Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Lowpe (J)

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

Well that's kind of silly. In my opinion.

Hey - in two years, we are going to build P51's at LA. But darn, we can't make ANY P-51's because LA was taken and we have no other place in the entire USA to build a factory 2 years from now that can produce P'51's.

The P-51 began development in 1940, at least. If the factories were to be captured by an enemy, they would be trashed, yes? Rather than let the enemy get their aircraft factories back in working condition.

Now, yes - repairs could be effected or the factories rebuilt from nothing, but there is nothing in the game to allow for building a new factory. To do so would have been rather complex (so many parameters: do you allow new factories to be built at any time? only destroyed factories? is there a time limit [e.g. have to be destroyed in 1943 or earlier because rebuilding just takes so long]? etc.) and for special cases like this only, so the game as it is written is really the best abstraction of the real world as they could get.

On top of that, rebuilding infrastructure is a very intense process. Aircraft development facilities are not just a building and plans on some pieces of paper. There are all kinds of tools and machine shops and such, and if those are blown up, you've got to remake those first before you can get back to the business of designing/building/testing planes.

Yes, but you are talking about an economic engine that was so flush with surpluses that it was able to expend a billion dollars worth of coin in just producing the atomic bomb. If the Russians were able to do it under the pressure they were under I am pretty sure the US could have figured out a way. Course, if you look at it from the Atomic bomb POV, then perhaps all those mustangs would have become redundant come 1946 or 47. I know that AE is playing in a fantasy world as it is but I don't think that even the loss of the whole West Coast would have prevented the US from eventually burying Japan.

This is true, but unfortunately it's outside of the game engine. They "had" to make capturing industry the same, so this is just how it works. It may seem silly at first glance, but as an abstraction it does make sense.

Now, why the aircraft factories for the Allies exist in the first place when the Allies don't use the production system at all, well... I guess they're there for potential strategic points, or for elimination if Japan captures them? *shrug*

[Anachro]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Now, why the aircraft factories for the Allies exist in the first place when the Allies don't use the production system at all, well... I guess they're there for potential strategic points, or for elimination if Japan captures them? *shrug*

Maybe they are there to incentivize the Japanese player to sometimes make the audacious decision to attack the west coast.

[AcePylut]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

Well that's kind of silly. In my opinion.

Hey - in two years, we are going to build P51's at LA. But darn, we can't make ANY P-51's because LA was taken and we have no other place in the entire USA to build a factory 2 years from now that can produce P'51's.

The P-51 began development in 1940, at least. If the factories were to be captured by an enemy, they would be trashed, yes? Rather than let the enemy get their aircraft factories back in working condition.

Now, yes - repairs could be effected or the factories rebuilt from nothing, but there is nothing in the game to allow for building a new factory. To do so would have been rather complex (so many parameters: do you allow new factories to be built at any time? only destroyed factories? is there a time limit [e.g. have to be destroyed in 1943 or earlier because rebuilding just takes so long]? etc.) and for special cases like this only, so the game as it is written is really the best abstraction of the real world as they could get.

On top of that, rebuilding infrastructure is a very intense process. Aircraft development facilities are not just a building and plans on some pieces of paper. There are all kinds of tools and machine shops and such, and if those are blown up, you've got to remake those first before you can get back to the business of designing/building/testing planes.

The way I see it - since the Allies don't have the capability of expanding aircraft factories, or changing what those factories build, or factories researching aircraft to increase their start date as Japan does....

All Allied production should be handled "off-map", and not able to be affected by taking a couple hundred square miles of coastline.

Note that factories can be rebuilt rather easily and would have been rebuilt, very quickly due to the "omg the Japs are in California" urgency that would take hold. It's not as if the plans and all the brains would be lost if LA and SD falls. It's not as if "oh crap they took LA, we can't build anymore aircraft, ever" would happen.

I can see these cities having "strategic victory points" to simulate these factories being lost and that affecting the war - but I can not under any circumstance buy into "We lost LA in '42, which means we aren't going to ever have any P-47's in the Pacific war" line of thinking.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Anachro

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Now, why the aircraft factories for the Allies exist in the first place when the Allies don't use the production system at all, well... I guess they're there for potential strategic points, or for elimination if Japan captures them? *shrug*

Maybe they are there to incentivize the Japanese player to sometimes make the audacious decision to attack the west coast.

