'stuffing' the border

[hakon]

Hi, Breunor, and welcome to the forum.

You may wish to read the entire thread, because all your arguments have already come up. If you go to the yahoo groups called wifdiscussion, you will find even more material on the issue, based solely on the boardgame.

I'll give you a short summary, though.

1) Your esimate of Russia being able to stuff 65% is a bit low. By doing whatever it takes, the number would usually be over 80%, or even more if they are willing to DOW someone ot keep the garrison up.
2) Russia can act AS IF they are going to stuff the border up until SO 1940 at no significant extra cost, and up to this time they may also have a significant force vs Japan. If they have good chits at this time, their odds are going to be much better than average, and if they have bad chits, they can just pull back at no cost. If they reach this conclusion at the end of SO1941, they can still build 3 artillerists, 3 extra pilots (beyond those needed to fill their starting aircraft) and 5 fighters before the summer of 41. The only downside that I can see of doing this, is that Russia should not demand the Finnish borderlands if they want to be able to stuff the border.
3) Germany, on the other hand, starts to get opportunity costs from planning a Barb41 quite early, provided that they are not able to go through with it. There will be no room for starting TRS or AMPH, building a sub fleet, finishing Tirpitz, building units like MAR, NAV, FTR3, and other units that are useful in the Med or in a sealion. This is kind a big sacrifice, since they will be unable to do a 41 barb in more than 50% of games if Russia plays like outlined above. (Even when assuming Russia pulls away from the border if their chits are below average in SO40).
4) Still, in a game where Germany plans a 1941 barb, it is practically suicide for Russia to fight a full blown war vs Japan, so if Japan wants the far east, there is little Russia can do about it. (They can try to hold chita, though, at least for a while.) So no real loss there, by stuffing.
5) Finally, if Russia decides to stay at the border, they always have the option of DOW-ing someone, in order to get the reserves and to be able to build cheap MIL, or even to be able to quickly pull back if they pull extremely low chits in 1941, for instance. While this costs some US entry, it is still an important safetly fuse for Russia, making it very unlikely that Germany will actually be able to catch them at the border (provided they don't make mistakes).

All of the above does assume, of course, that the Russian player is able to roughly calculate the probabilities that the stuff will hold in any given situation, which certainly excludes a large number of less experienced players. And if your groups is not very good at fully exploiting the combined attack potential of the Axis countries (or if you play with 1d10, or 3d10 or something), your russian players may not see the need to avoid a 1941 barb, so it may not come up very often.

Personally, I have the experience that a concentrated 1941 Barb is too strong, and I would really like to see a real solution that restores the balance of the 1941 barb. Unfortunately, though, it seems like many people are satisfied by having the the stuff tactic work as a "counter" to a 1941 barb, something I don't find satisfying at all.

If you want details about the points above, please read the thread. All of the points have been discussed in very extensive detail.

Cheers
hakon

[darune]

For the situation of the Germans taking the Netherlands, Poland, and Yugoslavia all on the first turn with no losses ... just surrender your Allies and start over if you can't set up minors and the BEF well enough to prevent that. Hint: Defend Zagreb's flanks to the max and just leave one weak unit in Belgrade, cover the North Sea with a strong Home Fleet and threaten an intervention in Rotterdam.

Surrender on the first turn ? I guess you are joking.

Yoguslavia is hard to defend with only 4 corps being set up initially in 39. Align rumania on impulse 3 and then align hungary on impulse 5 to go around zagreb flank.

An intervention in rotterdam can be avoided if you are willing to risk a cruiser and an inf div. against the home fleet. Do a combined, sail to the sea with the inf div. and hope no one finds, so you are able to attack rotterdam on the surprise impulse (or land safely with the division if notional is not set up). Of course this plan will not succeed always, but the odds are better than 50% i guess.

So all in all I think it can accomplished with a long first turn and a little luck. Netherlands is not that all important anyways, if the turn ends earlier.

[composer99]

I personally used the division invasion to help secure the Netherlands in Sept/Oct 1939 in my current game.

I only wish I hadn't flubbed the French campaign & taken 'till May/June '41 to finish them off - I'd be starting a '41 Barb controlling East Poland. [:(]

[Zorachus99]

ORIGINAL: composer99

I personally used the division invasion to help secure the Netherlands in Sept/Oct 1939 in my current game.

I only wish I hadn't flubbed the French campaign & taken 'till May/June '41 to finish them off - I'd be starting a '41 Barb controlling East Poland. [:(]

I've seen things like this happen. Very painful.

[Breunor]

Thanks Hakon!

Well, your points look well founded. I haven't read through the whole thread, but my main point is whether what I said is 'right' or not - my point is that in my experience, the people I play with and have a lot of influence with WIFFE haven't viewed forward defense (stuffing) as a problem.

That is, I don't want to get into a debate on who is right, I realized that the arguments have gone back and forth quite a lot. I wanted to say what the 'conventional wisdom' is. Again, conventional wisdom isn't necessarily 'right'. But specifically, if Harry Rowland doesn't think it is a problem, it is not likely to get a lot of attention.

You've gone to a few of the conventions. I've gone to some of the US ones - have you seen the stuffing as a major straetgy in the games at EuroWifcOn? I just haven't seen it a lot.

One issue that we have with 'right' is that in my experience, it depends a LOT on exactly which options you play and sometimes on rules' interpretations. One nice aspect of WIFFE is that there are so many options that you can tailor your games to your liking; conversely, it makes discussing the 'right' strategy hard. It is especially hard given how long it takes to play a game WIFFE, so it is hard to get a good scientific study.

As an example, does your 80% figure apply to WIFFE Classic?

