The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

[obvert]

Here is the butchers bill. At least I have deep Judy and Grace pools. The Sams will take some team to replace.

[obvert]

The points shift a bit more toward the inevitable end. There are still a lot of battles to go though, and the land war is next. Where will the DS end up here?

[Lowpe]

Reorganize the KB, send ships short back to port, but send the rest and hit the shipping near Okinawa. Dollars to donuts he diverts AKEs there now thinking the threat from the KB is gone.

Tough, tough luck hitting a 2000 plane cap so fragmented and in the afternoon with severed storms to boot.[:(]

Ningpo is my first guess now, but is he bold enough to go upriver. Quite frankly that would be a little cheesy given how the game mechanic works.

This jig to Ningpo/Shanghai took me totally by surprise! I can never predict any invasion beach.

[mind_messing]

If it is in fact China he is going for, I think he's going to struggle to get the needed VPs. It's just a slow theatre, even for Allied tank units zipping around.

I know i've banged on and on about it before, but now is the time to get the little interdicting ships in amongst his fleet. Your air assets are in position, time to sow discord and throw sand in the cogs. His mailed fist is well and truely in the maw now - time to bite it off.

Record daily air losses for me is something like 2.1k. You've a bit to go to beat that yet.

I see you're min-maxing on altitudes, which is great. You'll get a lucky break, you just need to persevere.

[Lowpe]

2.1k losses in a day...ouch. Assuming 35-40K for the entire game, that is a bad day. Or good, if it did a lot of damage, but somehow I don't think it did.

Lets hope Obvert sees thru his disappointment, and slogs thru the turn reorganizing all those squadrons, and still wants to deliver some damage to that Juggernaut. But I am not sure with what...

[adarbrauner]

Why not to hit at Kushiro and the North meanwhile

[GetAssista]

Were there any examples of massed air strike against healthy DS that netted positive vps?

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Were there any examples of massed air strike against healthy DS that netted positive vps?

Obvert has done the best that I know of but was it positive vp? Can't remember in this game.

In his game versus Jocke, he savaged a CVE's fleet but the amphib landing at Moppo happened. Pretty sure that one was positive VP.

Back before, when the massive air bug existed & coordination was easier, Radar sank all of Greyjoy's carriers.

Every JFB dreads the turn Obvert has to do now, with all those air groups...its like work.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Every JFB dreads the turn Obvert has to do now, with all those air groups...its like work.

It's downright scary. [X(]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Reorganize the KB, send ships short back to port, but send the rest and hit the shipping near Okinawa. Dollars to donuts he diverts AKEs there now thinking the threat from the KB is gone.

Tough, tough luck hitting a 2000 plane cap so fragmented and in the afternoon with severed storms to boot.[:(]

Ningpo is my first guess now, but is he bold enough to go upriver. Quite frankly that would be a little cheesy given how the game mechanic works.

This jig to Ningpo/Shanghai took me totally by surprise! I can never predict any invasion beach.

I opted to keep KB out of port, as it's completely intact, and refilled fighter groups. I've moved it next to more LR CAP as well. I want to keep it as a threat, but hoefully out of danger.

I have a feeling Ningpo could be one stop, but maybe not the final stop. It's so open farther North, and he doesn't know what I can rail in toward Singers to support. I'd guess some on both sides, some in Korea/Manchuria and some in Northern China. We'll see.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

If it is in fact China he is going for, I think he's going to struggle to get the needed VPs. It's just a slow theatre, even for Allied tank units zipping around.

I know i've banged on and on about it before, but now is the time to get the little interdicting ships in amongst his fleet. Your air assets are in position, time to sow discord and throw sand in the cogs. His mailed fist is well and truely in the maw now - time to bite it off.

Record daily air losses for me is something like 2.1k. You've a bit to go to beat that yet.

I see you're min-maxing on altitudes, which is great. You'll get a lucky break, you just need to persevere.

I was in position to get ships in his way the next day, but I can't risk another try immediately after. The IJN is only really three surface TFs. now. The rest would have to be merchies and escorts, and to get them in range I need a day to move close. That's the rub.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

Why not to hit at Kushiro and the North meanwhile

There is nothing to hit except 75k Allied troops in x3 terrain with probably 6-7 forts by now. They ship has sailed.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Jack does well as a point defense interceptor, and has different characteristics in countering enemy sweeps. ...
It is better than George for some defensive tasks, whereas the George is better for offensive -- generally speaking.

+1

IIRC correctly it has better climb rate.

[PaxMondo]

To crack a 2000 plane CAP, you need 4000 fighters escorting ~200 bombers. 4000 fighters => ~110 groups … IJN doesn't have that many, maybe half.


As Eric observed, looks like a fighter heavy DS just to kill his airforce. Until he is in LBA range, there is no air attack that can succeed. Even with LBA, 4000 fighters (1st line, N1K1, A7M, Ki-84) not sure that many exist.

Think we need to look at other options. He has no, or very few bombers. MM suggests: lots of little fleets ... every PB, SC, E, PT, MTB, etc ... and mines ... Maybe?

