"Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

[Panama]

ORIGINAL: Telumar

Why not to set it to not reconstitute..? [:D]

If they get destroyed before they are replaced by the newer type you don't get them back and any equipment left is gone. I thought the idea was to try and recover any equipment they still had when it was time to withdraw them? Otherwise, yeah, why bother to reconstitute them.

[BigDuke66]

Why is it gone? Any equipment that survives if the unit gets destroyed goes to the pool and will fill up the other units.

[samba_liten]

Flak.
The search continues. Ive been looking at ww2day by day, and have found the following AA units for June 22nd. It is probable that some were re-assigned before the scenario starts, but this is a start i guess. This is just copy and paste from the site mentioned. Any corps/Armies omitted did not have any AA units mentioned.

A.G South
Fla-Kp.2./46 (Heer)

11th Army:
Fla-Btl.22, Fla-Kp.1./47(Heer)
Flak-Rgts.Stb.18, Flak-Abt.(gem.) I./14, I./43, I./64 (LW)

17th Army:
Fla-Kp.2/66, H.Flak-Abt.275(gem) ,277 (8,8cm)(Heer)
Flak-Rgt.Stb.42, Flak-Abt.I./37, II./24, I.?/61(LW)

XXXXIX.Geb. Corps
Fla-Kp.6./48 (Heer)

IV. Corps
Fla-Kp.1./48 (Heer)

6th Army
Fla-Kp.5./52, H.Flak-Abt.278 (8,8) (Heer)
Flak.Rgt.Stb.91, gem.Flak-Abt. I./8, I./9, II./241 (LW)

Pz. Gruppe 1
Fla-Kp.4./31, 5./59 (Heer)
lei.Flak.Abt.86 (9.Pz.)(LW???)
Flak-Rgt.Stb.6 Gen.G., lei.Flak-Abt.IV./Gen.G. 93, gem.Flak-Abt. I./Gen.G., II./43, I./7, II./26 (Flakkorps II)

XXXXVIII. (mot)
Fla-Kp.5./46 (Heer)
Flak-Abt.71 (11.Pz.)(LW???)

XXIX.
Fla-Kp.2./48(Heer)

III.(mot)
Fla-Btl.603

XVII.
Fla-Kp.4./47 (Heer)

4th Army
H.Flak-Abt.274 (8,8), 276 (8,8)(Heer)
Flak-Rgt.Stb.153, gem.Flak-Abt. II./14, I./24, I./26, I./231, I./704 (LW)

A.G. Mitte


Panzergruppe 2
Fla-Btl.602, le.Flak-Abt.94 (Heer)
Flak-Rgt.Stb.101, 104, lei.Flak.Abt.77, 91, gem.Flak-Abt.I./12, I./22, I./11, II./11, (Flakkorps I)

XII.
Fla-Btl.610, Fla-Kp.3./31, (Heer)

XXXXIII.
Fla-Kp.4./48(Heer)

IX.
Fla-Kp.6./55(Heer)

9th Army
H.Flak-Abt.271 (8,8), 273 (gem.), (Heer)
Flak-Rgt.Stb.125, gem.Flak-Abt.I./Lehr, II./4, I./52, I./401, I./701(LW)

VII.
Fla-Kp.6./46(Heer)

VIII.
Fla-Kp.5./48, 3./66(HEer)

Panzergruppe 3
Flak-Rgt.Stb.148, 1 Bttr. von I./36(LW)

LVII(mot.)
lei.Flak.Abt.75 (12.Pz.), 85 (18.Pz.), gem.Flak-Abt.I./29(LW)

XXXIX.(mot)
lei.Flak-Abt.74 (20.Pz.), 84 (7.Pz.), gem.Flak-Abt.I./36 (ohne 1 Bttr.)(LW)

VI.
Fla-Kp.1./46, 6./47 (Heer)

A.G. Nord

16th Army
Fla-Kp. 4./55, 4./59; Heeres-Flak-Abt. 280 (gem.)(Heer)
Flak-Rgt.Stb.151; Flak-Abt. gem. I./13, I./291; I./411(LW)

Panzergruppe 4
Flak-Rgt.Stb.133(LW)

LVI.(mot)
lei.Flak-Abt.92 (8.Pz.); Flak.Abt.gem. II./23(LW)