It is interesting that we have different views on 'stuffing' since I also, like you, find that a combined attack by Japan, Italy, and Germany on Russia in 1941 is too hard to stop (and indeed we usually play 1 D 10 for that reason). But you and I are in the minority, I find most fo the WIFFE crowd seems to think the game is pro-Allied. (And here I don't think they are right). [:)]



Good gaming,

Breunor

[hakon]

Breunor

I've only been to the Eurowifcon once, and that was this year. On that con, I not a lot of people were doing 1941 barbs. Now, this could eier be because they are afraid to get stuffed (in which case I would consider stuffing to be an issue), or it could just be because they preferred other strategies.

In my game, we had agreed beforehand that Russia would not stuff the border, which our opponents had no problem with, in fact I got the impression they preferred it that way themselves.

In fact, I suspect that most groups that don't like stuffing, come to some such agreement internally.

As for how easy it is to stuff the border in Classic, I haven not calculated this. I don't think it would make such a huge difference, though, since stuffing mostly requires building corps, anyway, and most of the corps are available in classic, too. The biggest change that I can think of, is that the extra planes in flames starting aircraft are not in the setup, which takes away some cheap garrison units on each side. (It takes only 2bp to fill them with a pilot). Classic also means that you play without the extra CBV, which clearly makes a big difference.

Of course, in classic, Germany losses may be a bit higher early on, due to the lack of divisional losses, meaning that each loss on a blitz attack in France is likely to kill at least a MOT, and maybe even a MECH (for the extra armor bonus). 1d10 will just increase the German losses further.

I'm not too concerned about classic, though, since I'm not likely to ever play it. And within deluxe, there are not THAT many options that affect stuffing probability, apart from the CBV (which are usually included when calculating stuffing probabilities). So I really don't think the optional rules are a big factor in this discussion. (At least as long as one plays with the core options of deluxe, including PiF, SiF and divs.)

Finally, I would like to point out that this forum is for the computer game. By turning the game into a computer game, some changes will usually start to occur. Specifically, once players start relying on the game engine as the final rules arbiter, the tendency to come up with house rules, local interpretations, etc, is likely to decrease. Also, playing over the internet will tend to increase player tolerance to "gamey" tactics, both because a computer game is less personal, and also because people will be less likely to play the same people over and over again.

One thing I've noticed by "gamey" tactics, is that once people have had them used against them, they tend to be more likely to use them themselves. In a way, this make them infectious, in the Richard Dawkins/meme theory kind of way. This means that when you start playing a more diversified group of people, the tendency to (ab-)use such rules will tend to spread, at least when they provide an increased chance of winning.

Having an official option that makes stuffing hard (or impossible) in 1941, would enable players to deal with this problem before the game, instead of during the game.

Now, if you haven't experienced "stuffing" as a problem in your group, then lucky you. Then again, you've also stated that more people prefer a 42 barb in your experience than a 41 barb. Do you think this could have something to dow with the risk of being stuffed, or is it a real preferrence for a 42 barb in all cases?

Cheers
Hakon

[BallyJ]

2) Rebalance Russia as needed, to prevent 1941 Barbs from being blow outs so often.

I have to say that in the games I play a 41 invasion of Russia is not always a "blow out"
Some are put just as many are hard cheese for the Germans.
Most are in the middle.
Regards John

[darune]

Have you considered the fact that one of the reasons the seal med. strategy / 42 barbarossa gets so much attention (as a strong axis play) could exactly be because of USSR ability to prevent the 41 war ?

From a metagame analysis this basicly puts the 41 barb. as a risky strategy (on par with france first or attempted 40 barb.) as long as the war can be prevented for the entire 41.

However I think there should also/still be a mechanic that prevents germany from a big lend-lease to italy if it wants to do the 41 barb.

The chit and pact rules are good for that. Just the garrison should be changed so USSR, by itself, could not get more than around 40%-50% (maybe even 60% also ok since its very risky if fails) chance of a stuff in MJ 41.

I like the proposed option (only 3:2 needed in JA 41, very elegant), however im a bit concerned about the lend-lease to italy with that. Because if the option effectively removes the stuff as a strategy on the USSR part, then GE dont have to be concerned with building its own stuff.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: BallyJ
I have to say that in the games I play a 41 invasion of Russia is not always a "blow out"
Some are put just as many are hard cheese for the Germans.
Most are in the middle.
Regards John

Exactly.
Same for me.
Each Russian blowout I saw, was because of a severe experience difference between the German and Russian player.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: darune

Have you considered the fact that one of the reasons the seal med. strategy / 42 barbarossa gets so much attention (as a strong axis play) could exactly be because of USSR ability to prevent the 41 war ?

[/quote]
Maybe you could also consider the fact that the close the Med strategy is the one with the highest ratio between easiness and cashback.
It is very easy to win using that strategy (Spain is undefendable and if the stuff the border strategy has 90% chances of success, Gibraltar have at least a 99% chance of falling to a determined German), and it gives you a lot of objective cities, and a very good position to defend them.

Barb is not that easy, and it can fire back at you easily. A stroke of bad luck when assaulting key cities, or a flank too much exposed, and you may find yourself bogged down before having severely hurt Russia, and then you're toast.

[Breunor]

Darune,
 
I can tell you with virtual certainty that 42 Barbrossa's performed by the WIFFE crowd rarely are performed because they think a Soviet forward strategy is too strong.  The 41 vs. 42 Barbarossa is perhaps the single most discussed strategic topic, and I don't think avoiding border stuffing has been listed as a top 5 reason.  I've had these discussions with WIFFE players for years and they have been posted on WIFFE boards. The main reason to favor a 42 Barbarossa are the obvious, strategic benefits; Italy's factories and considerable air force are very important and taking Gibraltar makes it very hard for the Wallies to strike back at Italy, taking Gibraltar de fact knocks the CW our of Africa once Japan sorties in the Indian Ocean, The USSR can now be attacked from the south through Persia close to the Soviet production center, etc. 
 
