The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS

[adarbrauner]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

The 4EB program is a pure and simple fantasy. Have no issue admitting that whatsoever.

I'd say far from pure and simple fantasy!

Much less than than the Shinden and the jet planes , accepted in stock and by the community!

Again about the G5M, maybe a reduction of its bomb load in the underpowered version should be warranted? From 12 x 250 kg to some less?

[John 3rd]

We could certainly do that. Reflecting issues what about reducing from 12 down to 8? Perhaps some other downgrades as well. Will think on it some...

[John 3rd]

Expected to see a bunch of Posts here after I got off of work today.

Ran my August 21, 1942 turns and it appears that Sean and I read each other's minds. I decided on a maximum effort against Asanol while he decided on a maximum effort against Calcutta. It did not go too well for Dai Nippon. ATA was pretty fair but he knocked my massed CAP down just in time for 38 B-17s to come in at 5,000 Ft. OUCH!

We're headed out for Christmas Light looking and I'll do a serious update at that point.

[John 3rd]

August 22, 1942
India

After the wild and crazy aerial combat yesterday, the Japanese guess correctly that Calcutta will not be the target two days in a row. Howrah is targeted this day and the Fighter Sweeps are not enough to knock down the Japanese CAP and LRCAP. Three raids of 20, 6, and 8 B-17 come in at 5,000Ft and they are met by 38 Zero and Tojo. FAR better results come this turn as five are shot down and nearly all appear to be damaged. Howrah takes barely a scratch.

Much better...

[John 3rd]

August 21, 1942
India

As noted above, Sean and I get the same idea at the same time. I decided to attack Asanol and he decides to attack Calcutta.

For those talking about the lopsidedness of this Mod, let me run some rather interesting numbers:

Battle Over Asanol
Morning Sweeps
33 Tojo vs 150 Allied Fighters (Mainly British Hurricanes and American P-40s)
16 Tojo vs
37 Tojo vs

Afternoon Attacks
12 Tojo vs 96 Fighters
30 Zero and 45 Betty/Nell vs
24 Zero and 6 Liz vs
11 Tojo and 6 B vs
6 Tojo and 15 B vs
11 B vs

The AF takes nearly 30 Runway hits with damage being pretty negligible and bomber losses high for the afternoon.



Battle Over Calcutta
137 Fighters on CAP vs 20 P-40
vs 13 F4F
vs 13 F4F
vs 13 F4F
vs 16 Martlet
vs 19 P-39
vs 25 P-38
vs 6 F4F
vs 5 Fighters
11 Fighters vs 16 Blenheims
5 F vs 11 Blenheims
0 vs 38 B-17
0 vs 26 P-38
0 vs 18 P-40

Nearly 75 bombers are destroyed on the ground and the Runway jumps to 38% with Service going to 58%

YEEEEEE--OUCH!

The whole cost vs use discussion we're having with Japanese 4EB is put to a serious lest as I lose 40 Liz on the ground. The only GOOD way to look at that is those crews lost their planes ON THE GROUND so I did nose the CREWS in the air! Isn't much of a silver lining but it is better then nothing.


This was a perfectly executed attack upon a heavily defended AF. Wish I could do the same. Well done to Sean!

My comment at the start of the Post is important due to how the Mod has fixed Allied Aircraft replacements and allows access to more airframes in a crisis (the off-map purchase system). In these two areas of fighting, the Allies used 324 Fighters total. There are plenty more elsewhere in India.

[John 3rd]

August 21, 1942
India

Much better results on the following turn where Japanese Fighters came up in altitude and did a fair job.

Sean and I are not playing with House Rules. He is not paying attention to maneuver bands with Fighters and loves his bombers at 5,000 t. OK. I raise my Fighter Altitude some: Tojo from 20 K to 25 K, Zero M3 from 15K to 20K, and M2 leave M2 at 15K.

[Canoerebel]

Players (especially those with a record of being "AFBs") inquiring about your mod may sometimes be rude or contemptuous in a hurtful way, but most of the time I think they're genuinely interested. That was the case a few days ago, when I posted about the seeming abundance of new (to me) combat ship and carrier names.

Almost universally, players agree that the Japanese player must have considerable "bumps" in their OOB (and other things, like industry and research) in order to make the game interesting enough to play into the late years. It is in all our interest to keep the Japanese players engaged and enjoying the game.

In recent years, we've seen that experienced Japanese players can play deeply into the game and that, sometimes, they rip apart the Allies to the point that the game may be (not is, "may be") swinging too far. Maybe. Maybe not.

