Wild Sheep Chase - obvert (J) vs JocMeister (A)

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: obvert

I was surprised there have been no attempts to bomb the airfields from the plethora of bases now in range. Granted, it would be painful, but I'd sure rather lose 200 planes than 50 ships.

Something tells me I'll be the one paying for this observation. [:D]

Great stuff though. This was a boost to your late war morale for sure. I agree with GreyJoy, considering the situation it's a fantastic Japanese tactical victory. Can't comment on the war weariness or if heads would roll since this is a game and the RL consequences have no bearing. Well done though!

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Great battle Erik!

I know how it feels... LBA coordinates only 1 out of 10 times. The only real coordination comes from the KB

However, even if the allies managed to land where they wished, the losses inflicted are really unaffordable for the allies. At least in RL, they would have already fired the commander in chief and possibly seeked for an armistice... try to imagine how many US sailors are dead in these two days...20,000? possibly more...[X(]

The fact that the allies simply have too much at this stage to really stop them doesn't make this a smaller victory for Japan. This WaS a victory.

I've witnessed, under the official patch against Rader, that it's simply a suicide to get so close to the HI with the DS... no matter how many planes you have on CAP... the strikes will always get through.
As the others have said, Joc should have tried to close as much AFs as possible before trying that...

In the coordination thing, have you taken into account the weather (both at the starting bases and at the arriving hexes), the AS at the starting bases and the other factors?

Lately I've come to a point where I consider weather the most important factor in the coordination thing...

I've made several attempts to coordinate my LBA lately.... and the only thing that really matters (or at least that can be easily checked) is weather. If no clouds are present at the starting hexes and if the arrival hex has no storms, the chances to coordinate between multiple bases are much higher.

I've managed to coordinate the LBA (regarding ground targets btw) between 5 different bases into a single big strike... and did it twice in two days in a row!... but only because of weather I think (well, obviously also following all the other LoBaron's suggestions)

Thanks Nic!

There was heavy cloud over the CVE TF that most escorts went for without their strike planes. The main bases look to be light rain/light cloud.

Japan's ability, even as hampered as I am now, is so far out of the range of what they could do in real life I can see how the Allies in game can justify the losses. Still it feels good, it gives me a sense that I've done what I can this time, and now we've got a new front to fight.

I'll try to piece together a bit more of the groups and see what went where later. No time tonight.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: obvert

I was surprised there have been no attempts to bomb the airfields from the plethora of bases now in range. Granted, it would be painful, but I'd sure rather lose 200 planes than 50 ships.

Something tells me I'll be the one paying for this observation. [:D]

Great stuff though. This was a boost to your late war morale for sure. I agree with GreyJoy, considering the situation it's a fantastic Japanese tactical victory. Can't comment on the war weariness or if heads would roll since this is a game and the RL consequences have no bearing. Well done though!

It's odd because generally he plasters everything before moving forward. That is why I mention that maybe the timeline of the game has gotten into his psyche a bit too much. There is really no need to make this move as far as I can see.

I also just got news from Jocke that the one-sided strike on the Allied CVs was due to his settings!!! [X(]

If I understand him correctly he limited the strike range so as not to hit ships under heavy CAP at Nagasaki and elsewhere. I'm sure his thinking was that he had enough CAP, but the KB came through again. As he said in his note, this was the ONE day to strike, and I got it right this time. [&o]

In a related note Jocke asked in his message if we have differing views on the Kwangtung Army. He seems to be under the impression that troops from Manchuria would not be allowed to move to Korea based on our HR. I've been moving them back and forth all game as they are governed by the same HQ and the Manchuria garrison includes Korea in its calculations.

Is this normal? I can't imagine limiting troops to not defend close to the Home Islands and keep them on the Russian border after a major Allied landing.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: obvert
Japan's ability, even as hampered as I am now, is so far out of the range of what they could do in real life I can see how the Allies in game can justify the losses.

I do not think that your victory has anything to do with Japans ingame capabilities compared to real life (with the possible exception of pilot training).

I am in no way trying to lessen your achievement here over the last turns, but Jockmeister simply came in dumb, unprepared, and chose to run straight into the possibly best defended area you had left. He learned a lot in your PBEM, but this specific op was simply bad play on a strategic level, and mediocre on a tactical level.

Had the Allies invaded the HI in a similar fashion in WWII, without any target prep AND without local naval supremacy AND without complete surprise, the losses would have been horrendous.

[koniu]

ORIGINAL: obvert


In a related note Jocke asked in his message if we have differing views on the Kwangtung Army. He seems to be under the impression that troops from Manchuria would not be allowed to move to Korea based on our HR. I've been moving them back and forth all game as they are governed by the same HQ and the Manchuria garrison includes Korea in its calculations.