Please believe me - Hakan and you and maybe a few other people here consider it an overpowering, broken strategy - the bulk of the WIFFE world, including Harry Rowland, do not.  It is NOT the centerpoint of all strategies and before I saw this forum, I have never heard major complaints about this issue.
 
Indeed, almost without a doubt the most debated rules are the Soviet production multipliers, and that is why we have 'Hitler's War’, the regular rules, etc.   In all of these cases, the impacts of these rules have had their impact on the ability of the Germans to break the pact assessed by Harry Rowland and his main group of playtesters and even generally the people on the WIFFE discussion boards.
 
There are always people in a game this long and complex with so many options that feel the game is 'broken' for some reason - probably some combination of optional rules used, rules interpretations, playing style, etc.  Indeed, in the history of WIFFE, game breaking mechanics have been discovered and fixed - for example, some of the actions that the Soviets had been allowed to do before the war started. 
 
In most cases, though, these issues are absolutely applicable to the people playing and discovering these issues, with their rules, options etc - but when brought to the 'powers that be', most players don't find the 'game-breaking' issue to apply.  This cycle will often lead to frustration by the people reporting the issue, but it is important to recognize that the WIFFE community has a lot of different views and voices.
 
Hakon, I strongly disagree with your supposition that the rules won't impact the ability to break the pact.  Classic, for instance, is quite a lot different from deluxe especially because of limited number of units available, I would be very surprised if calculations made from deluxe would apply to classic.  Any rule or rule set that impacts the force pool (city based volunteers as an example) can impact the calculations.  Over the years, the 'broken' strategies have usually come down to a set of rules being used that individually work well but in combination cause balance to get out of equilibrium.
 
I recognize that this forum is for the computer game.  The reason I'm posting here is to say why the WIFFE board game community has not changed the rule here.  I can assure all of you that the game designers and players and main tournament players over the last decade know about the rule – you haven’t discovered something that hasn’t been thought of or examined.  It apparently has not been considered a major issue in the forums up until here.  It has not been a major strategy at any WIFFE tournament that I know about. 
 
So, unless the computer game is quite different from the board game, I want to let people reading this forum to know that the mainstream crowd does not view that there is a flaw that has been discovered on this forum that hasn’t been discovered on the board game forums; that there not a strategy that someone here has thought of that slipped through the cracks and hasn’t been considered by the game designer or by the major playtesters..
 
I think it is great that the computer game will allow far more testing, so we can know for sure if mechanics are ‘broken’.  Of course, in the board game, it isn’t so much of a problem – people finding a rule they don’t like simply house rule it.  A computer game can’t be so easily house ruled, all of the options have to be programmed – so if the programmers put in alternatives to stuffing, all the better, nobody is harmed. 
 
But I’m sorry if this comes across the wrong way – I think you have assumed the game is ‘broken’, or think you have proven it; found a strategy that is too strong that slipped the designers notice.  You are sure you will be vindicated.  Perhaps you will.  I hope you don’t mind that I am trying to put in a voice for ‘mainstream’ WIFFE.  Most of the WIFFE crowd knows this strategy and have reached different conclusions.  I’m trying to let the computer WIFFE community hear this voice.
 
And I want to repeat, you may be right.  I’ve played a lot and don’t mind this rule, that is just my opinion.  But I’m going to trust the mainstream opinion given how many people have played and reported over the last decade.  The computer game should help determine who is correct here, and clearly if WIFFE play increases because of the computer game and more trials prove your point, I suspect Harry Rowland will change the rules. 
 
 
But I think the debate gets back to the first point.  I said in my experience, a 42 Barbarossa is most popular.  You are saying it must be because people are afraid of stuffing.  This isn’t the case.  The WIFFE crowd knows about this and right now isn’t worried. 
 
So if you guys keep saying that the rest of the world is just plain wrong, well, there really isn’t any more to say.  That is your opinion, I can respect that.  The bulk of the WIFFE crowd disagrees.
 
Good gaming!
 
Breunor

[Ullern]

ORIGINAL: Breunor

One issue that we have with 'right' is that in my experience, it depends a LOT on exactly which options you play and sometimes on rules' interpretations. One nice aspect of WIFFE is that there are so many options that you can tailor your games to your liking; conversely, it makes discussing the 'right' strategy hard. It is especially hard given how long it takes to play a game WIFFE, so it is hard to get a good scientific study.

As an example, does your 80% figure apply to WIFFE Classic?

Actually. One of the cases I calculated in post 281 was Classic + PiF only + City Based Volunteers (so no SIF, no Mech in Flames Gar, no divs or artillery). But I still assumed the USSR DOWed Italy and produced MIL. With these options the results was pretty much the same as Haakons calculations. But I did assume no losses, and that would be different. Also if the USSR was not allowed to produce MIL, it would make a big difference.


In my many WIF games I've seen the stuff only once. And I don't believe it was really planned, but the USSR had DOWed Italy to be able to take land impulses and produce MIL. I played Germany and planned a MJ41 Barb. But in late MA41 I found I would be better off to expel some British in Denmark and take Yugo in MJ41 and postpone the Barb to JA. Well in MJ41 the USSR decided he wanted to go from a medium backward set up to a forward set up, and he was quite off to make any stuff, so I didn't think it would cause any problems, and I didn't align all countries I could align, but I did align Romania which proved to be a mistake. When I got to fist impulse JA41 I had exactly ONE point too little to break the pact. Man, was that annoying!

