Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome

[Dinglir]

ORIGINAL: chaos45
Its really not crazy if you look at the game situation-the German summer offensive was a failure and captured nor isolated any major soviet cities. Basically took much less ground than historical which also resulted in fewer soviet encirclement losses. All those extra soviet manpower points not take added up to a ton of extra manpower in 1941...all those little dot towns of manpower add up when your at 100:1 for manpower adds in 41.

I disagree with that one - the Axis advances are actually more or less historical in this game.

From north to south:

1) In front of Leningrad, I have taken less terrain than the Axis did historically
2) Between Moscow and Leningrad, the Soviets had advanced (from the north) to just east of Velikie Luki.
3) Southwest of Moscow, the Soviet winter attacks had reached the terrain no more than four or five hexes east of Smolensk.
4) Orel, Kursk and Kharkov were barely in Axis hands at this stage of the war, much like in this game.
5) North of the Sea of Azov, the Axis lines followed the Mius river, exactly as they do right now.

You may well argue of whether this is more or less than the historical gains by the Axis, but claiming that it is "much less ground than historical" is, in my humble opinion, wrong.

ORIGINAL: chaos45
Not to be a downer but the German player should just throw in the towel, as this game should lead to a soviet win 43-44.

I will not be doing that.

I certainly do not share your feeling of utter gloom over the Axis, and I will be surprised if the Soviets manage a win in 43 or early 44. I have no experience with the late war, so I abstain from having opinions of late 44 or 45. But for now, I am actually still playing to win.

But even if I fail to do that, there are also the Decisive, the Major and the Minor objectives to play for. For now, I am enjoying the game and learning a lot, so I am planning to continue.

I have obviously given HardLuck the same option that he has given me: If he loses interest in the game, he should simply say so, and the game will then end.

[SparkleyTits]

I am with Dinglr on this one

I feel guards are great for sure but aren't decisive so early on in the war they will best used to draw Axis forces and reserves come 42 which will just means Dinglir has less meat on his offensives to work with
Annoying for sure but Dinglir is a competent enough player to plan and prepare for it I imagine meaning ultimately the ball can still be in his court to mess up or shine come 42 it only means it will be more difficult which again is nothing decisive at all

I also think Dinglirs winter was a rather controlled one and that would likley not of been the case if this game was done as mentioned

[Dinglir]

Turn thirtytwo.

[SparkleyTits]

Nice move in the centre

I look forward to seeing how the south develops

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

I am with Dinglr on this one

I feel guards are great for sure but aren't decisive so early on in the war they will best used to draw Axis forces and reserves come 42 which will just means Dinglir has less meat on his offensives to work with
Annoying for sure but Dinglir is a competent enough player to plan and prepare for it I imagine meaning ultimately the ball can still be in his court to mess up or shine come 42 it only means it will be more difficult which again is nothing decisive at all

I also think Dinglirs winter was a rather controlled one and that would likley not of been the case if this game was done as mentioned

You are reading Dinglir side of things on the Winter Offense. Very nice write up by the way but what was failed to mention, or I just missed it, was my offense in the Center & South started with extremely long supply lines. It was my intent to gain ground here for a nice cushion come summer. The rest of the offense was just to cause casualties, that is it. I decided to break off attacks in January not because of the stiff defense, but to build up. (Not to mention we are playing random weather and you really don't want to be caught with your pants down as a Soviet player. So preparations began. Was it the right thing to do (shrug).

I was lucky enough to get two (2) Infantry Divisions and an Infantry Regiment(was total 7 German inf regiments) to surrender. Now remember in this area he had the Infantry divisions broken down to cover ground (along with the added benefit of regiments causing ridiculous casualties) so herding these little bad boys are a pain in the azz on extended supply lines.

All in all Dinglir imo did a very good job for the Winter. I believe we both made our objectives now lets see what the summer brings.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

I am with Dinglr on this one

I feel guards are great for sure but aren't decisive so early on in the war they will best used to draw Axis forces and reserves come 42 which will just means Dinglir has less meat on his offensives to work with
Annoying for sure but Dinglir is a competent enough player to plan and prepare for it I imagine meaning ultimately the ball can still be in his court to mess up or shine come 42 it only means it will be more difficult which again is nothing decisive at all

I also think Dinglirs winter was a rather controlled one and that would likley not of been the case if this game was done as mentioned

You are reading Dinglir side of things on the Winter Offense. Very nice write up by the way but what was failed to mention, or I just missed it, was my offense in the Center & South started with extremely long supply lines. It was my intent to gain ground here for a nice cushion come summer. The rest of the offense was just to cause casualties, that is it. I decided to break off attacks in January not because of the stiff defense, but to build up. (Not to mention we are playing random weather and you really don't want to be caught with your pants down as a Soviet player. So preparations began. Was it the right thing to do (shrug).

I was lucky enough to get two (2) Infantry Divisions and an Infantry Regiment(was total 7 German inf regiments) to surrender. Now remember in this area he had the Infantry divisions broken down to cover ground (along with the added benefit of regiments causing ridiculous casualties) so herding these little bad boys are a pain in the azz on extended supply lines.

All in all Dinglir imo did a very good job for the Winter. I believe we both made our objectives now lets see what the summer brings.

One part of the offensive began on the Don South East of Voronezh and gained 19 hexes to the Oskel/Torels river. My men had to resort to eating yellow snow on that long supply run.

[SparkleyTits]

My theorem which could be completely wrong of course is that 42 is going to be the year to watch for both of you [:D]

Looking forward to it!

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

My theorem which could be completely wrong of course is that 42 is going to be the year to watch for both of you [:D]

Looking forward to it!

