Letters from Iwo Jima

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85
Ok, what source besides your opinion will you accept?

Well, I have told you what my understandings of the various types of camps are, can we use those definitions perhaps?

[Knuckles_85]

Storsien is across several different website with that exact same definition. One said it was from EB. I didn't check so if it's not then I stand corrected.

[Knuckles_85]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85
Ok, what source besides your opinion will you accept?

Well, I have told you what my understandings of the various types of camps are, can we use those definitions perhaps?

No we can't because if we didn't use universally agreed upon definitions then words lose meanings. I can say killing 1000 people is a Holocaust using your line of reasoning and it would be considered true.

[Jeff Norton]

Its very weird that my college will accept Wiki as a source, but, alas, the esteemed PzJgr Hortland won't...

Oh, the drama....

http://www.airport-images.com/city_2448654_Storsien *seems* to have found the city/town/hamlet/*whatever* that you have been decrying.

http://www.123exp-geography.com/t/18624159635/ even has a blurb about its nefarious past....

Shockingly, http://neohumanism.org/s/st/storsien.html also comments on it (must be some sort of Web-circle-jerk)

And, even these guys http://www.why-war.com/encyclopedia/wea ... tion_camp/ list Sweden as "concentration camps established by various countries and regimes"....

Oh, the drama....

Guess that lumps me in with the racists, deniers, and the ill-informed....

[Dino]

never mind...

(carry on locating a hamlet in Sweden)

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: Jeff Norton

Its very weird that my college will accept Wiki as a source, but, alas, the esteemed PzJgr Hortland won't...

Yes, considering that anyone can write pretty much whatever they want in a wikipedia entry, it is quite weird that your college accepts wiki as a source. What college is that? Clown college?

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85
No we can't because if we didn't use universally agreed upon definitions then words lose meanings. I can say killing 1000 people is a Holocaust using your line of reasoning and it would be considered true.

Well, there is a difference between an internment camp and a concentration camp, do you agree with that?

[Jeff Norton]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

ORIGINAL: Jeff Norton

Its very weird that my college will accept Wiki as a source, but, alas, the esteemed PzJgr Hortland won't...

Yes, considering that anyone can write pretty much whatever they want in a wikipedia entry, it is quite weird that your college accepts wiki as a source. What college is that? Clown college?

Hardly - University of Maryland. Seeing how a few of my professors (shockingly!!!) have added their knowledge to some of the technology entries, I guess any clown can claim to be knowledgeable on a given subject - guess they're handing out PhD's to any bozo these days....

But, its a lazy seeker of knowledge to just use Wiki by itself - even my school requires multiple sources to collaborate....

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: Skip_Reed

... north to Storsien, where a work camp was established in the beginning of World War II. The Soviet Union had attacked Finland in November, 1939. Sweden mobilised her army and the Swedish government was scared that pro-Soviet communists would distribute propaganda in the armed forces. At first the suspect propagandists were housed in bakery cottages and the like, later a barracks camp was built in the forest. The forced workers built a road (very slowly) in the area.

Ah, maybe we are getting to the heart of the confusion now. In Sweden there was a legal punishment called forced labour, meaning that a person could be sentenced to forced labour instead of prison. This is probably what happened, and that could be the source of the missunderstanding in the wiki-entry. These force labour-punishments usually went to areas far up north where the convicts were set to build roads or raillines etc.

[BlindOldUmp]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

ORIGINAL: Skip_Reed

... north to Storsien, where a work camp was established in the beginning of World War II. The Soviet Union had attacked Finland in November, 1939. Sweden mobilised her army and the Swedish government was scared that pro-Soviet communists would distribute propaganda in the armed forces. At first the suspect propagandists were housed in bakery cottages and the like, later a barracks camp was built in the forest. The forced workers built a road (very slowly) in the area.