(Me aligning Romania was a mistake because much of the USSR forces in Ukraine would not have made it to the border zone if I had not shortened the distance they had to walk by aligning Romania.)

We were able to strike a deal out of that one. He was allowed to spend a few impulses reorganizing his lines, and I was allowed to DOW later in JA41. But in hindsight I should have declined the deal. Because we play with the "Hitlers war" option, which gives the USSR extra production once Germany DOWs, and I was not able to take that much in 41 that it justified the extra production he got. If those impulses I had to wait made the difference or not is hard to tell. But what would have made a difference is if May/Jun had been an impulse shorter and I had got to DOW on a USSR that was halfway between one defence and the other. (I would not have dared such a move as the USSR, because I count, but I think these guys didn't. They just gambled and got lucky the turn lasted long enough.)

***

But back on track.
I've played a huge number of campaigns and never seen the stuff except for that weird situation I described above. And I do have some thoughts on why not. It's because we're always four for five players in our group. So one guy is playing USSR and France. And France get beat early, and then that player starts meddling: Oh! Can't you other guys speed up a little. Do you really have to fight that BoA and can't you just attack me now instead! And then finally: OK OK! I get to bored of this "Stuff strategy" of mine. I admit it! I DOW Persia/Finland/Japan now!
_ And stuff problem solved. [:D]

And while I am at it. I could not understand who would want to Sitz either. I mean I understand it's possible to win. But the campaigns I am used to takes a real year to finish if we are to play into '45. So what a way to spend my free time! I'll just plan to play Germany next to every week for a year doing nothing! That's my kind of fun.

[BallyJ]

ORIGINAL: Breunor

Darune,

I can tell you with virtual certainty that 42 Barbrossa's performed by the WIFFE crowd rarely are performed because they think a Soviet forward strategy is too strong.  The 41 vs. 42 Barbarossa is perhaps the single most discussed strategic topic, and I don't think avoiding border stuffing has been listed as a top 5 reason.  I've had these discussions with WIFFE players for years and they have been posted on WIFFE boards. The main reason to favor a 42 Barbarossa are the obvious, strategic benefits; Italy's factories and considerable air force are very important and taking Gibraltar makes it very hard for the Wallies to strike back at Italy, taking Gibraltar de fact knocks the CW our of Africa once Japan sorties in the Indian Ocean, The USSR can now be attacked from the south through Persia close to the Soviet production center, etc. 

Please believe me - Hakan and you and maybe a few other people here consider it an overpowering, broken strategy - the bulk of the WIFFE world, including Harry Rowland, do not.  It is NOT the centerpoint of all strategies and before I saw this forum, I have never heard major complaints about this issue.

Indeed, almost without a doubt the most debated rules are the Soviet production multipliers, and that is why we have 'Hitler's War’, the regular rules, etc.   In all of these cases, the impacts of these rules have had their impact on the ability of the Germans to break the pact assessed by Harry Rowland and his main group of playtesters and even generally the people on the WIFFE discussion boards.

There are always people in a game this long and complex with so many options that feel the game is 'broken' for some reason - probably some combination of optional rules used, rules interpretations, playing style, etc.  Indeed, in the history of WIFFE, game breaking mechanics have been discovered and fixed - for example, some of the actions that the Soviets had been allowed to do before the war started. 

In most cases, though, these issues are absolutely applicable to the people playing and discovering these issues, with their rules, options etc - but when brought to the 'powers that be', most players don't find the 'game-breaking' issue to apply.  This cycle will often lead to frustration by the people reporting the issue, but it is important to recognize that the WIFFE community has a lot of different views and voices.

Hakon, I strongly disagree with your supposition that the rules won't impact the ability to break the pact.  Classic, for instance, is quite a lot different from deluxe especially because of limited number of units available, I would be very surprised if calculations made from deluxe would apply to classic.  Any rule or rule set that impacts the force pool (city based volunteers as an example) can impact the calculations.  Over the years, the 'broken' strategies have usually come down to a set of rules being used that individually work well but in combination cause balance to get out of equilibrium.

I recognize that this forum is for the computer game.  The reason I'm posting here is to say why the WIFFE board game community has not changed the rule here.  I can assure all of you that the game designers and players and main tournament players over the last decade know about the rule – you haven’t discovered something that hasn’t been thought of or examined.  It apparently has not been considered a major issue in the forums up until here.  It has not been a major strategy at any WIFFE tournament that I know about. 

So, unless the computer game is quite different from the board game, I want to let people reading this forum to know that the mainstream crowd does not view that there is a flaw that has been discovered on this forum that hasn’t been discovered on the board game forums; that there not a strategy that someone here has thought of that slipped through the cracks and hasn’t been considered by the game designer or by the major playtesters..

I think it is great that the computer game will allow far more testing, so we can know for sure if mechanics are ‘broken’.  Of course, in the board game, it isn’t so much of a problem – people finding a rule they don’t like simply house rule it.  A computer game can’t be so easily house ruled, all of the options have to be programmed – so if the programmers put in alternatives to stuffing, all the better, nobody is harmed. 

But I’m sorry if this comes across the wrong way – I think you have assumed the game is ‘broken’, or think you have proven it; found a strategy that is too strong that slipped the designers notice.  You are sure you will be vindicated.  Perhaps you will.  I hope you don’t mind that I am trying to put in a voice for ‘mainstream’ WIFFE.  Most of the WIFFE crowd knows this strategy and have reached different conclusions.  I’m trying to let the computer WIFFE community hear this voice.

And I want to repeat, you may be right.  I’ve played a lot and don’t mind this rule, that is just my opinion.  But I’m going to trust the mainstream opinion given how many people have played and reported over the last decade.  The computer game should help determine who is correct here, and clearly if WIFFE play increases because of the computer game and more trials prove your point, I suspect Harry Rowland will change the rules. 


