The Gamiest Game in Town - EL (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: el lobo
I have re-sized quite a bit but not what I would call wild. If I pulled all of the pilots out of the school right now I would have to push some others into the Reserve Pool under-trained. (Which is not a problem as they are easily sorted, picked and chosen.) Do you do that or do you have enough a/c to train them all?

Note that I play AI, nasty nasty it may be but still stupid and forgiving. YMMV
I usually fill out all training squadrons with pilots, doing bombers first as those need many skills, which are higher across the board in senior flight school students that get pulled first. Fighter squadrons get all the available places filled last (only 2 skills to train), no matter # of planes or flight school status.
I only put pilots into reserve pool when they have 65-70 in their main skills. And fighters are hardly ever in reserve as they either fly CAP building xp or are fighting on the front and dying in droves.
You will not have enough aircraft to fill out resized IJN training squadrons for a long-long time. And that's fine, they train slower with fewer planes but still beat whatever progress flight school can achieve. I usually get 1 factory doing Claude, Dave, KateN1, that is planes with obsolete engine pools to fill training. Later in 1942-43 when 2nd generation upgrades happen you'll have lots of frontline planes retiring into training and training tempo will pick up.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: el lobo


You talk supply, I think a/c. For example, how many airplanes would it cost me to take Midway? Conversely, how many airplanes will I gain by taking Calcutta? Same, same in reality I know, but a different slant. By the way, I have no idea of the answer to either question.

I think the same way as AC = HI. I want to net supply on an operation and I don't want to expend too much HI to get it. Each 1E AC = 36 HI ... quite a bit, yet not that much. So, the initial PH attack if I lose 25 AC and take 3BB's, I'm have to be pretty happy with that exchange. Of course those 25 AC include pilots and before 1Mar, pilots are near and dear as they are scarce.
Devices on a Midway op cost LC=6xHI. So, even a med arty piece can be 72 HI. The allies never have to consider this as they have no HI cost and more supply than they can use.

Taking Calcutta frequently nets me +100K supply and sometimes as much fuel. That's potentially 2500 1E AC when the fuel converts into HI ... and of course the supply repairs 100 AC/ENG factories.

So, I start with a base plan. I'm going to build so many AC/ENG factories along a certain schedule. Now, this plan is funded by what I know I can and will take (DEI, parts of CHI). There are milestones.
As the game progresses, if I do better than plan, and I am working to do so, then I can expand my production plan.

Expanding the production plan means I can take on more operations; I can afford the potential losses and still net above my original plan. However, if the 2nd tier plans net me ahead of plan, I can again expand more and .... you see how it goes.

I'm pretty sure Mike does the same thing, even though he hasn't really come out and said it. But both of us track everything, and then only build as the economy will allow us.

Success allows us to build more. Failure only means we cannot exceed the original plan. Original plan is not met only if we fail in some way with the core conquests, and at least for me, those core items (DEI/PI/HK), I bring the BIG hammer to ensure they happen and happen fast.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: el lobo


... but I will have my hard-points also. There will always be a Fortress Palembang aligned with Singapore. They are too natural and strong to do otherwise. I hope to create a few more chock-points like this.

I hope this better answers your question. It is just a seed of an idea for me.

Well, choose those units carefully in advance that will stay. They will need to be good, but certainly not your best.

Remember, choke points only work if the allies need it ... if they can bypass it, you have all those units in prison, units you need for defense.

Singers, the allies generally want for the RSY. But you know from '41 how difficult to defend Singers is. Don't forget the lessons you taught the allies in '44.

Palembang? I wouldn't bother if I'm the allies. It has nothing I need. I would level it with LBA and more on. Once the oil/refineries are destroyed it has no value.

Just thoughts ...

[PaxMondo]

[quote]ORIGINAL: el lobo

The name on my list would be Mr. Kane.


/quote]

Oh yes, he has given us several very good AAR's from BOTH sides.

His attack into Java as the allies ... brilliant stroke. And it points out why cedeing the initiative is so dangerous.

If you let the allies sit back and pick a place to attack like that it is very hard to counter. You've got to keep him committing units instead holding them back in reserve.
And is he doesn't commit, make him pay. Push him to commit units to OZ or India. Don't let him prep units to strike you.

I make it sound easy, but of course it isn't. Hence the fun ...

