Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: c92nichj
I found the following map on the net, not sure who made it, but I think it is pretty good. It have added swamp in the northern sweden just as northern Finalnd which I guess is pretty accurate way of describing the climate up there.

This map was made by Carl Ise a long time ago.
I took inspiration from it when making the first versions of the Modified Scandinavia map with Nils.

[Froonp]

Here is how it looks with the choices approved by Steve and us all.

- Tampere added, and a railway from Turku to Tampere added too.
- Norway-Sweden Border moved.
- Dalälven added.
- Names added.

About Finland there were not much feedback from you all Scandinavians. You jumped on Sweden and Norway, but what about Finland ?

I see on a WWII map that there is an East-West Railway north of Tampere, should it be added ?
Also, there is a railway going to the Baltic Shore from Tampere to the West, should it be added ?

And, the worst of all Pandora boxes, the Murmansk-Ptesamo area, is it ok ?

[Toed]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

About Finland there were not much feedback from you all Scandinavians. You jumped on Sweden and Norway, but what about Finland ?

My knowledge about the Finnish geography is sadly limited. But it seems the lakes might need some tweaking similar to what the Swedish lakes got. Thinner and appearance more like the originals. But for me to name them or say if they are on the right hexsides or not would require some research. Are there perhaps some Finns here with that knowlegde at hand? Here is a map with limited zoom functions that might help out.

http://europa.eu/abc/maps/members/finland_en.htm

Note that this is a current map showing Finland post WWII without the areas they had to cede to Russian aggression. But the lakes and their names should be the same.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Toed
My knowledge about the Finnish geography is sadly limited. But it seems the lakes might need some tweaking similar to what the Swedish lakes got. Thinner and appearance more like the originals.

I've said that to Rob the Graphic Artist, in case he uses my draft drawing as a template for his own drawings. But I do not intend to drawn them thinner on my draft map for the moment.
I also think that the Lakes I drew or Sweden are too much thin, and I think the correct size may lie somewhere between the Finnish exagerated lake width and the Swedish realistic lake width.

But for me to name them or say if they are on the right hexsides or not would require some research. Are there perhaps some Finns here with that knowlegde at hand? Here is a map with limited zoom functions that might help out.

I do not intend to redraw them much anyway, I think they do the job as they are. There was much taking and modifications made when I made this with Nils already.

Thanks for the link, I'll look.
Most of the lakes drawn on the MWiF draft map I did are some kinds of abstractions of a vast lakes & rivers network. They may not be exactly like that, but it would be too complicated to depict faithfully.
Also, the Swamp hex NW of Vyborg was another attempt at depicting this lake & river network.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Toed
My knowledge about the Finnish geography is sadly limited. But it seems the lakes might need some tweaking similar to what the Swedish lakes got. Thinner and appearance more like the originals.

I've said that to Rob the Graphic Artist, in case he uses my draft drawing as a template for his own drawings. But I do not intend to drawn them thinner on my draft map for the moment.
I also think that the Lakes I drew or Sweden are too much thin, and I think the correct size may lie somewhere between the Finnish exagerated lake width and the Swedish realistic lake width.

But for me to name them or say if they are on the right hexsides or not would require some research. Are there perhaps some Finns here with that knowlegde at hand? Here is a map with limited zoom functions that might help out.

I do not intend to redraw them much anyway, I think they do the job as they are. There was much taking and modifications made when I made this with Nils already.

Thanks for the link, I'll look.
Most of the lakes drawn on the MWiF draft map I did are some kinds of abstractions of a vast lakes & rivers network. They may not be exactly like that, but it would be too complicated to depict faithfully.
Also, the Swamp hex NW of Vyborg was another attempt at depicting this lake & river network.

The real argument against accuracy is that the visual image has to communicate the effect the rivers/lakes have on game play. A realistic picture would show a lot of small lakes and larger lakes that do not adhere to hexsides. It could be extremely confusing. Maps are compromises - the overriding goal is clarity of communications to the players.