But I think the debate gets back to the first point.  I said in my experience, a 42 Barbarossa is most popular.  You are saying it must be because people are afraid of stuffing.  This isn’t the case.  The WIFFE crowd knows about this and right now isn’t worried. 

So if you guys keep saying that the rest of the world is just plain wrong, well, there really isn’t any more to say.  That is your opinion, I can respect that.  The bulk of the WIFFE crowd disagrees.

Good gaming!

Breunor

Thank you for taking the time to post.
I agree with you 98.9%
regards John

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Breunor

Darune,

I can tell you with virtual certainty that 42 Barbrossa's performed by the WIFFE crowd rarely are performed because they think a Soviet forward strategy is too strong.  The 41 vs. 42 Barbarossa is perhaps the single most discussed strategic topic, and I don't think avoiding border stuffing has been listed as a top 5 reason.  I've had these discussions with WIFFE players for years and they have been posted on WIFFE boards. The main reason to favor a 42 Barbarossa are the obvious, strategic benefits; Italy's factories and considerable air force are very important and taking Gibraltar makes it very hard for the Wallies to strike back at Italy, taking Gibraltar de fact knocks the CW our of Africa once Japan sorties in the Indian Ocean, The USSR can now be attacked from the south through Persia close to the Soviet production center, etc. 

Please believe me - Hakan and you and maybe a few other people here consider it an overpowering, broken strategy - the bulk of the WIFFE world, including Harry Rowland, do not.  It is NOT the centerpoint of all strategies and before I saw this forum, I have never heard major complaints about this issue.

Indeed, almost without a doubt the most debated rules are the Soviet production multipliers, and that is why we have 'Hitler's War’, the regular rules, etc.   In all of these cases, the impacts of these rules have had their impact on the ability of the Germans to break the pact assessed by Harry Rowland and his main group of playtesters and even generally the people on the WIFFE discussion boards.

There are always people in a game this long and complex with so many options that feel the game is 'broken' for some reason - probably some combination of optional rules used, rules interpretations, playing style, etc.  Indeed, in the history of WIFFE, game breaking mechanics have been discovered and fixed - for example, some of the actions that the Soviets had been allowed to do before the war started. 

In most cases, though, these issues are absolutely applicable to the people playing and discovering these issues, with their rules, options etc - but when brought to the 'powers that be', most players don't find the 'game-breaking' issue to apply.  This cycle will often lead to frustration by the people reporting the issue, but it is important to recognize that the WIFFE community has a lot of different views and voices.

Hakon, I strongly disagree with your supposition that the rules won't impact the ability to break the pact.  Classic, for instance, is quite a lot different from deluxe especially because of limited number of units available, I would be very surprised if calculations made from deluxe would apply to classic.  Any rule or rule set that impacts the force pool (city based volunteers as an example) can impact the calculations.  Over the years, the 'broken' strategies have usually come down to a set of rules being used that individually work well but in combination cause balance to get out of equilibrium.

I recognize that this forum is for the computer game.  The reason I'm posting here is to say why the WIFFE board game community has not changed the rule here.  I can assure all of you that the game designers and players and main tournament players over the last decade know about the rule – you haven’t discovered something that hasn’t been thought of or examined.  It apparently has not been considered a major issue in the forums up until here.  It has not been a major strategy at any WIFFE tournament that I know about. 

So, unless the computer game is quite different from the board game, I want to let people reading this forum to know that the mainstream crowd does not view that there is a flaw that has been discovered on this forum that hasn’t been discovered on the board game forums; that there not a strategy that someone here has thought of that slipped through the cracks and hasn’t been considered by the game designer or by the major playtesters..

I think it is great that the computer game will allow far more testing, so we can know for sure if mechanics are ‘broken’.  Of course, in the board game, it isn’t so much of a problem – people finding a rule they don’t like simply house rule it.  A computer game can’t be so easily house ruled, all of the options have to be programmed – so if the programmers put in alternatives to stuffing, all the better, nobody is harmed. 

But I’m sorry if this comes across the wrong way – I think you have assumed the game is ‘broken’, or think you have proven it; found a strategy that is too strong that slipped the designers notice.  You are sure you will be vindicated.  Perhaps you will.  I hope you don’t mind that I am trying to put in a voice for ‘mainstream’ WIFFE.  Most of the WIFFE crowd knows this strategy and have reached different conclusions.  I’m trying to let the computer WIFFE community hear this voice.

And I want to repeat, you may be right.  I’ve played a lot and don’t mind this rule, that is just my opinion.  But I’m going to trust the mainstream opinion given how many people have played and reported over the last decade.  The computer game should help determine who is correct here, and clearly if WIFFE play increases because of the computer game and more trials prove your point, I suspect Harry Rowland will change the rules. 


But I think the debate gets back to the first point.  I said in my experience, a 42 Barbarossa is most popular.  You are saying it must be because people are afraid of stuffing.  This isn’t the case.  The WIFFE crowd knows about this and right now isn’t worried. 

So if you guys keep saying that the rest of the world is just plain wrong, well, there really isn’t any more to say.  That is your opinion, I can respect that.  The bulk of the WIFFE crowd disagrees.

Good gaming!

Breunor

Thanks.[&o]

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Breunor

Darune,

I can tell you with virtual certainty that 42 Barbrossa's performed by the WIFFE crowd rarely are performed because they think a Soviet forward strategy is too strong.  The 41 vs. 42 Barbarossa is perhaps the single most discussed strategic topic, and I don't think avoiding border stuffing has been listed as a top 5 reason.  I've had these discussions with WIFFE players for years and they have been posted on WIFFE boards. The main reason to favor a 42 Barbarossa are the obvious, strategic benefits; Italy's factories and considerable air force are very important and taking Gibraltar makes it very hard for the Wallies to strike back at Italy, taking Gibraltar de fact knocks the CW our of Africa once Japan sorties in the Indian Ocean, The USSR can now be attacked from the south through Persia close to the Soviet production center, etc. 