[el lobo]

Apr 2 - 9, 1942, Turns 118 - 124

In Java. I got to try the Oscar, Tojo, Zero, and Nick.
-------------------------------------------------------
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 9

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 4

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 3 damaged
B-25C Mitchell: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
----------------------------------------------------------
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 3

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 5

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 1 destroyed
-----------------------------------------------------------
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 3
Ki-44 Tojo x 3

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 5

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 5 damaged
----------------------------------------------------------
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 8
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 17
Ki-44 Tojo x 5

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 3 destroyed, 1 damaged
------------------------------------------------------------
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 7
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 6
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 12

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 4

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 2 destroyed

Shouting, “Rememer Batavia,” we make our first attack on Soerabaja.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Soerabaja (56,104)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 39704 troops, 532 guns, 377 vehicles, Assault Value = 1230

Defending force 9920 troops, 50 guns, 4 vehicles, Assault Value = 222

Japanese adjusted assault: 764

Allied adjusted defense: 105

Japanese assault odds: 7 to 1 (fort level 4)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Soerabaja !!!

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 2 destroyed
PBY-5 Catalina: 6 destroyed
Do-24K-1: 2 destroyed
DB-7B: 4 destroyed

[el lobo]

Apr 10 - 26, 1942, Turns 125 - 141

I have been doing as much reading and research as my spare time will allow so this AAR has been neglected.

The war has been plodding along.

In Java there are left seven units at the very southern tip of the main island.

Rio has added a new dimension to the term “Sir Robin.” I have taken almost all of Burma with two Para-units and three Armor regiments, not a shot fired in anger. This means he will be back with what, ten, fifteen, twenty K fresh AV in a few months?

A Division is sitting a Pegu waiting to move into Rangoon but I am waiting for awhile before I do so to make sure the oil from Magwe does not start to flow there. It looks like it is arriving at BKK and CRB already (see next post).

I captured Kendari on the twenty-first and spotted the TFs at Koepang in the red circle below. So far daily mouse-overs have shown a BB, CVL, AD and a DD. I now have some Zeros and Nells with torpedoes at Kendari and will pay them a visit tomorrow.

[el lobo]

PRODUCTION

I am about to “Tap-out” on the Magic Highway. Singapore will just not release its oil or resources. It is not pulling from anywhere that I can see. When I shut-off the tankers delivering to it, it steadily decreases. It just does not want to let go.

I am going to give Saigon and CRB a chance. I am rerouting and bringing in extra tankers to make-up for the extra distance. The real pain will be trying to establish some reliable ASW for the route.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: el lobo

PRODUCTION

I am about to “Tap-out” on the Magic Highway. Singapore will just not release its oil or resources. It is not pulling from anywhere that I can see. When I shut-off the tankers delivering to it, it steadily decreases. It just does not want to let go.

I am going to give Saigon and CRB a chance. I am rerouting and bringing in extra tankers to make-up for the extra distance. The real pain will be trying to establish some reliable ASW for the route.

OK, not knowing how much oil you are unloading at Singers, but given you have most of the DEI it must be about 3000/day and Singers is NOT increasing at that rate. However, in the last week CRB has gained 18K … if you didn’t unload that, it had to come from Singers which means you are starting to pull around the horn. Note how BKK is slugging 6K every few days … that’s the resource movement …

To my rather great surprise, I think it is starting to work for you. Check bases along the Hanoi to PA RR line and see if there is any oil at any base. If there is, well it had to have come from Singers unless you are off loading in other places …

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: el lobo


Rio has added a new dimension to the term “Sir Robin.” I have taken almost all of Burma with two Para-units and three Armor regiments, not a shot fired in anger.

This looks to be raising alarm bells with you ... it is for me. I wouldn't be as worried about Burma as I would some place else.
This is usually a very dangerous scenario for the IJ. Not suggesting you did anything wrong here, but that's the outcome I'm reading here.

So, get ready for something big coming your way. Be sure YOU have the places defended that YOU cannot afford to have in play (Hokkaido, Palembang, ...). Once you have those in good shape you can start to work on the next level.

While you are doing this, you need to find a way to sniff out his plans. Recon is your friend for this. AV TF's with Jake/Mavis groups on dot hexes. Scope 'n move (like shoot 'n move, but for recon [;)]) I create 6 - 12 of these little groups and send them out all over the map. Glen subs are critical for this as well.

Good luck!