[Ullern]

I have no strong feelings about the last changes, but some concerns about the addition of Tampere. I have the feeling that it will make the Winter war too hard to execute => USSR never denies => both less fun and less historical accuracy.

But the fact that the north of Finland looks entirely different may tweak things anyway, so I think the only proper thing to do is to play test it. I really don't think any further changes should be made to this map before play testing.

Nils.

[amwild]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Here is how it looks with the choices approved by Steve and us all.

I have one problem with this map, and it is only cosmetic...

The glacier hexes - such as the one a few hexes north-east of Bergen - should have a little texture so that they don't look blank as if the hex graphic was missing. Say, a little grey speckling around the edges so that it appears to blend into the mountains a bit, yet doesn't look like tundra.

[Froonp]

The glacier hexes - such as the one a few hexes north-east of Bergen - should have a little texture so that they don't look blank as if the hex graphic was missing. Say, a little grey speckling around the edges so that it appears to blend into the mountains a bit, yet doesn't look like tundra.

Someone also suggested adding some blue for a better 'ice effect' too.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

The glacier hexes - such as the one a few hexes north-east of Bergen - should have a little texture so that they don't look blank as if the hex graphic was missing. Say, a little grey speckling around the edges so that it appears to blend into the mountains a bit, yet doesn't look like tundra.

Someone also suggested adding some blue for a better 'ice effect' too.

Getting the terrain to look good in all cases isn't easy. For the one example here a blending with mountain hexes would look good. In the middle of Greenland it wouldn't.

When Rob gets back from vacation I'll ask him to add some blue (or something) for texture.

[trees trees]

Overall the map looks very good. Somewhere way back someone suggested dropping "Glacier" hexes as a new terrain type and representing them by ringing the entire hex with Alpine hexsides; (and maybe desert mountain inside?). I really liked that idea; adding a new terrain type for so few hexes doesn't seem worthwhile.

The new "Tundra" hexes are a tough consideration. In my limited readings about the Axis campaign for Murmansk (one of the "Forgotten Axis" issues of Strategy & Tactics from the mid-90s) it is clear that the hex in between Petsamo and Murmansk was one of the most unique terrains covered in WWII - a not quite flat but not hilly plain of pure rock almost. I can't recall the new definition for "Tundra" but giving it Desert effects for supply, swamp movement costs, and becoming clear in snow/blizzard would be a good start; it is good to keep it separate from how air factors affect regular woods hexes.

In current paper WiF using the Scandinavian map is somewhat pro-Axis as the Russians must commit forces up here if they wish to maintain the rail link to Murmansk but that is historical...the Finns cut it on occasion in the war; and anything that helps the Axis is good for the game. Moving to this scale on the "Scandinavian" map will make the Finnish ski divisions that much more potent as they will be more frequently in supply. This alone should lead more Russian players to demand the Borderlands. I'm not sure I quite follow giving city status to Tampere but not to Vyborg? (I thought Vyborg was the second largest Finnish city in 1939?) Making Vyborg a city again (it has been in previous editions of WiF) will further increase the vaule of the Borderlands to the Axis and make historical Russian activity here more likely.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: trees trees

Overall the map looks very good. Somewhere way back someone suggested dropping "Glacier" hexes as a new terrain type and representing them by ringing the entire hex with Alpine hexsides; (and maybe desert mountain inside?). I really liked that idea; adding a new terrain type for so few hexes doesn't seem worthwhile.

The new "Tundra" hexes are a tough consideration. In my limited readings about the Axis campaign for Murmansk (one of the "Forgotten Axis" issues of Strategy & Tactics from the mid-90s) it is clear that the hex in between Petsamo and Murmansk was one of the most unique terrains covered in WWII - a not quite flat but not hilly plain of pure rock almost. I can't recall the new definition for "Tundra" but giving it Desert effects for supply, swamp movement costs, and becoming clear in snow/blizzard would be a good start; it is good to keep it separate from how air factors affect regular woods hexes.