Please believe me - Hakan and you and maybe a few other people here consider it an overpowering, broken strategy - the bulk of the WIFFE world, including Harry Rowland, do not.  It is NOT the centerpoint of all strategies and before I saw this forum, I have never heard major complaints about this issue.

Indeed, almost without a doubt the most debated rules are the Soviet production multipliers, and that is why we have 'Hitler's War’, the regular rules, etc.   In all of these cases, the impacts of these rules have had their impact on the ability of the Germans to break the pact assessed by Harry Rowland and his main group of playtesters and even generally the people on the WIFFE discussion boards.

There are always people in a game this long and complex with so many options that feel the game is 'broken' for some reason - probably some combination of optional rules used, rules interpretations, playing style, etc.  Indeed, in the history of WIFFE, game breaking mechanics have been discovered and fixed - for example, some of the actions that the Soviets had been allowed to do before the war started. 

In most cases, though, these issues are absolutely applicable to the people playing and discovering these issues, with their rules, options etc - but when brought to the 'powers that be', most players don't find the 'game-breaking' issue to apply.  This cycle will often lead to frustration by the people reporting the issue, but it is important to recognize that the WIFFE community has a lot of different views and voices.

Hakon, I strongly disagree with your supposition that the rules won't impact the ability to break the pact.  Classic, for instance, is quite a lot different from deluxe especially because of limited number of units available, I would be very surprised if calculations made from deluxe would apply to classic.  Any rule or rule set that impacts the force pool (city based volunteers as an example) can impact the calculations.  Over the years, the 'broken' strategies have usually come down to a set of rules being used that individually work well but in combination cause balance to get out of equilibrium.

I recognize that this forum is for the computer game.  The reason I'm posting here is to say why the WIFFE board game community has not changed the rule here.  I can assure all of you that the game designers and players and main tournament players over the last decade know about the rule – you haven’t discovered something that hasn’t been thought of or examined.  It apparently has not been considered a major issue in the forums up until here.  It has not been a major strategy at any WIFFE tournament that I know about. 

So, unless the computer game is quite different from the board game, I want to let people reading this forum to know that the mainstream crowd does not view that there is a flaw that has been discovered on this forum that hasn’t been discovered on the board game forums; that there not a strategy that someone here has thought of that slipped through the cracks and hasn’t been considered by the game designer or by the major playtesters..

I think it is great that the computer game will allow far more testing, so we can know for sure if mechanics are ‘broken’.  Of course, in the board game, it isn’t so much of a problem – people finding a rule they don’t like simply house rule it.  A computer game can’t be so easily house ruled, all of the options have to be programmed – so if the programmers put in alternatives to stuffing, all the better, nobody is harmed. 

But I’m sorry if this comes across the wrong way – I think you have assumed the game is ‘broken’, or think you have proven it; found a strategy that is too strong that slipped the designers notice.  You are sure you will be vindicated.  Perhaps you will. I hope you don’t mind that I am trying to put in a voice for ‘mainstream’ WIFFE. Most of the WIFFE crowd knows this strategy and have reached different conclusions.  I’m trying to let the computer WIFFE community hear this voice.

And I want to repeat, you may be right.  I’ve played a lot and don’t mind this rule, that is just my opinion.  But I’m going to trust the mainstream opinion given how many people have played and reported over the last decade.  The computer game should help determine who is correct here, and clearly if WIFFE play increases because of the computer game and more trials prove your point, I suspect Harry Rowland will change the rules. 


But I think the debate gets back to the first point.  I said in my experience, a 42 Barbarossa is most popular.  You are saying it must be because people are afraid of stuffing.  This isn’t the case.  The WIFFE crowd knows about this and right now isn’t worried. 

So if you guys keep saying that the rest of the world is just plain wrong, well, there really isn’t any more to say.  That is your opinion, I can respect that.  The bulk of the WIFFE crowd disagrees.

Good gaming!

Breunor

"the WIFFE crowd ..." "the bulk of the WIFFE world..." "it is important to recognize that the WIFFE community has a lot of different views and voices...." "the WIFFE board game community ..." "the mainstream crowd does not view..." " I hope you don’t mind that I am trying to put in a voice for ‘mainstream’ WIFFE. Most of the WIFFE crowd knows..." "I’m going to trust the mainstream opinion..." "The WIFFE crowd knows about this and right now isn’t worried." "So if you guys keep saying that the rest of the world is just plain wrong..."

Your points are well written and credible, but really, I'd like to see the credentials that appointed you the spokesman for this massive silent majority.

I speak from my own experiences and from what I read, so do Hakon and others who have posted here. I object to you assuming some overall mantle of "WiFdom's vast majority" to support your own opinion when you are unlikely to have had any greater experience of playing the game than those of us who are rabid enough to participate almost every day on this and the other forums. You admit you haven't read the whole thread, but you are quite sure your view is the most popular one.

You're entitled to your opinion but portraying it as though it is the view of 90% of the game's fans is at the least: disingenuous.

[Zorachus99]

As many of us here, I'm simply trying to make sure the product that Steve produces is of good reviewable quality. This game could be dead-panned by critics as having rules that make Operation: Barbarossa nearly impossible (I certainly would point it out).

Imagine a critic and new player simply try to re-create history by making the historical choices.  The game flavor WIF provides is that no game will ever play out the same.  Things can and will radically change.