Or the factories where actually there and someone decided that they should be there in the game too? [:)]

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Anachro

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Now, why the aircraft factories for the Allies exist in the first place when the Allies don't use the production system at all, well... I guess they're there for potential strategic points, or for elimination if Japan captures them? *shrug*

Maybe they are there to incentivize the Japanese player to sometimes make the audacious decision to attack the west coast.

Or the factories where actually there and someone decided that they should be there in the game too? [:)]

Right, but there's no requirement in the game mechanics that they actually need to exist to satisfy. There is the Replacment Rate method for Allied aircraft that would work just as well. They have only 2 functions by existing on the map:
-Potential Japanese hijinks
-The Allied player choosing not to upgrade them to a new model (P-38, B-25 come to mind here)

[HansBolter]

Or maybe the game designers never envisioned Japanese players deviating so drastically from history.

Maybe they never envisioned the Japanese side so overpowered that it could execute an invasion of the west coast.

They obviously overlooked these possibilities and fettered the Allied side to historical limitations they didn't fetter the Japanese side to.

We all know that if the Japanese invaded the west coast Europe First would have been history the afternoon of the day of the invasion.

The token effort of addressing the problem by granting emergency reinforcements obviously doesn't begin to address what a real reaction would have been like.

The Japanese have almost complete freedom to deviate from historical limitations while for the allied side PDU off is about as good as it gets.

[RangerJoe]

The P-51C was built in Dallas, it was identical to the B model. The P=51K was also built in Dallas, it differed from the D by using a different propeller which gave it a slightly inferior performance. I am sure that the Dallas factory could have been expanded.

[Drakanel]

I don't see any problem with this. Within the scope of the game, it's perfectly reasonable.

Let us be honest, if the japanese HAD taken the West Coast, that would have been an immense pressure to end the war. Yes, I have no doubt the West Coast would have been reconquered. BUT the public's opinion would have called for immediate peace talks of some kinds afterwards I think. Because you know, rebuilding your destroyed cities is often considered more important than conquering some remote and (at the time) undeveloped little island in the pacific ocean.

If you really want a pseudo-realistic reason for these "destroyed" air factories, think of it like political pressure. The ravaged nation has less resources to build aircrafts because it has to appease its population and rebuild destroyed and ravaged cities.


At any rate, it is not bad as a game balance mechanism. The game already favors the allies enough as it is. Because let's face it, this game is wonderful but it certainly does not present the two players with an equal situation. The only realistic hope the japanese players has is autovictory. Beyond that, there is just stalling... If the japanese player actually manages to take something like Los Angeles, he deserves a reward

[BillBrown]

I don't think so Drakanel. If anything, it would have strengthened the resolve of the Americans. I doubt that Japan would have gotten as good a deal as they got. Most likely, there would be no Japan now.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Air HQs don't affect the actual results of an aerial battle, to my knowledge.

By my observations and experimentation, a leader with good Air Skill and Leadership and Aggression in an Air HQ definitely helps with coordination and determination of strikes (as opposed to turning back at first sign of opposition). For evidence, just check the stats of General Kenny and other highly rated air commanders.

I think they could be capable of coordinating sweeps or CAP efforts by multiple squadrons.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

I don't think so Drakanel. If anything, it would have strengthened the resolve of the Americans. I doubt that Japan would have gotten as good a deal as they got. Most likely, there would be no Japan now.

+1

From everything I have read about American attitudes at the time, they considered any attack on the continental US a sacrilege. The response would have been similar to fanatical attacks by religious extremists ... and Americans owned lots of personal weaponry!

[Cap Mandrake]

Consolidated had 24000 employees in SD in md 42, square miles of factory floor, oceans of machine tools, hundreds of planes in production. Most likely they would have tried to boost B-17 production instead.

[Anachro]

Nice little website I found with factory info

[poodlebrain]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

Well that's kind of silly. In my opinion.