Ah, maybe we are getting to the heart of the confusion now. In Sweden there was a legal punishment called forced labour, meaning that a person could be sentenced to forced labour instead of prison. This is probably what happened, and that could be the source of the missunderstanding in the wiki-entry. These force labour-punishments usually went to areas far up north where the convicts were set to build roads or raillines etc.

Now maybe these protections don't apply to civilian citizens convicted of real crimes (rather than just talking about how stupid the government is) in a court of law. I will admit that in the US certain states still have road gangs for less violent criminals, and maybe all these people were convicted in a court of law but according to the text of the GENEVA CONVENTIONS published by the International Red Cross:
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b28 ... 1e004aa3c5
Convention 4:

Art. 15. Any Party to the conflict may, either direct or through a neutral State or some humanitarian organization, propose to the adverse Party to establish, in the regions where fighting is taking place, neutralized zones intended to shelter from the effects of war the following persons, without
distinction:

(a) wounded and sick combatants or non-combatants;
(b) civilian persons who take no part in hostilities, and who, while they reside in the zones, perform no work of a military character

Building roads in the middle of no-where strikes me as military activity which would be a violation. if it's not a military activity why are they being built headed towards a war zone. And BTW - the part you quoted came from the article in the hunting travelogue not the Wiki entry. I don't know who the hunter is quoting. It possibly could be the area residents.

[Knuckles_85]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85
No we can't because if we didn't use universally agreed upon definitions then words lose meanings. I can say killing 1000 people is a Holocaust using your line of reasoning and it would be considered true.

Well, there is a difference between an internment camp and a concentration camp, do you agree with that?

What's the difference other than the connotation of the words?

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: Skip_Reed
Now maybe these protections don't apply to civilian citizens convicted of real crimes (rather than just talking about how stupid the government is) in a court of law.

Correct.

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85
No we can't because if we didn't use universally agreed upon definitions then words lose meanings. I can say killing 1000 people is a Holocaust using your line of reasoning and it would be considered true.

Well, there is a difference between an internment camp and a concentration camp, do you agree with that?

What's the difference other than the connotation of the words?

What do you call the place where you put interned enemy combatants that have entered your territory? In Sweden we had lots of allied airmen for example, who decided it was better to crash-land in Sweden, rather than to be captured in Germany. We put these airmen in camps, we called these camps "internment camps". What do you call them?

What do you call the place where you put your own citizens because they are of a certain ethnicity and because you dont want them in society?

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: Dino

ORIGINAL: mjk428

When you're in a total war, you don't worry about referring to the enemy in a polically correct way for fear of offending the fragile sensibilities of Europeans decades later. Even if it might result in a strongly worded letter from the UN for the use of racially charged words like "they" and "them".

Whether you want to admit it or not, those words ARE racially charged when used in a certain context...Like in describing the "stinking savages" that are now "downright reasonable" after being "gentled" by firebombing.

Used by itself, word "savages" is just another word...so is the word "stinking".

They words may be racially charged but it isn't necessarily racism that is behind their use. In Doggie's case, there's no reason to believe at all that the words were racially motivated and plenty of reason to believe that he was making the judgement based on the actions of the Japanese military.

Also, in case some English speakers are unaware, the use of "stinking" really has nothing to do with how they smelled.

[Knuckles_85]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund




Well, there is a difference between an internment camp and a concentration camp, do you agree with that?

What's the difference other than the connotation of the words?

What do you call the place where you put interned enemy combatants that have entered your territory? In Sweden we had lots of allied airmen for example, who decided it was better to crash-land in Sweden, rather than to be captured in Germany. We put these airmen in camps, we called these camps "internment camps". What do you call them?

What do you call the place where you put your own citizens because they are of a certain ethnicity and because you dont want them in society?

So no "enemy combatant" (If they were airmen they were POWs not enemy combatants seeing they were in uniform) has ever been put in a Concentration Camp? I can call an object a seat and you can call it a recliner but it doesn't change the fact that it's a chair.

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85
So no "enemy combatant" (If they were airmen they were POWs not enemy combatants seeing they were in uniform) has ever been put in a Concentration Camp?