XXXXI.(mot)
Fla-Btl.601(Heer)
lei.Flak-Abt. 83 (1.Pz.), II./411 (6.Pz.); Flak-Abt.gem.I./3(LW)

18th Army
Fla-Btl. 604 (1 Kp.); Fla-Kp. 1./55, H.Flak-Abt.272 (gem)(Heer)
Flak-Rgt.Stb. 164; gem.Flak-Abt. II./36, I./51; I./111(LW)

I.
Fla-Btl. 604 (ohne 1 Kp.)(Heer)

XXVI.
Fla-Kp. 6./52(Heer)

[Panama]

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Why is it gone? Any equipment that survives if the unit gets destroyed goes to the pool and will fill up the other units.

But the unit itself is gone. No longer available until it's replacement comes onboard. If that's not a problem, fine.

Look, if it doesn't matter that the unit is perma-killed until the new version comes in, no problem, don't reconstitute it.

If the unit being perma-killed is a bad thing you have to reconstitute it.

If you have to reconstitute it, then disband it to recover equipment and don't want it coming back you'll have to subsequently also give it a withdrawal event.

These are simply suggestions.

[briantopp]

ORIGINAL: Panama

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Why is it gone? Any equipment that survives if the unit gets destroyed goes to the pool and will fill up the other units.

But the unit itself is gone. No longer available until it's replacement comes onboard. If that's not a problem, fine.

Look, if it doesn't matter that the unit is perma-killed until the new version comes in, no problem, don't reconstitute it.

If the unit being perma-killed is a bad thing you have to reconstitute it.

If you have to reconstitute it, then disband it to recover equipment and don't want it coming back you'll have to subsequently also give it a withdrawal event.

These are simply suggestions.

I think the simple solution is to impute "old" equipment in the new unit.

The panzer mark II units have 20 pzIIIh's -- a generous estimate of how many 1941 runners could have been repaired or otherwise scratched up and reinserted into the units.

In other words, we don't need the equipment in the old units to be put back into the pool because they are written into the new TO&E -- putting them back into the pool would double-count them

[BigDuke66]

ORIGINAL: briantopp


I think the simple solution is to impute "old" equipment in the new unit.

The panzer mark II units have 20 pzIIIh's -- a generous estimate of how many 1941 runners could have been repaired or otherwise scratched up and reinserted into the units.

In other words, we don't need the equipment in the old units to be put back into the pool because they are written into the new TO&E -- putting them back into the pool would double-count them

That's why I recommended to put the new units into the game empty. I know the game could run into trouble when the German player doesn't watch for is tank units and the Russian players goes out and hunts them down but usually the German side should just loose some Abteilungen what makes the rest stronger so no real trouble here.


Locking at the old and new units it looks to me like the new ones should be tweaked a bit in the direction of the Spring 1943 time.
Just look at these numbers:


Now look at the scenario and see that:
Ingame Tank = Real tank
Pz IIIH = Panzer III(5cm L/42)
Pz IIIJ & Pz IIIL = Panzer III(5cm L/60)
Pz IVD, Pz IVE & Pz IVF1 = Panzer IV(7,5cm L/24)
Pz IVF2 = Panzer IV(7,5cm L/43)

Letting aside the more unusual tank types the old units have:
6 Pz I
22 Pz IIF
36 Pz IIIH
20 Pz IIIJ
10 Pz IVE
5 Pz IVF1
5 Pz IVF2

And the new:
6 Pz I
22 Pz IIF
20(-16) Pz IIIH
40(+20) Pz IIIJ
10(New) Pz IIIL
10 Pz IVE
5 Pz IVF1
5 Pz IVF2

What I miss is the shift in Panzer IV from the short to the long version, see were it ends in July 1943 and the average is already in November 1942 higher than what the scenario allows.
Also the latest Panzer IIIN should be in to take the place of the short Panzer IV as they should be lowered too as the average is already down to 10 per division by summer 1942 and half's again till November 1942.
And maybe the Pz IIIJ & Pz IIIL should also be closer.

Not sure how good the production numbers are but even they suggest some changes:
Production for the scenario:
Pz 38(t)=216
Pz 35(t)=54
Pz I=162
Pz IIF=2436
Pz II(Flame)=0
Pz IIIH=810
Pz IIIJ=1331
Pz IIIL=1040
Pz III(Flame)=0
Pz IVD=0
Pz IVE=847
Pz IVF1=216
Pz IVF2=1210

Alone the Production of the Pz IVF2 is so high that it can fill a complete PzD every turn because there are only 5 allowed, at least by November 1942 it looks wrong not to speak how it would look in early 1943.
And what about the Pz IV getting now replacement until April 1942, won't they dry out?

