get him to come out to play - with a full court press of recon and other detection assets (submarine patrols, intercept stations augmented by intercept vessels, etc - OK - yes it is true I think electronically). When his task force(es) is(are) spotted, come up with appropriate plans to engage them on our terms, with no requirement to defend the invasion force - the deception force can run to the Southeast. One might or might not "chase the carriers" - it would be better to "meet the carriers" while they are still closing the range - hopefully from an unexpected direction - and hopefully launching strikes from positions undetected by the enemy. This was the very first time in our history we had effective fleet submarines. They could have done even better with better recon information, and an operational focus on them. At some point it is likely it might become profitable to "chase the carriers" - at least what is left of them.
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RE: PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Regarding Saipan, Spruance did the right thing. My comment about learning from success still stands, but I disagree (and agree with irrelevant) that running off after the Japanese carriers would have been the better course of action (if that is what you are suggesting).

Actually, my focus is different. My first ship was an APA - the last ever built (USS Francis Marion, APA-249). Improperly (it is not allowed for my rating) I got to serve on (and eventually lead in a different ship) a landing party - which sent me to Landing Party School. I went on to become an AAW specialist - that is anti-air warfare- defending ships from air attack - and my particular specialty was electronic warfare - although it was not recognized as a rating for many years. My personal background makes me very aware of how vulnerable amphibious forces are - and also aircraft carriers. I think it is essentially wrong to risk amphibious forces in the way it was done at Saipan - given that we knew a major carrier fleet was operational. [It is different later - when there was no such fleet - and when there were no air units for the carriers that did exist. THEN the risks are much less.] The campaign in the Central Pacific is devoid of imagination. Japanese intelligence ALWAYS knew our next objective - mainly because they could read a map. We used a very expensive operational concept of frontal attack on prepared positions - even in places it is hard to understand why (see Palau)? To the extent we felt Kurita was going to attempt to challenge an invasion of Saipan, we might have attempted to succer his forces into a trap WITHOUT risking the landing forces. For example, he could not know if transports were loaded or not? It is not difficult to make more or less transport type ships look like different forms of transport ships. [My APA convinced most of the Atlantic Fleet we were a Dutch ocean liner - we even used a non-military surface search radar to let them intercept it - and was able to break into an invasion force. Can you imagine the cheers when it was ruled we had sunk a destroyer? APAs NEVER do that. We then fooled them into sinking most of their transports for us! Point: deception is not very hard with transports.] Let him THINK we are invading - and get him to come out to play - with a full court press of recon and other detection assets (submarine patrols, intercept stations augmented by intercept vessels, etc - OK - yes it is true I think electronically). When his task force(es) is(are) spotted, come up with appropriate plans to engage them on our terms, with no requirement to defend the invasion force - the deception force can run to the Southeast. One might or might not "chase the carriers" - it would be better to "meet the carriers" while they are still closing the range - hopefully from an unexpected direction - and hopefully launching strikes from positions undetected by the enemy. This was the very first time in our history we had effective fleet submarines. They could have done even better with better recon information, and an operational focus on them. At some point it is likely it might become profitable to "chase the carriers" - at least what is left of them.


How do you simulate an invasion as a decoy? The US landed on Saipan on June 15th. The Japanese fleet sortied from San Bernadino Strait the same day. The battle itself was fought four days later. Don't you think that it would be apparent that this was not an invasion after four days?
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Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910
Big B
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RE: PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

Post by Big B »

In my current PBEM with kbad it's mid FEB 42 and we just had an encounter with the KB off Midway.
He reconed Midway one day, then the next day the KB did the patented 12 hex dash for an air raid and caught a few ships unloading. That turn I sent about 240 aircraft in from Pearl for a quick refuel and naval strike (the base can handle all those a/c).

So the next day after the KB showed up, I launched my strike against the KB, and here's where I get disappointed. The Fatigue of all US air units was less than 20, morale 99, exp avg about 57 to 58 (none less than 56). Of the 140 bombers (B-17, B-25) sent against the KB- with an escort of 93 P-40Bs only 80 P40s and 25 B-17s find the KB which is adjacent to Midway and spotted for 24 hours +.

The air battle that ensued netted only one 500lb hit on Shokaku (I didn't expect more than that from only 25 x B-17s).

But the part I found hard to swallow was the Fighter combat: 80 P-40s on escort were above the 90 Zeros coming UP to meet them (the messages kept saying "X Datai climbing to intercept), and the P40B has a considerable speed advantage as well.