The introduction of 4EB into the Japanese OOB diminishes one of the few advantages an Allied player has, at least early in the game. The Allied air force typically fights at a disadvantage and with real issues with fighter and bomber pools (the PP system to by more planes may counter that; I don't know yet). A Japanese player with a serious pool of long-range 4EB that can hit industry in India or Oz or USA could be an real issue. The damage would be felt and the Allied player would have to stretch his resources further to defend bases deeper. That could be a balance issue...or not. It's worth discussing without player on either side getting hysterical or calling names or simply defaulting to "every the opposition does is wrong/stupid/silly." (You're not doing that, but some folks do.)

The early game has become increasinly favorable to the Japanese, with some exceptions (notably Obvert's vs. Lowpe). It's probably the late game in which Japan might need a boost; not the early game, when Japan is frequently running over the Allies all over the place. That would be my concern, but I don't have enough date to state anything with specificity or finality.

Behind all of this is my own notion that too many players avoid the Victory Points system. Therefore, they have their own measure of the game. If Japan is dying as it did in the real war, they're "losing." If Japan is doing better, "they're winning." As the game ages into 1944, they start losing stuff like crazy. It's awful. They feel awful. They feel like they're losing. The game is no fun.

But the Victory Point system, as managed by players like Lowpe, Obvert, Lokasenna, and many others, reveals a much different picture. In my game with Obvert, the Allies have been on the offensive for a long time, dealing out alot of punishment (and taking some). Poor Erik....has a 7,000 point lead as we approach April 1945. The "war" says that Japan is losing. The game says Japan isn't losing. It gives Obvert a reason for, and a method of, fighting effectively late.

Yet, alot of Japanese players dismiss the points system for reasons beyond my comprehension. Their contemptuous of it, even. As though playing the game as it was designed to be played is flawed.

If Japanese players (and probably most Allied players too) played the game the way it was designed, more games would go into 1945 and there would be less of a need to unbalance historic OOBs and to overrun China etc.

The game works. It's we players who don't.

[adarbrauner]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
not the early game, when Japan is frequently running over the Allies all over the place.

I play allied too, and you cannot imagine how fragile Japan could be just from the start and the more the weeks keep on, as fully exposed in the Obvert vs Lowpe recent game, where a superlative Allied (and Japanese) player, who knows Japan thoroughly and deep, has put at the verge of collapse an experienced Japan; it could happen all the time; it's a thin line;

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
A Japanese player with a serious pool of long-range 4EB that can hit industry in India or Oz or USA

Oh yeah I'd ike the option to intruduce th 6 ENG Amerika bomber, sometimes in 1945 or late 1944...

Matrix, anything anytime...?

[Canoerebel]

I'm pretty sure you'd enjoy Japan acquiring nuclear weaponry in 1948 and forming a coalition with India in 1950 to declare war on Russia, since by then China, Britain and the USA would have surrendered.

[adarbrauner]

These were for real;

Ladies and gentlemen, we present the Rita;

Tremble America tremble...



Ps. no heavy bomber can change anything in the balance because they are prohibitive for Japan to produce and keep operatonal in the required numbers, besides they come into operatonal life, in realistic terms, too late in the war;

[Canoerebel]

Anything added or subtracted or tweaked in the game can affect balance. I'm not saying that it does, but it certainly can. After nine years, the game has reached a stasis (balance) that can be tipped unknowingly or accidentally or with the addition of a feather to one side or the other. That doesn't always happen but it's the kind of thing that must be considered.

[Canoerebel]

Someday I'd like to hear from Erik and Jeff about what allowed the Allies to turn the tables so early. There's no doubt that the accidental invasion of Russia was a major factor. If, in the end analysis, that was really the deciding factor, then it doesn't indicate an issue with balance early. But if there were other factors - if Erik's play or Jeff's play revealed weaknesses in the game that could be replicated so that there were balance issues, we'd need to address them. We don't have enough information to know, yet.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm pretty sure you'd enjoy Japan acquiring nuclear weaponry in 1948 and forming a coalition with India in 1950 to declare war on Russia

That's just silly talk. Why would the Japanese need to form a coalition with territory that they conquered in 1946? [;)]

[John 3rd]

August 23, 1942
India

PERHAPS the worm begins to turn this day. The three day air battle over Howrah and Calcutta crescendos with massed strikes on both targets. THIS DAY the Japanese losses look good.