He doesn't have bombers so naval bombardment is what he is counting on. What about having your SCTF's (whatever is left) ready to hit him AFTER the bombardment before he can replenish?

Don't know ... always tough choices at this point ...

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

To crack a 2000 plane CAP, you need 4000 fighters escorting ~200 bombers. 4000 fighters => ~110 groups … IJN doesn't have that many, maybe half.


As Eric observed, looks like a fighter heavy DS just to kill his airforce. Until he is in LBA range, there is no air attack that can succeed. Even with LBA, 4000 fighters (1st line, N1K1, A7M, Ki-84) not sure that many exist.

Think we need to look at other options. He has no, or very few bombers. MM suggests: lots of little fleets ... every PB, SC, E, PT, MTB, etc ... and mines ... Maybe?

He doesn't have bombers so naval bombardment is what he is counting on. What about having your SCTF's (whatever is left) ready to hit him AFTER the bombardment before he can replenish?

Don't know ... always tough choices at this point ...

This is a great idea and something I've tried to prepare for. He needs a replenishing port and home base at some point soon, and if I can force some combat things might go astray from the big packed mob.

It looks like he's going into the deep North China Sea up near Korea, possibly. That presents some opportunities, but again, this is most likely the entire USN in mid-45. That's like 20 DD TFs, 10 CA/CL TFs, 5 BB TFs, and zillions of DE as well as all of the transports and landing craft that will get in the way. Any move is to break something apart and send some back to a home base listed in the Kuriles. It won't be to win a battle, and thus has to be coordinated to get some VPs out of the mess that could ensue while not losing 1,000 VPs myself.

This turn I'm sending in the CAs to bombard Kume, just taken next to Okinawa, in order to retard any port growth and hit any unloading ships there as well. Secondarily, the CAs will base to Naha t lure any strikes turned on after the devastation last turn. He could try turing on what he has (probably 300 DB/TB on the DS) thinking I'll pull everything back. We'll see.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Jack does well as a point defense interceptor, and has different characteristics in countering enemy sweeps. ...
It is better than George for some defensive tasks, whereas the George is better for offensive -- generally speaking.

+1

IIRC correctly it has better climb rate.

There is also a difference in manoeuvre bands for the 5 version of each, and max altitude. Each is useful.

I find the Jack does come up in numbers quickly, and I use it at 7k in the low CAP. Georges go to 9k to dive, since the N1K5 has extra guns too. It is also a surprisingly good sweeper.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Every JFB dreads the turn Obvert has to do now, with all those air groups...its like work.

It's downright scary. [X(]

I didn't do all of it, and some groups aren't ready to take replacements this turn, so I will wait. Some will just upgrade or downgrade until more Same are available.

It's not as bad as it looks, actually. About 1/3 of the KB strike planes didn't fly, and about 80 escorts also stayed behind. Could have been a different day, but good commanders, highly aggressive group leadrs and rested groups still didn't produce the strike I'm used to getting.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
To crack a 2000 plane CAP, you need 4000 fighters escorting ~200 bombers. 4000 fighters => ~110 groups … IJN doesn't have that many, maybe half.

I'm thinking LBA is there mostly to wear down the DS CAP not to penetrate it. If luck and weather are on your side, many (and a mean many) smaller LBA strikes on different altitudes will sacrifice themselves for the DS CAP fuel and ammo expenditure. And then KB strike usually comes last in the sequence meeting considerably weaker CAP. So it is not only the number of planes that matters. You actually want to have less coordination for your LBA in a sense, more airfields, more dispersed airgroups.

Then of course weather closes down half the fields, commanders chicken out, and you fly into the disaster. But well, 45 is a continuous disaster anyway [:D]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
To crack a 2000 plane CAP, you need 4000 fighters escorting ~200 bombers. 4000 fighters => ~110 groups … IJN doesn't have that many, maybe half.

I'm thinking LBA is there mostly to wear down the DS CAP not to penetrate it. If luck and weather are on your side, many (and a mean many) smaller LBA strikes on different altitudes will sacrifice themselves for the DS CAP fuel and ammo expenditure. And then KB strike usually comes last in the sequence meeting considerably weaker CAP. So it is not only the number of planes that matters. You actually want to have less coordination for your LBA in a sense, more airfields, more dispersed airgroups.

Then of course weather closes down half the fields, commanders chicken out, and you fly into the disaster. But well, 45 is a continuous disaster anyway [:D]

This is essentially a description of the intent and the result of the last turn. About 400 LBA strike planes did not fly, and the KB was fragmented into two strikes. In addition no strikes targeted the closer out of position CV TF.

[adarbrauner]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

Why not to hit at Kushiro and the North meanwhile

There is nothing to hit except 75k Allied troops in x3 terrain with probably 6-7 forts by now. They ship has sailed.

Does it sound like a good training and firing ground for bombers crews and - possibly - for the big siege guns -provided you can sustain the ammunition ependiture ? Does he keep any air there?