In current paper WiF using the Scandinavian map is somewhat pro-Axis as the Russians must commit forces up here if they wish to maintain the rail link to Murmansk but that is historical...the Finns cut it on occasion in the war; and anything that helps the Axis is good for the game. Moving to this scale on the "Scandinavian" map will make the Finnish ski divisions that much more potent as they will be more frequently in supply. This alone should lead more Russian players to demand the Borderlands. I'm not sure I quite follow giving city status to Tampere but not to Vyborg? (I thought Vyborg was the second largest Finnish city in 1939?) Making Vyborg a city again (it has been in previous editions of WiF) will further increase the vaule of the Borderlands to the Axis and make historical Russian activity here more likely.

The discussion on cities has Helsinki 1st, Turku 2nd, and Tampere 3rd in size. After Helsinki, every city in Finland is quite small to be considered a city in comparison to other cities on the European map.

[Ballista]

I have a good book on operations in the Far North (If I recall its called "Operations in the Far North 1940-1944") well as the Norway campaign, it also detailed the fighting around Murmansk and the Russian counter offenses to keep the area clear.

The supply line was very crucial- there was a very important bridge the Soviets kept bombing but missing. Eventually the embankment, weakened by the bombing slid down in the river taking the bridge and 300 yards of road with it....

It is a good read....

[trees trees]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


The discussion on cities has Helsinki 1st, Turku 2nd, and Tampere 3rd in size. After Helsinki, every city in Finland is quite small to be considered a city in comparison to other cities on the European map.

Maybe that list ranked them _after_ the loss of Viipurri / Vyborg? I thought I saw a passing reference to it as second largest in an otherwise brief discussion on the Winter War but my brain cells may be faulty here. Anyway probably only Helsinki rates city status.

But parking the Mannerheim HQ on the north shore of Lake Ladoga with the new scale should threaten the Murmansk rail line enough to make Russian demands on the Borderlands more common.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: trees trees

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
The discussion on cities has Helsinki 1st, Turku 2nd, and Tampere 3rd in size. After Helsinki, every city in Finland is quite small to be considered a city in comparison to other cities on the European map.

Maybe that list ranked them _after_ the loss of Viipurri / Vyborg? I thought I saw a passing reference to it as second largest in an otherwise brief discussion on the Winter War but my brain cells may be faulty here. Anyway probably only Helsinki rates city status.

But parking the Mannerheim HQ on the north shore of Lake Ladoga with the new scale should threaten the Murmansk rail line enough to make Russian demands on the Borderlands more common.

Look here for info about Viipuri:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyborg

You were right that Viipuri used to be Finland's second largest city until the war with Russia in 1940. In 1939 Viipuri had 80.000 inhabitants. During the Winter War about 70.000 of Viipuri's population was evacuated and the city has not even today regained it's former size. In 2002 79.000 inhabitants were living in Russian Vyborg.

So I think it's possible to place a city in Vyborg. How will this affect game play after Russia demands the borderlands? And how does it affect the likelihood of Russia starting the Winter War?

[Froonp]

So I think it's possible to place a city in Vyborg. How will this affect game play after Russia demands the borderlands? And how does it affect the likelihood of Russia starting the Winter War?

No it's not possible.
A city must have about 100,000 inhabitants to appear on the WiF FE map. This is the rule of thumb that ADG used on the WiF FE Map.

So Vyborg is too small.

Tampere is too small too I believe to appear on the map, and Tampere should not be on the map.
It is on the map because of a designer's (Steve's) decision only.
It was voted 50% YES / 50% NO (6 voters), and Steve decided it would be on the map so that Finland had more than 1 city (1 city only is awkward for reinforcements placement). I was against.

[composer99]

ORIGINAL: trees trees

[...]

The new "Tundra" hexes are a tough consideration. In my limited readings about the Axis campaign for Murmansk (one of the "Forgotten Axis" issues of Strategy & Tactics from the mid-90s) it is clear that the hex in between Petsamo and Murmansk was one of the most unique terrains covered in WWII - a not quite flat but not hilly plain of pure rock almost. I can't recall the new definition for "Tundra" but giving it Desert effects for supply, swamp movement costs, and becoming clear in snow/blizzard would be a good start; it is good to keep it separate from how air factors affect regular woods hexes.