You Sir are correct on your theorem

[Dinglir]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
.... what was failed to mention, or I just missed it, was my offense in the Center & South started with extremely long supply lines.

It is true that the Soviet attacks has been made with long(ish) supply lines. I deliberately spent the latter part of the 41 attacks trying to limit the available railheads between Voronezh and Rostov, in order to force those long supply lines upon you. I did this so that I could put up a weak screen of infantry regiments that would fall back in front of heavy Soviet attacks.

That being said, I was surprised at how much weight you could put into your attack, and you managed to advance quite a lot longer than I had anticipated. A takeaway for me was the amount of movement in those Tank Brigades - even with supply distances around 30MP or more. That surprised me. But at least I was right in the fact that your infantry divisions would not be powerful for long that far from your rail heads.

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
I was lucky enough to get two (2) Infantry Divisions and an Infantry Regiment(was total 7 German inf regiments) to surrender. Now remember in this area he had the Infantry divisions broken down to cover ground (along with the added benefit of regiments causing ridiculous casualties) so herding these little bad boys are a pain in the azz on extended supply lines.

In my limited experience the first two weeks of the blizzard are the most dangerous. During those turns, the Soviets are well supplied and have little fatigue. that translates into some heavy movement points to use in advances. Another takeaway for me was the need to be more careful when planning the initial winter defenses.

I would like to hear from the community what kind of German divisional losses are considered acceptable during the first winter. All in all, I am quite content with only losing 2,33 divisions considering this is my first real challenge when playing the Germans.

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
All in all Dinglir imo did a very good job for the Winter. I believe we both made our objectives now lets see what the summer brings.

"Unfortunately", I think you also did quite well. I suspect I will se more of those Guards over the summer months.

[Dinglir]

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits
Nice move in the centre

I have tried to do those detailed battle reports for a while, hoping to spark a debate on the tactics of the game.

How do other people plan and execute an attack on a defended line? How do they prepare? How do they allocate their air resources to the attack? What factors do they use to decide how many CV must be used in every single combat? The list of questions is endless.

We all get to see those nice little screenshots at the beginning or the end of the turn in all the AAR's. But what were the decisions that made that situation come about? That (to me) is the important question.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
.... what was failed to mention, or I just missed it, was my offense in the Center & South started with extremely long supply lines.

It is true that the Soviet attacks has been made with long(ish) supply lines. I deliberately spent the latter part of the 41 attacks trying to limit the available railheads between Voronezh and Rostov, in order to force those long supply lines upon you. I did this so that I could put up a weak screen of infantry regiments that would fall back in front of heavy Soviet attacks.

That being said, I was surprised at how much weight you could put into your attack, and you managed to advance quite a lot longer than I had anticipated. A takeaway for me was the amount of movement in those Tank Brigades - even with supply distances around 30MP or more. That surprised me. But at least I was right in the fact that your infantry divisions would not be powerful for long that far from your rail heads.

The tank brigades are heavy pipe hitters if you nurture them from the 1st turn of the game. See the ones under Tolbukin were Tank divisions that converted over to tank brigades and had high experience and morale. All of those saved tank division have two purposes, save the trucks & experienced tank brigades come winter .

[EwaldvonKleist]

@Dinglir: 30MPs distance to railhead gives still full supplies.

[TheFox]

Hi

I thought supply was limited to 20MP and 10 Hexes for full supply to a railhead, otherwise it was reduced cumulative on each of the two conditions?

I haven’t read the recent patches and it had been reduced from 25MP in the past!

It would be useful to know the definitive distances if poss.

[ledo]

I think the 20MP is for HQs not individual units. But I'm unsure. Ewald has a breakdown of all the supply calculations somewhere. Check the war room stickied posts if you're interested.

[EwaldvonKleist]

@TheFox
if you are interested in the details, have a look at this page, item 1.5. The document linked there explains the supply system in detail.
To make it short, when the unit is in range of its HQ, the position of the HQ (not the unit ones) is taken for the calculation of all supply multipliers. This means that by use of an HQ, the unit comes up to 5 hexagons (the maximum range unit-HQ) closer to the supply source, usually a railhead, compared to the situation without a HQ.

[tyronec]

if you are interested in the details, have a look at this page, item 1.5. The document linked there explains the supply system in detail.

Well worth looking at.
Think it is from before the latest patch ?

[EwaldvonKleist]

Yes, the document is from 1.10.00/1.11.00. I had no time/motivation to update it so far.
Its all still up to date except that the minimal possible rail modifier has been reduced to 10% from 25% and the axis rail modifier used in the formula has been reduced by 10 until march 1942 IIRC.
(and the HQ BU cost has been increased, but the formulas for this calculation are not treated in the document)

[TheFox]

@EvK

Impressive and worthy of applause [&o]

Thank you

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

@Dinglir: 30MPs distance to railhead gives still full supplies.

I guess this comes from HQ distance & unit distance combined? HQ gets maximum supply when it's 10MP from railhead (20MP the MP supply multiplier is still 100%, but within 10MP of the railhead it can get extra supplies), and the unit needs to be 20MP from the HQ.

If there's shortage of vehicles in the motor pool, you'll get (5*(10MP-distance to supply source)% less penalty from vehicle shortages, that's really a big factor if you're in bad motor pool situation. For example, if you have 100k/200k vehicles available, you'd get 50% supply reduction. Being in the same hex (0MP) with the HQ would however completely mitigate this effect. Anything over 9MP and you'd get the full 50% penalty.

Unit's that have moved will also get a penalty to their received supplies maximum amount, and that's dependant on the distance to the supply source (HQ or railhead). Exact formula is (95-distance to supply source). So the closer they are to HQ, the more supplies they can get.


It's not all that simple

[Dinglir]

I guess I have to look at my MP calculations again.....