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

OK, not knowing how much oil you are unloading at Singers, but given you have most of the DEI it must be about 3000/day and Singers is NOT increasing at that rate. However, in the last week CRB has gained 18K … if you didn’t unload that, it had to come from Singers which means you are starting to pull around the horn. Note how BKK is slugging 6K every few days … that’s the resource movement …

To my rather great surprise, I think it is starting to work for you. Check bases along the Hanoi to PA RR line and see if there is any oil at any base. If there is, well it had to have come from Singers unless you are off loading in other places …

I'm not as near as good as you and Mike when it comes to numbers but I can tell you, the only oil off-loaded to Singers is from Palembang only, what ever has been left-over there.

Occasionally, two-three times a month a tanker of oil will be dropped at Shanghai from Taiholu. That is the only other place I am off-loading outside of the HI.

I am also tracking the oil at Saigon, Hanoi, Haiphong, Canton, HK, and Shanghai. They are not included on the chart because they are consistently in the single digits, just as CRB was.

I have checked the bases all along the highways and railways and the only oil is in the bases from Singers to BKK, all ones and fours. Interesting.

Lets let it run a couple more weeks and see what happens.

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
This looks to be raising alarm bells with you ... it is for me. I wouldn't be as worried about Burma as I would some place else.
This is usually a very dangerous scenario for the IJ. Not suggesting you did anything wrong here, but that's the outcome I'm reading here.

So, get ready for something big coming your way. Be sure YOU have the places defended that YOU cannot afford to have in play (Hokkaido, Palembang, ...). Once you have those in good shape you can start to work on the next level.

While you are doing this, you need to find a way to sniff out his plans. Recon is your friend for this. AV TF's with Jake/Mavis groups on dot hexes. Scope 'n move (like shoot 'n move, but for recon [;)]) I create 6 - 12 of these little groups and send them out all over the map. Glen subs are critical for this as well.

Good luck!

Noted. With what settings do you get the best results on your sub Glens?

[el lobo]

Apr 27 – May 16, 1942, Turns 142 - 161

The discussion in the War Room concerning Brave Sir Robin is interesting. This game should be the definitive game for the action of which they are talking. Rio is doing the BSR on steroids and I am doing the limited expansion. The results of such strategies will be seen in a couple of years but one part of the discussion has been proven true, it makes for a very boring AAR, at least on my end. Rio is much more verbose than I am and it looks like his AAR is rolling along.

The game its self is far from boring for me personally. I could easily spend two or three more hours a day on the game and still want more time. I ask Rio if it is boring on his end and he said not at all. There is simply so much to do

I will post some screen shots but basically my expansion is complete once Ambon and Prome are subdued. I now begin my harassment phase.

Here are some highlights of the last couple of weeks.

The Nells at Kendari wouldn't even look at these ships.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Koepang at 68,116, Range 11,000 Yards

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
OS2U-3 Kingfisher: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Ise
BB Hyuga
CA Takao
CA Maya
CA Chokai
DD Fubuki
DD Usugumo
DD Satsuki
DD Matsukaze

Allied Ships
CL Sumatra, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AMC Kanimbla, Shell hits 10, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 85th JAAF AF Bn , at 57,47 (Magwe)

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 37 NM, estimated altitude 4,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 10
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 4
Ki-44 Tojo x 2

Allied aircraft
Hudson IIIa x 7

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Hudson IIIa: 5 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 85th JAAF AF Bn , at 57,47 (Magwe)

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 12 NM, estimated altitude 3,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 9
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 4
Ki-44 Tojo x 1

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 4

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 3 destroyed

---------------------------------------------------------------------
AIRCRAFT

The Zero A6M5 has advanced to 12/42. I have 118 A6M2s in the pool and will turn them off for awhile.

I pulled Akagi-1 with its eighteen Zeros off and replaced them with Genzan KuS-1 with twenty-seven Zeros. Akagi is sitting at Takao for now.

I am now producing forty Ki-45KAIa Nicks per month and have one Sentai with nineteen out of thirty-six planes. It will go to Magwe when filled-out.

I pulled the Kates off of CVEs Taiyo and Unyo and filled both of them out with Zeros. They are both going to Koepang for harassment cover.

[el lobo]

PRODUCTION -- May 17, 1942

Good news and bad news.

PA finally took a big gulp of oil, so it is pulling. The bad news is that it is not pulling from Singapore. Singapore is definitely a sink. There is no oil going into the port but the points are still increasing.