How the heck should I know? Just answer the question instead of shifting the goalposts.

Edit: And no, since Sweden was not at war, we did not take prisoners of war, we got enemy combatants that we had to intern. Or perhaps "foreign combatants" is a more valid term.

[Knuckles_85]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85
So no "enemy combatant" (If they were airmen they were POWs not enemy combatants seeing they were in uniform) has ever been put in a Concentration Camp?

How the heck should I know? Just answer the question instead of shifting the goalposts.

Edit: And no, since Sweden was not at war, we did not take prisoners of war, we got enemy combatants that we had to intern. Or perhaps "foreign combatants" is a more valid term.

It depends on what I'm trying to portray but essentially they are both internment camps.

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: Dino

ORIGINAL: mjk428

Who are you to say what's fine re: someone's own conscience? Try to understand that in the latter case they may have been looked on as animals because of their behavior - not because of propaganda or racial prejudice.

A certain amount of hatred in wartime is inevitable...But, one CAN and SHOULD watch himself.

I think your father understood...

...I find myself hating these damn Jerries more and more. If I don't watch myself, I'll be asking to go back up there again.

Well that could be construed to mean his concern was about volunteering to go back to the front rather than sinking into a moral abyss. However, it would be dishonest of me to not admit that yes my father understood that. Still, if someone needs to believe that in order to sleep at night for the rest of their lives...

My father sent dozens and dozens of letters and that was one of the few times he referred to his actual war experience. Liberating towns and eventually finding the remains and walking skeltons of concentration camp victims had a profound effect. Before that the GIs didn't really buy into the whole "defense of the free world" propaganda. It was just another European squabble they got sucked in to. Once they saw firsthand what the Nazis had done they thought: "Hey, maybe we really are fighting evil." And they didn't buy for a second that all the rest of Germany was unaware of what was happening right in their own backyard. A big tipoff was that they all seemed to know about the thing they claimed not to know about as soon as it was "discovered". So, rightly or wrongly, it did make killing Germans a little bit easier.

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

What do you call the place where you put your own citizens because they are of a certain ethnicity and because you dont want them in society?

Shangri La?

Executive Order No. 9066

The President

Executive Order

Authorizing the Secretary of War to Prescribe Military Areas

Whereas the successful prosecution of the war requires every possible protection against espionage and against sabotage to national-defense material, national-defense premises, and national-defense utilities as defined in Section 4, Act of April 20, 1918, 40 Stat. 533, as amended by the Act of November 30, 1940, 54 Stat. 1220, and the Act of August 21, 1941, 55 Stat. 655 (U.S.C., Title 50, Sec. 104);

Now, therefore, by virtue of the authority vested in me as President of the United States, and Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy, I hereby authorize and direct the Secretary of War, and the Military Commanders whom he may from time to time designate, whenever he or any designated Commander deems such action necessary or desirable, to prescribe military areas in such places and of such extent as he or the appropriate Military Commander may determine, from which any or all persons may be excluded, and with respect to which, the right of any person to enter, remain in, or leave shall be subject to whatever restrictions the Secretary of War or the appropriate Military Commander may impose in his discretion. The Secretary of War is hereby authorized to provide for residents of any such area who are excluded therefrom, such transportation, food, shelter, and other accommodations as may be necessary, in the judgment of the Secretary of War or the said Military Commander, and until other arrangements are made, to accomplish the purpose of this order. The designation of military areas in any region or locality shall supersede designations of prohibited and restricted areas by the Attorney General under the Proclamations of December 7 and 8, 1941, and shall supersede the responsibility and authority of the Attorney General under the said Proclamations in respect of such prohibited and restricted areas.

I hereby further authorize and direct the Secretary of War and the said Military Commanders to take such other steps as he or the appropriate Military Commander may deem advisable to enforce compliance with the restrictions applicable to each Military area hereinabove authorized to be designated, including the use of Federal troops and other Federal Agencies, with authority to accept assistance of state and local agencies.