[...]

That makes sense for Tundra. It's a nasty mess. Good thing that operating in Tundra, except maybe for some movement and combat in Karelia/Lapland, is such an unlikely event. And yes, air units should have normal factors bombing tundra - there's not much in the way of tree cover there.

[Norden_slith]

It is incredibly to the the details worked on here and seeing Denmark beeing - once again - beeing butchered beyond recognition. Denmark is part of Scandinavia and I have yet to see a game where Denmark looks like Denmark. [:D]
 
The problem here is of course the Belts (straits), the Sound (between Sweden and Denmark)  and Limfjorden (the waterway dividing northern Jutland from the rest).  I can see, its the Hex requirements that are responsibel for the butchering. But Jutland at least could look more real. Make Limfjorden a river, even if it is not, for practical purposes it is. 
 
The islands? Well, guess it cant be helped really.
 
Norden
 

 
 

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Norden
It is incredibly to the the details worked on here and seeing Denmark beeing - once again - beeing butchered beyond recognition. Denmark is part of Scandinavia and I have yet to see a game where Denmark looks like Denmark. [:D]

The problem here is of course the Belts (straits), the Sound (between Sweden and Denmark)  and Limfjorden (the waterway dividing northern Jutland from the rest).  I can see, its the Hex requirements that are responsibel for the butchering. But Jutland at least could look more real. Make Limfjorden a river, even if it is not, for practical purposes it is. 

Well, I'm sorry about Denmark, but Denmark was already part of the WiF FE European map, so it was taken as is. The parts under revision in the other threads are only the parts that did not exist at European Scale in the WiF FE game.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Norden
It is incredibly to the the details worked on here and seeing Denmark beeing - once again - beeing butchered beyond recognition. Denmark is part of Scandinavia and I have yet to see a game where Denmark looks like Denmark. [:D]

The problem here is of course the Belts (straits), the Sound (between Sweden and Denmark)  and Limfjorden (the waterway dividing northern Jutland from the rest).  I can see, its the Hex requirements that are responsibel for the butchering. But Jutland at least could look more real. Make Limfjorden a river, even if it is not, for practical purposes it is. 

The islands? Well, guess it cant be helped really.

Norden

Most of the differences here (but not all) are due to having to place terrain within the given hex grid size. A lot of the details concerning Denmark's islands really require a smaller hex grid (or no grid whatsoever) to model them well.

I am willing to make small changes here, but I am sensitive to Patrice's concern that we do not mess with the European map. It raises the spectre of hundreds of other (reasonable) changes being requested.

So ... how about these changes:
1 - Remove the land from the hex beneath the N in DENMARK; making it an all-sea hex.
2 - Reduce the size of the island that Frederickshaven occupies to two hexes, making the third hex (the SW one) part of the larger land mass.
3 - Make both hexes of Fred's island connect via straits to the same hex (SE and SW respectively).
4 - Make the hex where the Cop from Copenhagen sits part of the larger land mass - directly attached due west and connected via straits to the east and SE (the later is already true).

I am being careful here that a German leg infantry with a movement allowance of 4 and starting ni Germany can still move into Copenhagen without becoming disorganized - if all the hexes are empty.

This does not address your real problem (I expect) which is the placement of Copenhagen. Here the hex that C. truly sits in is shared with Sweden and Sweden has more of the land mass ni that hex. Hence the difficulty. The ADG geographer/artist/game designer trimmed Cop.'s island by about 25%, giving the entire hex to Sweden. I am sure that war's have been fought over less. If so, please invade Australia - not Hawaii or Marseilles.

[Froonp]

I don't think that modifying Denmark in any way will be welcomed by any WiF FE player. [:-]
This is a very bad idea, as Denmark sees a lot of action (mainly allies trying to open a new front in Europe by the side door), and crowded as it is already it will not be seen with a good eye if it is modified.
I for one, hate this.