Hey - in two years, we are going to build P51's at LA. But darn, we can't make ANY P-51's because LA was taken and we have no other place in the entire USA to build a factory 2 years from now that can produce P'51's.

The P-51 began development in 1940, at least. If the factories were to be captured by an enemy, they would be trashed, yes? Rather than let the enemy get their aircraft factories back in working condition.

Now, yes - repairs could be effected or the factories rebuilt from nothing, but there is nothing in the game to allow for building a new factory. To do so would have been rather complex (so many parameters: do you allow new factories to be built at any time? only destroyed factories? is there a time limit [e.g. have to be destroyed in 1943 or earlier because rebuilding just takes so long]? etc.) and for special cases like this only, so the game as it is written is really the best abstraction of the real world as they could get.

On top of that, rebuilding infrastructure is a very intense process. Aircraft development facilities are not just a building and plans on some pieces of paper. There are all kinds of tools and machine shops and such, and if those are blown up, you've got to remake those first before you can get back to the business of designing/building/testing planes.

The game allows the Japanese to produce more than twice their historic aircraft output. How was that supposed to be accomplished without development of additional aircraft factory capacity? It would take all kinds of the tools and machine shops and such that Japan can manage to cobble together, but the U.S. economy just didn't have the ability. Don't try and offer any sort of quasi-historic rationale for why, just admit it is simply a function of game balance.

If history is so important, then how is the 2nd Armor Division in L.A. when it should be fighting in North Africa as part of Operation Torch?

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

Well that's kind of silly. In my opinion.

Hey - in two years, we are going to build P51's at LA. But darn, we can't make ANY P-51's because LA was taken and we have no other place in the entire USA to build a factory 2 years from now that can produce P'51's.

The P-51 began development in 1940, at least. If the factories were to be captured by an enemy, they would be trashed, yes? Rather than let the enemy get their aircraft factories back in working condition.

Now, yes - repairs could be effected or the factories rebuilt from nothing, but there is nothing in the game to allow for building a new factory. To do so would have been rather complex (so many parameters: do you allow new factories to be built at any time? only destroyed factories? is there a time limit [e.g. have to be destroyed in 1943 or earlier because rebuilding just takes so long]? etc.) and for special cases like this only, so the game as it is written is really the best abstraction of the real world as they could get.

On top of that, rebuilding infrastructure is a very intense process. Aircraft development facilities are not just a building and plans on some pieces of paper. There are all kinds of tools and machine shops and such, and if those are blown up, you've got to remake those first before you can get back to the business of designing/building/testing planes.

The game allows the Japanese to produce more than twice their historic aircraft output. How was that supposed to be accomplished without development of additional aircraft factory capacity? It would take all kinds of the tools and machine shops and such that Japan can manage to cobble together, but the U.S. economy just didn't have the ability. Don't try and offer any sort of quasi-historic rationale for why, just admit it is simply a function of game balance.

If history is so important, then how is the 2nd Armor Division in L.A. when it should be fighting in North Africa as part of Operation Torch?

Sure, but expanding the factories is different from making them again from scratch. I don't know because I'm not a subject matter expert on this, but I'm sure that in some cases some of the things in the factories that are in these cities were irreplaceable in the medium term. Things like specific tools, specific machines, and so forth.

Think of it like making molds and casts of something. If somebody comes in and smashes all your molds (in this case, factories), you have to make more molds before you can make new casts (planes). On the other hand, if you put more people and raw materials to work on the molds and . It's not a perfect analogy, and obviously if you wanted to as Japan you could increase aircraft production five-fold (disregarding for the moment the supply and HI consequences) in terms of the size of the factory with no problems from the game engine. But they convert to vehicle factories for Japan for a reason (Japan wouldn't be able to make P-51s in the US, or Wirraways in Australia for that matter) or go poof when the Allies take them because that's just what makes the most sense in terms of the game's design. This isn't an RTS/econ/empire building game. It's a military strategy game, and an extremely abstract one at that. The factories converting to vehicle or going poof is an abstraction of a very general idea of what the real-life consequences would be.


