The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

[oldman45]

It is too easy to build a tender that the French could not have the US build one for them or convert one from their existing merchants.

If the Japanese can find it in their hearts to cooperate between the military branches, some how between 1936 and 1940 the French can build something in the Pacific to support a Cruiser/Destroyer squadron.

ok that's my story and I am sticking with it. [:D]

[John 3rd]

I LEAN in that direction myself Sir, however, one must be wary of NASTY John! [8D]

[oldman45]

I know that John is right, but we have to think a little out of the box

[John 3rd]

"What is a box?"

[oldman45]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

"What is a box?"

I do hope your poking fun.[:)]

[DOCUP]

Like your ideas John.  For the French Land-Lease them some support ships.  Early conversions of some of the US ships?  I understand what JWE is saying and I agree but thinking outside of that box.
 
What about some early DE or SCs for the US?  Also what are your thoughts with AC replacements and or earlier introduction of some AC?
 
doc

[oldman45]

Is there any serious thought to mod the map to include madagascar. There were minor facilities there. If it could be added, even an off map hex, that could be where the "main" French base can be. Perhaps it could be slowly built up to show the allies helping France build a base.

[oldman45]

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Like your ideas John.  For the French Land-Lease them some support ships.  Early conversions of some of the US ships?  I understand what JWE is saying and I agree but thinking outside of that box.

What about some early DE or SCs for the US?  Also what are your thoughts with AC replacements and or earlier introduction of some AC?

doc

Unless we can come up with a work around for the europe first policy, not sure we could justify adding more escorts early in the war.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: JWE

Ok, John, putting on my nasty hat:

There is no way, no how, that a Naval Power would deploy any significant elements of thier Fleet, especially half way round the world into a "third world" region, without having a major Naval Base or a significant Fleet Train element, in-area.

The Brits couldn't do squat till '44-'45 when they brought their Train thru the Canal (and that's even with Colombo in-hand). The French eventually deployed 1/5 of their Naval assets in SE Asia, but that was only because a portion of the Brit Fleet Train was politically ordered to support them.

French Fleet was a Mediterranean counter to the Italians. As such, they had doo-doo for out-of-area support. For additions to the opening day festivities, I can see maybe a DesDiv, and stretching it a bit, a DesDiv and a CL, or maybe even a DesRon (but doubt it). But that's about it. Anything else is utter fantasy and completely unsuportable, by any rational metric.

Ciao. Mr Nasty John.

Mister NASTY John.

If the Frenchies are not up to the task, with no Support Shipping, is their an alternative? I like adding the French as a contingent but if it is impossible from a deep water Port thought then what else might there be?

Perhaps go with a DesDiv of 4 DDs and a few SS? What is the Port size needed to replennish Torps?

Cut a deal with the French ships in Egypt - instead of sitting out most of the war - and then use them as IRL - as elements of the Commenwealth - supported by "British" bases and suppot ships. The main deal is get the warships into theater faster - and possibly in greater numbers.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Is there any serious thought to mod the map to include madagascar. There were minor facilities there. If it could be added, even an off map hex, that could be where the "main" French base can be. Perhaps it could be slowly built up to show the allies helping France build a base.

Rename Mombasa Madagascar. Adjust assets appropriately. I like it a lot.

The problem with a more sophisticated change is that a table needs to be understood - or you cannot move ships to-from the map. When it is understood - it can then be located "correctly" in terms of transit times. But Mombasa is close enough. Really good idea.

[JeffroK]

My only comment is that in some arguements we are talking about hypothetical what ifs from far alt history land and then quibble over the availability of an AV or AS.
 
It cant be a dream PLUS be firmly anchored in real life.

[Skyland]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The MN had no dedicated submarine tenders.

That is not correct.
Jules Verne was launch as an AS in 1931. Able to support 6 submarines.
Later converted to an AR in 1945. Scrapped in 1961.

As for sub support :
Cam-Ranh in Indochina was a permanent base for 2 subs (one lost in 1939 by accident, one disarmed in 1944). Saigon was able to support 4 subs.
Diego Suarez was a permanent base for at least 2 subs.

Note also that the initial destination of the SS Surcouf was Papeete (but was sunk as you know by US planes by mistake).

[Skyland]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: JWE

Ok, John, putting on my nasty hat:

There is no way, no how, that a Naval Power would deploy any significant elements of thier Fleet, especially half way round the world into a "third world" region, without having a major Naval Base or a significant Fleet Train element, in-area.

The Brits couldn't do squat till '44-'45 when they brought their Train thru the Canal (and that's even with Colombo in-hand). The French eventually deployed 1/5 of their Naval assets in SE Asia, but that was only because a portion of the Brit Fleet Train was politically ordered to support them.

French Fleet was a Mediterranean counter to the Italians. As such, they had doo-doo for out-of-area support. For additions to the opening day festivities, I can see maybe a DesDiv, and stretching it a bit, a DesDiv and a CL, or maybe even a DesRon (but doubt it). But that's about it. Anything else is utter fantasy and completely unsuportable, by any rational metric.

Ciao. Mr Nasty John.

Mister NASTY John.

If the Frenchies are not up to the task, with no Support Shipping, is their an alternative? I like adding the French as a contingent but if it is impossible from a deep water Port thought then what else might there be?

Perhaps go with a DesDiv of 4 DDs and a few SS? What is the Port size needed to replennish Torps?