However the largest operation of the war can be prevented until the arbitrary date of J/F 42 by knowledgeable soviet play.  The pact was signed July 22, the anniversary is no long feat for the change of the garrision ratio as proposed in Steve's optional rule.

Many can debate whether Barb should be possible... wait, why are we debating whether Barb '41 should be possible anyway?  [;)]

I've always felt the rule was designed to prevent an early barb until a large majority of the army was on the border...  who could have guessed I was wrong

[Breunor]

Paul,

These are fair points. I do not speak for the WIFFE community nor do I have any official status, and I apologize if I'm over reaching. I cannot read minds and I haven't taken polls.

I hope people don't mind that I actually do want to maintain anonymity (and I especially don't want continuance of this thread in a personal e-mail) but I am not an employee Of ADG. I am one of the dozens of active WIFFE players who have been around the game since it came out. (Of course, nobody really knows how many active players are WIFFing in their basement without participating at tournaments and forums.)

My main concern and point is that in the zeal that people have to improve the game here, which I think is very beneficial, some readers on this forum who haven't played the board game may get the impression that a new mechanic that breaks the game has been discovered, that ADG is sleeping on the sidelines, and that refusing to make design changes will perpetuate a broken, unplayable game.

So, let's be objective - what I'll do is to tell each one of you reading this post to go to the board game forums yourself. Go to the archives. Look up the reports on the tournaments; look up the hundreds of posts on 42 Barbarossa vs. 41 Barbarossa; this is the best way of getting objective data on the state of the game from the majority of posters. I'm a lurker there. When I report that the majority of community views something, it is my subjective summary of these reports and posts. Since Paul is correct that I don't have any status to 'report' these officially, go look at them yourself. I think I did a good job of summarizing, but it is hard to be objective about yourself.

Even better is to look at the reports and results from the actual tournament games. I don't know the EuroWifcon results as well, but issues from forward defense just haven't been mentioned from the reports I have seen especially from the US tournaments.

Also, take a look at the rule proposal changes in the annuals; some of these are potential fixes (again, sometimes 'fixes' are specific to game communities that have different issues from others) and sometimes they are just 'neat' - but again, we haven't seen much about changing this rule about forward defense.

Also, look at the progression of game rule changes. Many of these have come from weird stuff that the designers never thought of. An example was early was that when Germany DOWed a minor, like Greece, players would align Greece to China (to make the CP's hard to attack). So this rule was changed. Germany would go through France, not take Paris, go into Spain with their army, and then after the army was already in Spain, take Paris and declare Vichy. So the surrender rules were developed. Of course, there have been some changes to main rules, like the 2 D 10 table, although 1 D 10 is still an 'official' rule (it seems that 2 D 10 is played far more commonly). Forward defense is more akin to this; it is a 'main mechanic'. It was CLEARLY put there on purpose as a major, central rule.

As I said, you guys might be right and I have no problem with people reporting their impression of a game breaking game problem - so I hope you don't mind my (admittedly subjective) culling of the discussions on the boards for the last decade. Indeed, personally, I find your arguments pretty convincing and I'm starting to question the conventional wisdom for myself.


So the bottom line for me is that anyone interested in computer WIFFE who has read this forum, I encourage you to go to the board game boards and read what they say over there if you don't trust me as a reporter of them. There is an active community. I can also say without contradiction that the game designers, ADG (Harry Rowland), is still active in maintaining the game. Sometimes computer games are made long after the board game is supported, that isn't the case here. Sometimes people find issues that the collective whole has not - that may or may not be the case here. I reported my interpretations, I think they are good, but I'm human like everyone else. I'm just another long time WIFFE player at the end of the day.

Paul, you say that your view of stuffing comes also from you have read and seen. I just haven't read and seen these; of course I haven't been to all of the tournaments and read every post on every WIFFE forum. If these issues have posted before, then I apologize. Have there been tournaments where this has been a major issue? If so, can you say why ADG didn't change the rule?


My other concern here is that I think it is a little unfair to the Matrix design team - when an active group asks to change a major, central rule to the game that Harry Rowland hasn't changed. You put them into a tight spot. Do they listen to their 'constituents' or to the game designer? As I said, there are a lot of other voices out there. You are right, I don't speak for them, I did however try to summarize my view of them. A very large part of the WIFFE crowd (whom I am defining as the people posting on the boards) won't consider any rule 'official' unless sanctioned by Harry Rowland. I'm 'old school' here - I think the best way to get a rule changed is to take it to Harry Rowland, not put pressure on the Matrix design team and put them in a position where they are effectively asked to override ADG. Isn't that unfair?

One counter to my argument is that by the nature of how easy it is to house-rule, maybe people had problems but didn't report them or deal with them at tournaments. This is possible, although given how vocal the boards are I personally think it is a bit unlikely. As I said before, no one is harmed by having the computer game have an option to allow Germany to break the pact any time they want, or with a different ratio, etc. Why not?


Zorachus99, my impression of the reason for the rule is a little different. And just to be clear, yes, this is my understanding of reading, discussions with other WFF players, hearing from Larry Whalen and Harry Rowland talk about it, etc. Please read disclaimer.

Ok, my impression was the fact that the Soviet Army was placed forward in real life, most WIFFE players would not allow the Soviet army to be caught at the border, and certainly nobody should be within range for a groundstrike. Therefore, the mechanic was included to produce two results - one, the real life result is possible, and two, that the mechanic of forward vs. rear defense has a strategic element to give players strategic choice and variability. The design idea (disclaimer: this is my interpretation) was to make the choice 'roughly equivalent'. Therefore, the probability of holding the pact for the Soviets is supposed to produce the weighted average result of [probability of holding pact x benefit of holding pact] + [(1 - probability of holding pact) x cost of getting caught if it fails] is roughly equal to a rear defense.