My tankers from Pbang will now start going to Saigon. Once I convert a few Std-Cs to tankers I will set-up some CS convoys from Singapore to Saigon.

It is interesting to note that when I turned the refineries at Magwe back-on (5/15/42), it immediately sucked its oil back from Rangoon.

I took Lanchow on the fifteenth so PA should start pulling from there soon.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: el lobo

The discussion in the War Room concerning Brave Sir Robin is interesting. This game should be the definitive game for the action of which they are talking. Rio is doing the BSR on steroids and I am doing the limited expansion. The results of such strategies will be seen in a couple of years but one part of the discussion has been proven true, it makes for a very boring AAR, at least on my end. Rio is much more verbose than I am and it looks like his AAR is rolling along.

The game its self is far from boring for me personally. I could easily spend two or three more hours a day on the game and still want more time. I ask Rio if it is boring on his end and he said not at all. There is simply so much to do

Having experienced something similar in my first PBEM as Japan I can comment on yours. I didn't face a full blown BSR, but by limiting myself to essentially a historic perimeter it did make for an extremely boring 1942 and AAR. At least in my opinion, but I was surprised at the number of people that enjoyed it and had learned from it before it ended prematurely. I digress though.

I ranted and railed against the Allied player not coming out to fight and felt I was being robbed of the "fun times" as Japan. With more experience under my belt and comments from more experienced players I learned that if I wanted the Allied player to fight, I had to venture out and find his line in the sand and make him. So I thought up all kinds of things to do in late 42 and early 43 to try and bring the Allies to battle, but ended up doing none of them. I had set myself up to play a historic perimeter, and prepare for the late war and I stuck to it. The plan was a few fortress type locations to anchor the defence and use the tactic of counter invasions to hold and delay the Allied advance. The game ended in the first quarter of 1943 and it was a long slog to get there, but like you I enjoyed tinkering with production and watching those resource numbers increase. The highlight of a turn for me was watching a huge tanker TF unload at Japan suffering no loss. Ah, those were exciting times [:D].

What I want to say is in light of your strategy an extreme BSR is perfect for you and setting up a historic perimeter. The supply and HI you can accumulate by not fighting beyond your perimeter is staggering. If your opponent does not attack in 1942 you will be able to bank the means to conduct an aggressive defence in the mid-late war period. Can it be boring, you bet, but that is the price to follow this kind of strategy coupled with less aggressive Allied play. Get the enjoyment from running your war effort even if the focus for some time is your economy and defence planning, there's nothing wrong with that, and it sounds like you are already having fun. No one said you had to smash and destroy everything to enjoy playing Japan and as long as you enjoy the slow pace, I think you'll have loads of fun defending when your opponent does move later in the year or early 43.

[PaxMondo]

Its May '42 ... where are you delivering all the DEI oil? You should have several 1000's every few days to deliver at this point, but only 2 small offloads to Saigon are notated above ... [&:][&:][&:]

[Lowpe]

I think it is a mistake getting the highway to try and flow from Singers in a pbem game. You don't need it, especially if you are getting flow from Saigon and Cam Ranh Bay east.

Your strategy is probably the best one for Japan, but so many JFBs want to run wild that it isn't tried by many.

Things to really look at now. Basic production: What does your engine production look like? AFVs and HI too.

How soon will you get the Tojo IIc, George, Jack and Frank A. Critical for blunting Allied attacks in mid 43. The A6M5 acceleration looks good, but you will need more and better planes early especially good Army fighters (and three times more of them than navy) come 1st quarter 44.

Another plane to look at is the despised Lilly IIb, however they are great flexible Army anti ship divebombers that can start fighting in late 42. Much more effective than Helens or other Army bombers trained at naval bombing, IMHO.

I like what you are doing with the Nick...get your best pilots in them and start sweeping now. Don't cede the air war....keep attacking.

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Having experienced something similar in my first PBEM as Japan I can comment on yours. I didn't face a full blown BSR, but by limiting myself to essentially a historic perimeter it did make for an extremely boring 1942 and AAR. At least in my opinion, but I was surprised at the number of people that enjoyed it and had learned from it before it ended prematurely. I digress though.

