Taming Expansion of IJ Production

[Andy Mac]

Thats the US usage most other nations were a lot lower (although had other complexities) - Indian army was a fraction of that supply level but required a lot of different ration types.
 
I would need to recheck my sources but supply for an Indian Div was about c 60 tons a day although that increased dramatically after re mechanisation.
 
 
And was  

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Thats the US usage most other nations were a lot lower (although had other complexities) - Indian army was a fraction of that supply level but required a lot of different ration types.

I would need to recheck my sources but supply for an Indian Div was about c 60 tons a day although that increased dramatically after re mechanisation.


And was

This is very true!!! TM-E 30-480 estimated Japanese Maintenance Supply requirements as 10-30lbs per man per day of all types of supply (food, clothing, POL, construction material, ammunition etc)...US Army requirements were 67 lbs per man per day.

[spence]

The numbers are a bit hard to rationalize though I do not doubt their validity. In part, I imagine that it relates to the fact that the US Army expected its troops to be fighting thousands of miles from 'home' and part of the tons/man/day figure actually incorporates estimated tonnage to simply get the tons/man/day to the man on the day.

In contrast it is my understanding that the IJA official doctrine was to subsist the troops on 'local supply'. It worked well enough in China and allowed the Japanese to develop a supply chain organization devoted to providing mostly those items which the local economy did not or could not supply (and at the Battle of Khalkin Gol etc even those amounts were found to be insufficient for modern warfare needs). As a result the IJA supply organization was not prepared when it had to provide subsistence for the troops thousands of miles from home in locations which possessed no local economy on which to subsist the troops. Faced with requirements to provide (however many) pounds of ammo, POL, etc AND FOOD with an organization capablility to provide that many pounds of just ammo, POL, and etc it was forced to substitute food for ammo, POL and etc and ended up providing insufficient amounts of all of the above.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: herwin


Organising a unit meant that the unit had to be sustained, even if it was in garrison. It took 40 tons of supply per day to feed a division. Replacements would be needed for equipment, men and horses. Pilots had to be kept sharp, which means aircraft fueled/repaired/replaced. Ships had to be refitted/resupplied/refueled. Japan went to war because the peacetime costs of the army and navy were unsupportable. Use it or lose it.

Where are you getting the 40T figure?

Dunnighan and Nofi. 60T is probably better.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: spence

The numbers are a bit hard to rationalize ....

"Maintenance Supply" is the total of all supplies divided by man per day or month. When I refer to all supplies - I refer to typewriters, concrete, grease, aviation fuel, widgets, clipboards, forms, pencils, ink, radios, kitchen sinks, toilette paper, gasoline, food, medical supplies blah blah blah....not just the supply needed to subsist or fight.

[spence]

ORIGINAL: spence

The numbers are a bit hard to rationalize

wrong word...visualize is what I meant...knew what you meant

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: treespider

I imagine some of that is packaging...oh and I had a chance to check it was .244 tons...in Europe it was higher - .261 tons.

Does this figure include water?

And what's POL stand for?

[rjopel]

Water was usually able to be purified on site, especially at a fixed site.  It would be shipped in with the assault forces.
 
POL = Petroleum, Oil, Lubricants

[jwilkerson]

thanks rjopel ... you're JIT !!
[:D]

[witpqs]

Now you're just trying to get me to post again, but I already know JIT = Just In Time.

Doh! [:D]

[Knavey]

ORIGINAL: spence

More rough calculations....that 16 lbs of rations per man per day...I always thought the Navy had the good chow...geezum[;)]

It was pretty much 5 meals a day on a CVN when I was in...breakfast, lunch, dinner, midrats and a chili bar that had hotdogs and, yes, you guessed it, chili made from whatever meat that they had served 2-3 days before.

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
I know we have gotten a wee OT, but speaking of unit removals/withdrawls...are...Air Groups open to withdrawl?

Yes.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: treespider
I refer to typewriters, concrete, grease, aviation fuel, widgets, clipboards, forms, pencils, ink, radios, kitchen sinks, toilette paper, gasoline, food, medical supplies blah blah blah....not just the supply needed to subsist or fight.

Right, but the game burns POL as fuel (supply is burned for aircraft fuel) and construction supplies are burned when building bases and forts, so it is not appropriate to incorporate those items into daily consumption needs. Food and ammo would be what combat units use on a daily basis, and ammo only really gets used during combat.

Since units supply requirements double when in combat, I’d say food is the main concern for daily consumption with a premium of about 20%-40% added for other non-perishable requirements added to that total.

Jim

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: spence

The numbers are a bit hard to rationalize ....

"Maintenance Supply" is the total of all supplies divided by man per day or month. When I refer to all supplies - I refer to typewriters, concrete, grease, aviation fuel, widgets, clipboards, forms, pencils, ink, radios, kitchen sinks, toilette paper, gasoline, food, medical supplies blah blah blah....not just the supply needed to subsist or fight.

That's mostly food and fodder, with a little POL. A 25 t tank (50 tons of raw steel) could last for years in storage. If you drove it, a year or so. If you used it in quiet operations, perhaps 4 months. A truck (5 tons) was good for 12 months of quiet operations; an artillery piece (6 tons) for three years. You only use ammo if you shoot it off; fuel if you move (or shift supplies). Figure a truck cost 1 lb of POL per mile moved; a tank 6 times that much. A ton of ammo took 70 tons of coal to make.

An aircraft cost 300 lb of fuel plus the ammo per mission.

[Mike Scholl]

For comparison, while the IJN used less of almost all these things, they did use horses. And horses eat a lot of poundage whether they're being used or not.

[witpqs]

They also taste better than jeeps. [:D]

[spence]

For comparison, while the IJN used less of almost all these things, they did use horses. And horses eat a lot of poundage whether they're being used or not.

I remember that one of the main reasons for the motorization of the British Army after the First World War was that it was discovered that during that war the Army had shipped more tons of horse fodder into France than tons of ammunition. The same logic applied the US Army disbanding its 1st Cavalry (real cavalry) Division. I guess it kept the name but not the horses.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

They also taste better than jeeps. [:D]

H-m-m-m. The "eadibility factor" probably was a consideration in an army as poorly supplied as the IJA.

[witpqs]

In the Grand Armies withdrawal from Moscow, it was so bitterly cold (it was the Little Ice Age, after all) that Napoleon's starving soldiers walking beside horses were able to tear of strips of frozen flesh to eat without the horses noticing. The cold froze the wound and stopped the bleeding at once.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: treespider
I refer to typewriters, concrete, grease, aviation fuel, widgets, clipboards, forms, pencils, ink, radios, kitchen sinks, toilette paper, gasoline, food, medical supplies blah blah blah....not just the supply needed to subsist or fight.

Right, but the game burns POL as fuel (supply is burned for aircraft fuel) and construction supplies are burned when building bases and forts, so it is not appropriate to incorporate those items into daily consumption needs. Food and ammo would be what combat units use on a daily basis, and ammo only really gets used during combat.

Since units supply requirements double when in combat, I’d say food is the main concern for daily consumption with a premium of about 20%-40% added for other non-perishable requirements added to that total.

Jim

Not exactly - in game - supply points represent POL for everything except ship fuel which is represented as fuel points.


I have a fairly good breakdown of supply requirements by Classification.