Is this normal? I can't imagine limiting troops to not defend close to the Home Islands and keep them on the Russian border after a major Allied landing.

I was thinking about that also.
In real war i think Japan will move all what they have can to push back invasion back to sea.
You are in place where in real world army man will say f**k politicians and will do everything necessary to win.

Manchuria garrison is 8000AV before SU will activate. I think it should be natural to be able to move everything from Manchuria above 8k without paying PP.
But HR is HR

If this is true that Kore is counted as Manchuria garrison It will allow You to move entire garrison south to fight with invasion. Only thing holding You is HR. I wounder about reaction of SU if they see that entire Manchuria army is abandoning position and is moving south. To much speculations, i alo not know in what stage of preparation was Su in may, they prabably where not ready to attack becouse war in Europe end just week ealier.

[Speedysteve]

Wow. Amazing series of battles Obvert. Devastating for the Allies. Nicely done!

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: koniu

ORIGINAL: obvert


In a related note Jocke asked in his message if we have differing views on the Kwangtung Army. He seems to be under the impression that troops from Manchuria would not be allowed to move to Korea based on our HR. I've been moving them back and forth all game as they are governed by the same HQ and the Manchuria garrison includes Korea in its calculations.

Is this normal? I can't imagine limiting troops to not defend close to the Home Islands and keep them on the Russian border after a major Allied landing.

I was thinking about that also.
In real war i think Japan will move all what they have can to push back invasion back to sea.
You are in place where in real world army man will say f**k politicians and will do everything necessary to win.

Manchuria garrison is 8000AV before SU will activate. I think it should be natural to be able to move everything from Manchuria above 8k without paying PP.
But HR is HR

If this is true that Kore is counted as Manchuria garrison It will allow You to move entire garrison south to fight with invasion. Only thing holding You is HR. I wounder about reaction of SU if they see that entire Manchuria army is abandoning position and is moving south. To much speculations, i alo not know in what stage of preparation was Su in may, they prabably where not ready to attack becouse war in Europe end just week ealier.

Exactly. The garrison does for sure count the troops in Korea, so I never thought of it as separate. I've been moving troops all over the place there because most arrive all over the place. A bunch come in Korea, some in the North, but all are under the Kwangtung Army. There is no Korean Army HQ.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: obvert
Japan's ability, even as hampered as I am now, is so far out of the range of what they could do in real life I can see how the Allies in game can justify the losses.

I do not think that your victory has anything to do with Japans ingame capabilities compared to real life (with the possible exception of pilot training).

I am in no way trying to lessen your achievement here over the last turns, but Jockmeister simply came in dumb, unprepared, and chose to run straight into the possibly best defended area you had left. He learned a lot in your PBEM, but this specific op was simply bad play on a strategic level, and mediocre on a tactical level.

Had the Allies invaded the HI in a similar fashion in WWII, without any target prep AND without local naval supremacy AND without complete surprise, the losses would have been horrendous.

Right.

I always wonder, as the CVs were off the HI quite a lot, and BBs bombarded facilities in Japan, so it makes me think either the Japanese were waiting for that one big decisive battle pushing the Allies off of the beaches, or they simply couldn't have had this big of an impact with what was left. I guess that will never be known.

Losing cruiser late (Indy) or having one kami hit on a CV (Franklin) was a catastrophe in the war. The kind of destruction seen here the last few turns would have been unbelievable, completely. Worse than Midway in terms of actual losses and many times worse in terms of ships damaged, casualties and momentum change at that point.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Wow. Amazing series of battles Obvert. Devastating for the Allies. Nicely done!

Right place, right time. At last. I've rolled the dice so many times in this game, and only a few have come up sixes. Feels good when it does.

[catwhoorg]

ORIGINAL: obvert

Exactly. The garrison does for sure count the troops in Korea, so I never thought of it as separate. I've been moving troops all over the place there because most arrive all over the place. A bunch come in Korea, some in the North, but all are under the Kwangtung Army. There is no Korean Army HQ.

There's the very reasonable answer to the query.

I must admit I wasn't aware of that.

[Barb]

I think, that Jock had put up a worst possible operation - in strategic terms, executed very badly tactically, without surprise, against prepared opposition, ... On the other side you have got it right and in the right moment. Congratulations to you, you did a great job here.

Anyway Korea is counted as Manchuria in terms of garrison requirements in game. It also has no separate Army level HQ, so I would not call it against House Rules to move units between Korea and Manchuria.