I hereby further authorize and direct all Executive Departments, independent establishments and other Federal Agencies, to assist the Secretary of War or the said Military Commanders in carrying out this Executive Order, including the furnishing of medical aid, hospitalization, food, clothing, transportation, use of land, shelter, and other supplies, equipment, utilities, facilities, and services.

This order shall not be construed as modifying or limiting in any way the authority heretofore granted under Executive Order No. 8972, dated December 12, 1941, nor shall it be construed as limiting or modifying the duty and responsibility of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, with respect to the investigation of alleged acts of sabotage or the duty and responsibility of the Attorney General and the Department of Justice under the Proclamations of December 7 and 8, 1941, prescribing regulations for the conduct and control of alien enemies, except as such duty and responsibility is superseded by the designation of military areas hereunder.

Franklin D. Roosevelt

The White House,

February 19, 1942.

Only some people of Japanese descent, in some areas, were forcibly removed from their neighborhoods. If the criteria was based on ethnicity alone, they would have all been. I don't hold it against FDR for coming up with such a heavy-handed solution to a real problem. I do think that anyone that used this order as an excuse to rob people of their property, and there were many, should have been shot.

BTW, the Canadians did it too.

As to what we called the places we moved them to: War Relocation Centers. Also, they did have limited choices. Some just moved to other parts of the US. Others joined the military. Did the Jews, once identified, get to move to Bavaria or join the Wehrmacht?

[mdiehl]

What do you call the place where you put interned enemy combatants that have entered your territory? In Sweden we had lots of allied airmen for example, who decided it was better to crash-land in Sweden,

The problem with your theory is that Sweden did not imprison just enemy combatants. It imprisoned noncombatant ethnic Germans, some of whom were in the nation before the war, solely because they were ethnically German. That makes Sweden's camps ethnic internment camps every bit as much as the American ones.

We put these airmen in camps, we called these camps "internment camps". What do you call them?

The US didn't have prisons for combatants when the US was a neutral state. From 1939-Dec 7 1941 (and in the Japanese case, from 1936-Dec 7 1941), Chinese nationalists, Japanese, German, Italian, and UK/Commonwealth military personnel and citizens were free-ranging so to speak. It was only in those nations that collaborated with Germany (Sweden, Switzerland) that being an allied combatant landed you in jail.

After 7 December 1941, German, Japanese, and Italian citizens were deported to neutral states, not imprisoned. German, Japanese and Italian combatants were placed in Prisoner of War Camps (where, among other things, Italians and Germans complimented the US Military for serving them better food in prison than they received when they were active duty Italian armed forces).

What do you call the place where you put your own citizens because they are of a certain ethnicity and because you dont want them in society?

Internment camps. These were used primarily for people of ethnic Japanese descent from the Hawaiian Islands, and from the west coast of the United States. Japanese-Americans in other states were not in general interned unless there were documented connections with Japanese nationalist groups.

No one here's gonna say that locking people up for being Japanese-American was a good idea in general. There ought to have been a good investigative process to pre-screen people prior to internment (or else to follow up after internment). But in Dec-April 1942, fears about what the Japanese military *might* do to the United States were almost as irrational as the options available to a Japanese player in WitP. In Tucson, Arizona, for example, which is 409 miles, two mountain ranges, and one vast stinking desert removed from the nearest usable port (San Diego, California), the local Civil Defense Council crafted a plan to evacuate the local civilian population into the Santa Catalina mountains (no joke), and drilled Civil Defense Wardens on Japanese aircraft recognition, on the theory that somehow the IJA or IJAAF would find a way to roll into or over Tucson in force.

What they'd have done once they'd all "escaped" to the Santa Catalinas beats me. Starved to death probably. But in any case there wasn't an ice-cube's chance in hell that a Japanese *squad* much less an army was going to land in Hawaii, much less Tucson. War hysteria will do that sort of thing.