Also, was the 2nd Armoured part of the emergency reinforcements? I didn't look. If it is, then obviously it was pulled back from the in-game Torch to defend CONUS.

[poodlebrain]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna




The P-51 began development in 1940, at least. If the factories were to be captured by an enemy, they would be trashed, yes? Rather than let the enemy get their aircraft factories back in working condition.

Now, yes - repairs could be effected or the factories rebuilt from nothing, but there is nothing in the game to allow for building a new factory. To do so would have been rather complex (so many parameters: do you allow new factories to be built at any time? only destroyed factories? is there a time limit [e.g. have to be destroyed in 1943 or earlier because rebuilding just takes so long]? etc.) and for special cases like this only, so the game as it is written is really the best abstraction of the real world as they could get.

On top of that, rebuilding infrastructure is a very intense process. Aircraft development facilities are not just a building and plans on some pieces of paper. There are all kinds of tools and machine shops and such, and if those are blown up, you've got to remake those first before you can get back to the business of designing/building/testing planes.

The game allows the Japanese to produce more than twice their historic aircraft output. How was that supposed to be accomplished without development of additional aircraft factory capacity? It would take all kinds of the tools and machine shops and such that Japan can manage to cobble together, but the U.S. economy just didn't have the ability. Don't try and offer any sort of quasi-historic rationale for why, just admit it is simply a function of game balance.

If history is so important, then how is the 2nd Armor Division in L.A. when it should be fighting in North Africa as part of Operation Torch?

Sure, but expanding the factories is different from making them again from scratch. I don't know because I'm not a subject matter expert on this, but I'm sure that in some cases some of the things in the factories that are in these cities were irreplaceable in the medium term. Things like specific tools, specific machines, and so forth.

Think of it like making molds and casts of something. If somebody comes in and smashes all your molds (in this case, factories), you have to make more molds before you can make new casts (planes). On the other hand, if you put more people and raw materials to work on the molds and . It's not a perfect analogy, and obviously if you wanted to as Japan you could increase aircraft production five-fold (disregarding for the moment the supply and HI consequences) in terms of the size of the factory with no problems from the game engine. But they convert to vehicle factories for Japan for a reason (Japan wouldn't be able to make P-51s in the US, or Wirraways in Australia for that matter) or go poof when the Allies take them because that's just what makes the most sense in terms of the game's design. This isn't an RTS/econ/empire building game. It's a military strategy game, and an extremely abstract one at that. The factories converting to vehicle or going poof is an abstraction of a very general idea of what the real-life consequences would be.


Also, was the 2nd Armoured part of the emergency reinforcements? I didn't look. If it is, then obviously it was pulled back from the in-game Torch to defend CONUS.

The Soviet Union relocated much of its manufacturing capacity east of the Urals in the aftermath of the German invasion. They were able to relocate and expand production with a less developed railway system than the U.S. had. There is simply no reason to believe that U.S. would have been unable to do something the Soviet Union did. Remember the U.S. did not mobilize its entire male population, which made it unique during WWII. There were millions of men whom their economic contributions were considered more vital than their potential military service. The U.S. was making enough stuff to give that stuff to its Allies. Do you really think all those P-51s would have been made available for Lend Lease while the U.S. would have been left without?

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]Invasion Day 9[/font]
_____________________________________________________________________________

Another very good day in the air. I´m not sure how long Jeff can keep this up. He can only draw 12 replacements per week and squadron and he has lost 150 fighter in 2 days. And he can´t bypass the 12 plane limit thanks to PDU OFF.

Same limit applies to me but I´m not losing even 1/3rd of what he does. And I have something like 20 squadrons to spread the losses among.

This turn Zuikaku and Akagi planes where identified among the defenders. We did a little bit worse today because Jeff has put his CAP up at 30k. I have only the Corsairs up that high. The rest where down between 20-25k to save some FAT. I´ll be up at 30k tomorrow.

Lets see if I can slip some bombers in under his CAP and hit those AKEs at Camp Pendleton.