I ranted and railed against the Allied player not coming out to fight and felt I was being robbed of the "fun times" as Japan. With more experience under my belt and comments from more experienced players I learned that if I wanted the Allied player to fight, I had to venture out and find his line in the sand and make him. So I thought up all kinds of things to do in late 42 and early 43 to try and bring the Allies to battle, but ended up doing none of them. I had set myself up to play a historic perimeter, and prepare for the late war and I stuck to it. The plan was a few fortress type locations to anchor the defence and use the tactic of counter invasions to hold and delay the Allied advance. The game ended in the first quarter of 1943 and it was a long slog to get there, but like you I enjoyed tinkering with production and watching those resource numbers increase. The highlight of a turn for me was watching a huge tanker TF unload at Japan suffering no loss. Ah, those were exciting times [:D].

What I want to say is in light of your strategy an extreme BSR is perfect for you and setting up a historic perimeter. The supply and HI you can accumulate by not fighting beyond your perimeter is staggering. If your opponent does not attack in 1942 you will be able to bank the means to conduct an aggressive defence in the mid-late war period. Can it be boring, you bet, but that is the price to follow this kind of strategy coupled with less aggressive Allied play. Get the enjoyment from running your war effort even if the focus for some time is your economy and defence planning, there's nothing wrong with that, and it sounds like you are already having fun. No one said you had to smash and destroy everything to enjoy playing Japan and as long as you enjoy the slow pace, I think you'll have loads of fun defending when your opponent does move later in the year or early 43.

Thanks for stopping by SqzMyLemon.

And thanks for affirming my thoughts and feelings about my basic strategy.

I too am suffering from “must attack” and like you did, I am showing restraint. The more I read, the more I am convinced of the futility of invading Oz or India or chasing the Allies. My exception is China which is mitigating the “MA” craving. (I am going to take Pax's advise and attack in India and GA 's suggestion on setting up on Ceylon but I don't consider them invasions. More on this later.)

I would like my game to go similar to your comments. It sounds like a good plan. I hope I can make it to '43 without Rio counter invading. After that I think I can make him say, “Damn this is harder than I thought it would be.” That will be (more) fun.

Too bad your game ended early. It definitely would have been a good read for me. Is the AAR still available?

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Its May '42 ... where are you delivering all the DEI oil? You should have several 1000's every few days to deliver at this point, but only 2 small offloads to Saigon are notated above ... [&:][&:][&:]

Hi Pax,

First part, I know not efficient, but about four weeks ago I sent about six tankers directly to the H.I. from Balikpapan. I did not want to dump it anywhere on the Highway for statistical reasons.

Second part, please excuse me for such a screw-up on the above report. I left off HK which was really stupid since I think it had such a big part in PA's pull. As you can see, I unloaded three or four tankers from Balikpapan there on 5 May. Future oil and resources will go there also.

I also have three tankers shuttling from Miri to Singers. I don't know how much they may have dumped there in the tracking period.

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I think it is a mistake getting the highway to try and flow from Singers in a pbem game. You don't need it, especially if you are getting flow from Saigon and Cam Ranh Bay east.

Your strategy is probably the best one for Japan, but so many JFBs want to run wild that it isn't tried by many.

Things to really look at now. Basic production: What does your engine production look like? AFVs and HI too.

How soon will you get the Tojo IIc, George, Jack and Frank A. Critical for blunting Allied attacks in mid 43. The A6M5 acceleration looks good, but you will need more and better planes early especially good Army fighters (and three times more of them than navy) come 1st quarter 44.

Another plane to look at is the despised Lilly IIb, however they are great flexible Army anti ship divebombers that can start fighting in late 42. Much more effective than Helens or other Army bombers trained at naval bombing, IMHO.

I like what you are doing with the Nick...get your best pilots in them and start sweeping now. Don't cede the air war....keep attacking.

Lowpe, pertinent comments and suggestions.

Please let me get back to you on this as I am out of time right now. I have some questions of my own.

Thanks

[PaxMondo]

Agree with Lowpe.

Drop your oil at Saigon/CRB if it is working and appears that it is. You can also drop fuel and resources there that are destined for the HI and save all that transport.

If you are not sure about CRB/Saigon yet, then drop at Haiphong. Yes, I know that Haiphong and HK are about the same sailing distance, difference though is that Haiphong is on the CRB route and will help get that going. Dropping at CRB will save a lot of fuel/sailing time as compared to HK.

Keep pulling from Fusan steady ... and you must keep dropping in you chosen drop port NOT take to HI. It can't pull anything to Fusan if you don't 'feed' it. [;)] Gotta be a supply to pull from for the AI to work.