However in reality, Manchukuo was a puppet state, while Korea was annexed as Japanese territory. In game terms this would mean moving a home defense restricted units to Korea for free - with current code, impossible. So probably it was designers decision to include Korea into Manchuria.
It would also be interesting what the Soviets would do in the case of most Japanese troops moving to Korea (were they prepared to launch an offensive??).

[PaxMondo]

+1

Units there count as part of the MAN garrison, for me that means you can move them there w/o penalty ... never even considered otherwise ... why would you leave troops to get cut-off? Makes no sense, saving troops trumps politics.

[Lokasenna]

Joc may not be aware that Korea/Manchuria count as the same for the garrison. Given the HR issues that have come up with this game already... it might be worth informing him.

[FeurerKrieg]

Since there is no Korea Army HQ, there can't be a restriction on moving Manchuria troops to Korea since what would you switch the Manchukuo units to? Manchuria units to China makes sense since there is a command you could change to (although since China is restricted I just switch them to SAA anyways).

[jonreb31]

Great battle to witness. As a primarily Japanese player I now know more hope!

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Barb

I think, that Jock had put up a worst possible operation - in strategic terms, executed very badly tactically, without surprise, against prepared opposition, ... On the other side you have got it right and in the right moment. Congratulations to you, you did a great job here.

Anyway Korea is counted as Manchuria in terms of garrison requirements in game. It also has no separate Army level HQ, so I would not call it against House Rules to move units between Korea and Manchuria.

However in reality, Manchukuo was a puppet state, while Korea was annexed as Japanese territory. In game terms this would mean moving a home defense restricted units to Korea for free - with current code, impossible. So probably it was designers decision to include Korea into Manchuria.
It would also be interesting what the Soviets would do in the case of most Japanese troops moving to Korea (were they prepared to launch an offensive??).

The inability to move Home Island restrict troops is a huge oversight in this game IMHO. To not be able to move from Honshu to Hokkaido even is pretty unrealistic. Now I have a ton of troops in Hokkaido that are Southern Army and other HQs because i couldn't fly equipment and couldn't move troops by sea.

The game does treat Korea and Manchuria as one, and this, as Pax points out also, is the only sensible way to do it since Korea would be the most primary defense area. Doesn't make sense to not fight for Korea at least while holding dearly to Manchuria.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Joc may not be aware that Korea/Manchuria count as the same for the garrison. Given the HR issues that have come up with this game already... it might be worth informing him.

Looks like he's not going to stick on that point, and says he would have made the move even if he thought it was all one area. So now we're in for some big battles I'm sure. I'm not sure I can get enough troops there to defeat an Allied force, but I might be able to get enough to stop them without getting more than a few bases. A few level 9 fields will be tough, but not catastrophic if not too close.

[MrBlizzard]

These battles are really a great show to see, amazing at this stage in war.
Allied were a bit overconfident this time.
And this appears to be just the beginning because of the miscalculation of Korea/Manchukuo HQ.
I suppose your opponent was misguided by the borders drawn in map. Manchukuo and Korea are divided by borders BUT are under the same command (Manchukuo HQ). So there isn't PP and HR issue here. We must admit that for an Allied player this is difficult to know or imagine unless he has played Japan at least once.
Discovering this in the hard way will be a real blow for Joke's morale..
How many AV have you got on Manchukuo?

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard

These battles are really a great show to see, amazing at this stage in war.
Allied were a bit overconfident this time.
And this appears to be just the beginning because of the miscalculation of Korea/Manchukuo HQ.
I suppose your opponent was misguided by the borders drawn in map. Manchukuo and Korea are divided by borders BUT are under the same command (Manchukuo HQ). So there isn't PP and HR issue here. We must admit that for an Allied player this is difficult to know or imagine unless he has played Japan at least once.
Discovering this in the hard way will be a real blow for Joke's morale..
How many AV have you got on Manchukuo?

The numbers show about 14k AV. Now that is a lot of under filled divisions as I haven't had supply to fill them up. So not as strong as it could be, but there are a lot of decent early war Manchurian divisions with 60+ exp here. Supply will be a struggle, but in China we've seen lately that even low on supply a defending force can slow down a major Allied Army.

The key points for me will be not giving up major bases like Fusan and Keijo. We'll see.

[obvert]

[left this for a while as I was in the middle of making a map ad got distracted]

Here it is. I don't want to try and mark up all of the various TFs. There are CVs off of Kyushu and off of Moppo. The SAGs are spread 4-6 hexes off of Kagoshima. Al of mine except a few Es have retreated to Nagasaki. The two TFs of the KB at Nagasaki will attempt a run to Maizuro tomorrow. Could be dicey, but some BBs will move with them, and there are lots of mines int eh area to slow anything coming.