The man's B-17s truly take it on the chin as 7 B-17 fight 45 Fighters and then 8 B-17 fight their way through 38 Fighters.

At Calcutta a convoy finishes unloading three more AA units--raising the total to EIGHT--as well as three more Heavy Artillery units from Manchuria. Those AA guns go into immediate work.

Will he come again tomorrow? I bet YES.

Looking forward to that, a conversation this morning with Minister Benoit reminds me of the tacics I used to fight Mr. Roper in Japan. After going up, the Fighter Altitudes come way down. We will engage the enemy is low level dog fighting. Tojo: 9,000, M3 7,000, and M2 5,000. We'll see if that change in tactics helps even more...

[John 3rd]

Really appreciate the thoughts Dan. Keep up the commentary Gents...

[John 3rd]

Michael and I were talking about the comments on the LIZ and I think we shall go back and do a revamp. Will Post when I get a chance.

Sean and I are turning and burning just Dan and I would occasionally do. Remember that MISTER ROPER??!! [:D]

[adarbrauner]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm pretty sure you'd enjoy Japan acquiring nuclear weaponry in 1948 and forming a coalition with India in 1950 to declare war on Russia, since by then China, Britain and the USA would have surrendered.

Yes but the game take place in a more restricted time frame;

https://www.quora.com/Were-the-Amerika- ... od-of-WWII

If you may read this very interesting and revealing article, it would results that in any realistic way any axis faction could have brought a strategic bombing campaign over the national territory of USA;

the atomic bomb was quite far from Japan and in any lenght not as it was at hand for the USA;


the game in its "stock" format is a very close representation of Japan's situation throughout the war as it developed itself in reality; this means that it offers a relatively limited range of options to Japan, and even if those were available to her at least from a technical point of view;

but


if, because of different strategical and operational choices, Japan would have been put in more comfortable industrial and logistical position (and given a better leadership and choices), so then we may well could see a different naval OOB, and different composition of air units;

the purpose of these mods is to provide the player with a wider range of options (at last with regards to Japan), other wise precluded by the closed structure of the game;

if the Japanese side had been able to reach a looser industrial position, IF THE ALLIED PLAYER FAILED - for any reason - to damage or reduce Japan's industrial expansion, so then you should rightfully be liable to be confronted with a wider range of options and parafernalia, to include yes some strat bombers (never that much) and others;


just shift and adjust your strategy from working on the periphery, to obtain a loose boombing and invading stage closer to mainland Japan, to casting a wedge into the essential and urreplaceble resource cord from SRA to Japan, and you'll see no 4 eng bomber nor advanced destroyersor or similia in any meaningful quantity even if the option is given to the player;

[John 3rd]

August 24, 1942
India

My opponent BLINKS! With the exception of a Squadron of SBDs that get wiped out, India is delightfully calm this turn.

The SBDs bring up the point that there are all sorts of Marines operating within the Air Campaign presently. There are at least 3-4 Wildcat and 3 SBD Squadrons in theatre. This is GREAT! Keeps them out of the Pacific...



This screenshot shows him trying to interdict my RR again. He'll have a mean surprise when he finds out that there is an ID and two TK Reg in Cuttack. Will let him cut and then I shall CRUSH his unit.

[John 3rd]

Just back from Bumblebee. Give it a pleasant, non-Michael Bey, thumbs up.


August 25, 1942
Australia

The war does go on elsewhere!

Here we have a small Allied Raid hit Exmouth. The 4 Hudson and 2 B-17 encounter a very tough set of seven ZEROs who shoot down the Hudsons and hit both B-17s. NICE!


The screenshot shows the Pt Hedlund Invasion Force of a 100% prepped ID filled with 3 BBs, CLs, and 8-10 DDs. The Aussie Brigade and Cav unit based there have been getting hit for weeks by daily Japanese bombing raids. No more supply so this might be fun to watch. The 'x' are Japanese controlled hexes so the Aussies can only retreat in the WRONG direction when we take the base.

[modrow]

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
not the early game, when Japan is frequently running over the Allies all over the place.

I play allied too, and you cannot imagine how fragile Japan could be just from the start and the more the weeks keep on, as fully exposed in the Obvert vs Lowpe recent game, where a superlative Allied (and Japanese) player, who knows Japan thoroughly and deep, has put at the verge of collapse an experienced Japan; it could happen all the time; it's a thin line;

I don't think that game is a valid reference because there was an unintended activation of Russia.

Hartwig