Both Saigon and Diego-Suarez were able to support the french fleet proposed by John 3rd. Such deployement was done IRL before the pacific war.
The name of the permanent fleet in this area was FNEO.

[RedLancer]

I understand what the rationale for this mod is and I'm a bit confused why the Japan seems to be getting a complete design scrub over whereas the Allies are confined to the odd extra 'stock' ship here and there. I concede that a fully revamped allied side is not going to make things more balanced but surely adding a few more modifications to allied designs or new toys entirely might be in order.

I only feel confident commenting on the Brit side. Considering the pressures facing the UK at the time I think that the proposed changes to Force Z are about the only changes worthwhile early on. However can't we be a bit more imaginative than just adding Renown and Indomitable?

How about:

PoW with 9 x 15" and 4.5" secondaries.
Renown instead of Repulse
Add an F3 (Trafalgar?)
Add a Carrier - Ark Royal or an Implacable or an Admiral class - but with a better air wing based on the proviso that the Fleet Air Arm had some useful input - Sea Hurricanes, Skuas as DBs and Swordfish.

Later on introduce new aircraft quicker based upon the Centaurus engine - Sea Fury, Firebrand and Firecrest. Not forgetting the Merlin powered Sturgeon, Sea Hornet and Sea Mosquito

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

PoW with 9 x 15" and 4.5" secondaries.

Would have had 9x16" to match the US and Japan and over-match the Germans and Italians. 4.5" weren't designed yet when POW was building..., and the minimum size for secondary guns was considered to be 5". What the 5.25 needed was a better turret design and better ammunition handling facilities.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Skyland
Both Saigon and Diego-Suarez were able to support the french fleet proposed by John 3rd. Such deployement was done IRL before the pacific war.
The name of the permanent fleet in this area was FNEO.

Saigon would likely get whacked in the first few days, if it doesn't already begin as part of John's Japanese Empire. Not much help to a French contingent. Subs could work in several places. And maybe John or Stan could accelerate the arrival of some Brit fleet support units. Just want the Allies thinking in terms of basing and having enough ice-cream trucks to support the new toys. [;)]

The French 23DT has a load cost of 1025, so any Port 3 plus base support with about 200 NavSup can rearm torps. Maybe get John and Stan to add a couple ASs and a couple ADs.

[RedLancer]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

Would have had 9x16" to match the US and Japan and over-match the Germans and Italians. 4.5" weren't designed yet when POW was building..., and the minimum size for secondary guns was considered to be 5". What the 5.25 needed was a better turret design and better ammunition handling facilities.

Great some debate!

Which 4.5" are you talking about ? I'm suggesting the 4.5"/45 QF I / III twin turrets as fitted to Ark Royal, Renown and QE which would have been available and used on capital ships. Although the 5.25" was better in some respects its AA performance was not as good as it was heavier / slower.

I agree with your 16" sentiment despite the London Treaty 14" clause which would scupper both of us. A Triple 15" Design for the KGV (Design 15C) was mooted (and treaty scuppered) Had the F3s with their triple 15" turrets existed could well have been adopted.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

I agree with your 16" sentiment despite the London Treaty 14" clause which would scupper both of us. A Triple 15" Design for the KGV (Design 15C) was mooted (and treaty scuppered) Had the F3s with their triple 15" turrets existed could well have been adopted.

The "escalator clause" in the London Treaty allowed an increase to 16" (which the US exercised when Japan failed to comply by 1936). And as to a possible triple 15" turret, why not improve the already existing triple 16" turrets of the Nelson's?

[Skyland]

ORIGINAL: JWE
Saigon would likely get whacked in the first few days,

Yes, as Manilla, Singapour, PH, and so on but who knows that before dec 41 ?

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

I understand what the rationale for this mod is and I'm a bit confused why the Japan seems to be getting a complete design scrub over whereas the Allies are confined to the odd extra 'stock' ship here and there. I concede that a fully revamped allied side is not going to make things more balanced but surely adding a few more modifications to allied designs or new toys entirely might be in order.

I only feel confident commenting on the Brit side. Considering the pressures facing the UK at the time I think that the proposed changes to Force Z are about the only changes worthwhile early on. However can't we be a bit more imaginative than just adding Renown and Indomitable?

How about:

PoW with 9 x 15" and 4.5" secondaries.
Renown instead of Repulse
Add an F3 (Trafalgar?)
Add a Carrier - Ark Royal or an Implacable or an Admiral class - but with a better air wing based on the proviso that the Fleet Air Arm had some useful input - Sea Hurricanes, Skuas as DBs and Swordfish.

Later on introduce new aircraft quicker based upon the Centaurus engine - Sea Fury, Firebrand and Firecrest. Not forgetting the Merlin powered Sturgeon, Sea Hornet and Sea Mosquito

I think you are discounting how fragile the Japanese position was at the start of the war. The Centrifugal Offensive had success based more on the lightening speed and ill preparedness of the Allies than the overwhelming strength of the Japanese. Just increasing the strength of the PA alone would pose a serious problem for the Japanese. Luzon would no longer be a push over for the IJA. They would have to deploy at least two or three more divisions to take it with any speed at all. Yes, they could blow up Indochina fairly quickly but that would take time and time is against the Japan player as it is in stock. Even if you didn't add a single Allied ship, those changes alone would make life hard for a Japan player.