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]Fighter pools[/font]
_____________________________________________________________________________

As can be seen in the screen I can keep going at this for quite some time. Tomorrow will be smaller sweeps though. But time for some P38s. [:)]

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]LA[/font]
_____________________________________________________________________________

Another very good attack. But man my troops took a hit in disruption. I have to let them rest tomorrow.

Ground combat at Los Angeles (225,76)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 89208 troops, 1803 guns, 4216 vehicles, Assault Value = 3569

Defending force 48260 troops, 683 guns, 735 vehicles, Assault Value = 1143

Allied adjusted assault: 1542

Japanese adjusted defense: 2581

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
3105 casualties reported
Squads: 16 destroyed, 260 disabled
Non Combat: 6 destroyed, 37 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 14 disabled
Guns lost 88 (3 destroyed, 85 disabled)
Vehicles lost 25 (4 destroyed, 21 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
1516 casualties reported
Squads: 70 destroyed, 100 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 32 disabled
Engineers: 11 destroyed, 17 disabled
Guns lost 101 (8 destroyed, 93 disabled)
Vehicles lost 120 (14 destroyed, 106 disabled)

Assaulting units:
2nd Armored Division
4th Motorized Division
41st Infantry Division
6th Armoured Division
40th Infantry Division
7th Motorized Division
8th Motorized Division
641st Towed Tank Destroyer Battalion
5th Armoured Division
3rd Marine Division
13th Armoured Division
LA Harbor Defense
Provisional Tank Brigade
603rd Coast AA Regiment
21st US Naval Construction Battalion
511th Coast AA Regiment
Los Angeles USN Base Force
54th Coastal Artillery Regiment
352nd Construction Regiment
204th Coast AA Regiment
24th MAG
37th US Naval Construction Battalion
183rd Field Artillery Battalion
188th Field Artillery Battalion
503rd Coast AA Regiment
165th Field Artillery Battalion
214th Coast AA Regiment
I US Corps
19th Base Maint Engineer Battalion
II USA Corps

Defending units:
9th Division
12th Division
1st Division
2nd Tank Division
7th Air Defense AA Regiment
8th RF Gun Battalion
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
12th Ind.AA Gun Co
2nd RF Gun Battalion
22nd Fld AA Gun Co
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
2nd Air Defense AA Regiment
3rd Air Defense AA Regiment
15th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
5th RF Gun Battalion
18th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
3rd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
9th RF Gun Battalion
11th RF Gun Battalion

Not really sure what sparked such a massive increase in DIS and FAT by this attack alone. [&:] Going to let them rest for a day and see if I can get it down a little.

In good news the Japanese 9th ID is pretty much trashed. It was down to 72 AV at the end of the attack.

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]Pencil[/font]
_____________________________________________________________________________

Jeff tried his earlier tactics of sending in smaller DD TFs towards the landings. I can happily report that it didn´t work very well. In fact it didn´t work at all. [:)]

Night Time Surface Combat, near Port Blair at 46,58, Range 2,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Yamakaze, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
DD Okikaze

Allied Ships
BB Valiant
BB Revenge
BB Royal Sovereign
BB Ramillies
BB Resolution
DD Vendetta
DD Nepal
DD Nestor
DD Napier
DD Nizam
DD Witte de With
DD Van Nes

Resolution starts the battle by hitting Yamakaze with the first two 15 inch shots.

Day Time Surface Combat, near Little Andaman at 45,60, Range 7,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Michishio, Shell hits 35, and is sunk
DD Asanagi, Shell hits 14, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
CL Hobart
CL Dauntless
CL Ceres
CL Mauritius, Shell hits 2
CL Capetown
DD Stuart
DD Arunta
DD Warramunga
DD Tjerk Hiddes
DD Van Galen
DD Arrow
DD Encounter
DD Jupiter

Day Time Surface Combat, near Port Blair at 46,58, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Okikaze, Shell hits 7, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB Valiant
BB Revenge
BB Royal Sovereign
BB Ramillies
BB Resolution, Shell hits 2
DD Vendetta
DD Nepal
DD Nestor
DD Napier
DD Nizam
DD Witte de With
DD Van Nes