When the air battle was over, 80 P40s shot down 17 Zeros, and 90 Zeros shot down 70 P40s (17:70 on a battle of 1:1 odds).

I know it's just a game and sh!t happens, but honestly, I can think of no historical example when in a good sized air battle (not 10 on 10 etc.) the US lost at a 4:1 exchange rate while having 1:1 odds and height advantage.

This is obviously the result of the differential in 'exp' in the game(57 vs 90), but be that as it may, I just don't think it's a reasonably historically probable outcome.

Now if someone can find a few examples of my air battle that happened historically with similar results I'll change my mind - but for now I think units starting exp rating is way too high.

B

EDIT: This is not ment to be whinning, nor do I think it's a game breaker - nothing of the sort.
I merely submitted it as an example of something I find unrealistic about air combat.
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Feinder
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RE: PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

Post by Feinder »

I'm not saying you shouldn't be frustrated BigB.

Just some things that may help you, since I don't think there will be any major changes to the air combat model any time soon.

a. Crappy planes are almost as good on escort as good planes.
b. The first thing you're trying to do is get a 1:3 ratio of escorts to CAP. Without the 1:3, your bombers won't launch. For that ratio, the number of planes matters, not the quality of the planes or the pilots.
c. It appears that CAP has a significant advantage over escorts. This is just my own "obeservational evidence", and should thus be treated with skepticism. But from what I can see, if you have 10 planes on "escort" tangline with 10 equal planes and exp on CAP, the escorts are going to fair worse than the CAP.
d. No matter what fighters you use on escort vs. KB, you're going to get slaughtered. I'm not justifying it, I'm just saying that's the way it is. Sure, P-39s will get slaughtered worse than P-40s. But (in my opinion), not THAT much worse.
e. The whole point of the escorts is to disrupt the CAP so that your bombers can get thru. If my escorts take heavy casualties, it's what I expected. Doesn't mean I like it. But they're just there as fodder. Even a losing 2/3 your escorts will disrupt the enemy CAP (fairly significantly actually).
f. Your medium and heavy bombers are fairly robust. Even if you lose a lot of escorts, the CAP will not be as effective against your bombers. You bombers are quite surviable, even if they don't hit anything (get used to it *grin*). In fact, your bombers are probably just as effective vs. KBs fighters, as your escorts.

g. All that being said, that's why I use P-39s as escorts.
1. P-39s suck on CAP anyway. It's too easy to draw them up to altitude and get them slaughtered.
2. At least as escorts, you can control the altitude they fly at (about 3' above the bombers).
3. You're just looking for a plane count to get the 3:1 ratio vs. his CAP.
4. No matter what you send vs. KB, it's gonna have a tough time. Might was well use the P-39s, since they suck at CAP.
5. The P-39s range of 5 (extended) is ample to fly escorts for most bomber missions. Yes, the B-25s and B-26s can fly 8 and 6. But with no escorts that can fly that far, you're never going to launch anyway. Do you really want to throw away the few P-40Bs that have escorting to range 6, only to get slaughtered?
6. P-40s of any make are too valuable to throw away on escort against KB (if you ask me).
7. P-39s and P-400s are you most plentiful fighter in 1942. Use them. even if it is for fodder. If they get shot down, you've got more. If you lost an exp 55 pilot, who cares, you've got more.
8. I'm actually (somewhat) hesitant to use the USMC SBDs vs. KB. While the LBA tend to be robust enough to handle the beating they get from KB (because they were escorted by crappy P-39s), the SBD squadrons will suffer very high casualties. I try to deploy them elsewhere, but most of the time, you're just hitting with anything available. And they do carry the blessed 1000# bombs. So it's a toss up.

I'm not saying I agree with model. I think it handles some things very well, and some other thing (like large air combats), not so well. But for "working with what you've got", those are my suggestions.

-F-
"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me

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Big B
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RE: PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

Post by Big B »

I agree with everything you said above Feinder.

And again, my post was not intended to be whinning, just a little grist for the mill for this thread topic.

In closing I repeat, I think the quickest, easiest, and most accurate way to fix air combat is to LOWER starting exp.

B

(PS. If your looking at WitP merely as a complex "game", it's fine as is - deal with it. It's only when you want it to be what you would consider an historically accurate and realistic sim that these things bother you)
ORIGINAL: Feinder

I'm not saying you shouldn't be frustrated BigB.
(snip....)

I'm not saying I agree with model. I think it handles some things very well, and some other thing (like large air combats), not so well. But for "working with what you've got", those are my suggestions.

-F-
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