My view is that if the probability of holding the pact really is 80% it probably is out of kilter, but it is supposed to be pretty high (certainly above 50%). Conversely, saying that it is high means that the game will get bad reviews may not be correct - there have been many game reviews of the board game, it has the exact same mechanic, and I don't recall this point as ever being a major issue in board game reviews where the crowd tends to be a bit more 'realism' based.


The oddest part about this entire thread for me, and the reason I'm posting here, is when I read it I started scratching my head - because my impression had always that the mechanic wasn't working for the opposite reason! I practically never see the tournament games with a forward defense in 1941 (obviously 1942 is a different story). That is, I thought the mechanic was broken the other way! (I'm also not counting forward defense when Germany has busted in France and their army just isn't strong enough to conquer the USSR - this is the accidental sitz strategy and often it is then the USSR that is trying to break the pact.)


At any rate, like everyone else here I am trying to do my best to help the game and the game process. I admit to a little bit of arrogance in that I do think I've played longer and followed the game more than some of the other people disagreeing with the 'stuffing is broken' crowd and I thought I could add my part, both to design philosophy and to strategy.

Mostly, I especially thought it unfair that a computer game designer be asked to override Harry Rowland when Harry Rowland is active in maintaining the game.

Anyway, I think I've failed, I've become more divisive than helpful. I pretty much don't have any more to say on this topic.

All the best.

[WarHunter]

Breunor,
I'm glad you came and wrote about your years of playing the boardgame. Many of those you met have no doubt shaped a view of the game, which you did relate very well.
The view you expressed while not a mirror of mine exactly, i'd say it reflected much of what i have experienced in playing. The fact you don't actually speak for all those who don't frequent this forum, does not take away from the truth you have written. No one expects an opinion to be written eloquently with all the honeyed words which seek to satisfy all players all the time. The Truth should be enough.
As far as i'm concerned your posts were no where near as arrogant or antagonistic as some have been.

With 5 posts in this forum, you have spoke volumes compared to many with over 100.

Your opinions are valued and on topic about 'stuffing' the border.
Something you addressed most successfully. I stand at your side and in your corner.

[lomyrin]

Breunor,
 
If I am not mistaken I recollect you from the old pipex game forum days and your involvement with the FAQ and rules back then.  As for the Nazi pact breaking chances the new option can be used by those players that are very upset with the stuffing tactic but when not used it does not change the game in any way. Likely most players will not use it.
 
Lars 

[Breunor]

Good to hear from you Lars. Well, I guess it isn't surprsing that I've been 'discovered'. [:)] That was a long time ago!

Ok, now that you know who I am, for those of you who used to be interested in what I'm saying, I'll be a little more granular. Obviously, again, for all reading this, just my opinion.

I LIKE the optional rule for the computer game, but for the opposite reason - I like the rule to protect the computer player from the human player! Indeed, I actually like it for the regular game also! I actually think that the central idea of the thread is actually a very good discussion for WIFFE, but more for the main WIFFE boards.


To me, the main issue is: since garrison value is determined by unit type and not unit factors, can we exploit the garrison value calculation by buying the low quality units that most USSR players scrap or ignore and dedicating everything to buying them for garrison value and stop a 41 Barbarossa?

Of course, by buying these units, maybe not even buying your HQ(!), you have pushed the ability to maintain the pact from the 'normal 60% - 65% to 80%. This is very logical, since the army is now built for garrison value instead of being built for fighting.

In some ways it is similar to the back-up fighter issue; since in the standard rules all back-up fighters added the same amount, very weak fighters were overpowered (and then we have the obsolete fighter rule, etc.) Of course, breaking the pact is a more serious issue than the value of back-up fighters.

So, by pursuing this strategy, the USSR probably has too high a garrison value based on combat strength. I suspect that Harry and the gang wouldn't be worried about it, though, since a human player will spot the strategy as soon as the crappy planes are piloted and the crappy units are bought. So once they see the strategy is in place, they will go from Paris to Madrid, take Gibraltar, and go for a 42 Barbarossa - now much stronger because the Soviets have wasted substantial numbers of build points on crappy units. Furthermore, the Soviet ability to do anything pre-war is greatly reduced.

Now, that would be the 'mainstream' view. (Disclaimer: Ok, Ok, this is my opinion of that view.) However, there ARE players that find defending a 41 Barbarossa is too hard, feel they are OK with a 42 Barbarossa, so for players like this, it may be a good strategy - and so adapting this strategy may be an exploit then becuase purchasing crappy untis for garrison value only should be (in my opinion) discouraged. Indeed, a reasonable rule would simply be to let Germany break the pact any time they want (do we think Hitler cared about diplomatic niceties?) in which case we just live with the fact that the Soviets will never use a forward defense strategy.

Now, would the COMPUTER AI be able to figure this out that once the USSR started to make these builds, they immediately work for a 42 Barb? Probably not. On the other hand, will the human player really need boosts against the computer AI's?

Fundamentally, I agree with Hakon and the crowd that this is a gamey tactic and shouldn't be allowed, so having the option stop it is a good idea; the garrison rules are made to be simple but I think this thread has shown that this similification can lead to unintended results. Indeed, I would vote that this rule should be in the standard board game rules for the reasons that they stated.

So for the record, I have no problem with the option.

However, I disagree strongly that it breaks the game, and I think this should be debated on the main WIFFE boards. I'm not scared of it as Germany, since Ihave confidence I would be able to 'spot' it in time, even though I favor a 41 Barbarossa. I just don't want people reading here think that this strategy is a game killer.

Good gaming,

Breunor