[briantopp]

So, staying roughly in the paradigm we're in (because this has to land, sometime), the current "wave II" pz battalion looks like this:

pz I 6
pzII 22
pzIIIh 20 [no production i.e. will decline]
pzIIIj 20/40 [production begins]
pzIIIL 0/10 (production begins later]
pzIVe 10 [no production will decline]
pzIVf1 0/5 [production begins]
pzIVf2 0/5 [production begins later]

So looking at those production numbers, it seems the coase fault is that the IVf2 are under-represented in the back third of the game. That is a good problem to fix because the Axis can use all the help they can get by them they are getting steamrollered in the current build. So how about this:

pzI 6
pzII 22
pzIIIh 20
pzIIIj 20/40 [production starts April 42 and ends October 42]
pzIIIL /0/10
pzIVe 10
pzIVf1 0/5 [production starts april 42 and ends november 42]
pzIVf2 0/30 [production start november 42]

This would then give us three basic transitions in terms of the "core runner": from IIIh to IIIj in april 42 in a planned re-equipment during a mud ceasefire, and from IIIj to IVf2 feathering in starting in November 42. There is a risk that we would have historically over-equipped units (a "full" unit would have 40 IIIjs and 30 IVf2s by January 43 or so). But this could only happen if the Germans are taking no casualties since there is no new IIIj supply -- that is most unlikely to happen. You could make it happen by keeping the unit in reserve and letting it build up. I say a German player who can do this in the winter of 1943 (which implies a remarkably well-preserved infantry) in this scenario deserves to get such a unit.

[briantopp]

Here is today's build of this thing. I have:

- hunted down more blank news events (boy, there were a lot of them)
- experimented with the IIIh-IIIj-IVf2 panzer equipment transition above to see how it playtests
- assigned more flak units at army and corps level and given them some 88s
- tinkered with the southern stretch of the "Axis stop line"
- updated scenario briefing

Update:

Never mind: dozens and dozens of newly broken events. Merde. God, to think of the time I've spent labouriously fixing and refixing and rerefixing events because they don't remain the same when other events or OOB is edited. Brutal. I can't imagine what is being achieved by having the events "slide" like this. I give up (for today).

[sPzAbt653]

hunted down more blank news events

Apparently, if it doesn't say 'no news' in the editor, then there is news, but its blank/empty news. Quite a pickle.

A little nit-pickery - 246-infantrie of 39th corps arrives on turn 88, but a couple sources report that it arrived 2-42, around turn 40?

[briantopp]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

hunted down more blank news events

Apparently, if it doesn't say 'no news' in the editor, then there is news, but its blank/empty news. Quite a pickle.

A little nit-pickery - 246-infantrie of 39th corps arrives on turn 88, but a couple sources report that it arrived 2-42, around turn 40?

Righto got it

[sPzAbt653]

...events "slide" like this.

Its something I've griped about in the past, if you click in part of the empty area of the event box, it automatically duplicates that event and moves all the rest down the line. It makes editing very nerve racking, trying to make sure you only click the mouse in certain areas. [:@]

[briantopp]

Once more with feeling: the current build of this scenario.

[BigDuke66]

Thanks for mentioning me in your readme, was & is a pleasure to help.

An that's why we right away start with some minor stuff:
-II/27-panzer,19-panzer AGC has already 5 PzKpfw IVF2 and 5 PzKpfw IVF1 at the start of the scenario.
-III/6-panzer,3-panzer 24pzC has already 3 PzKpfw IVF2 at the start of the scenario.

[sPzAbt653]

Another minor thing - I'm still playing 1.59, so don't know if this has been fixed, but the late versions of the 8th Pz Div's tank battalions arrive if the TO to activate the 8th hasn't been picked. I think the arrival event can be disabled on turn 1, and then enabled if the TO is picked, I think.

[briantopp]

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Thanks for mentioning me in your readme, was & is a pleasure to help.

An that's why we right away start with some minor stuff:
-II/27-panzer,19-panzer AGC has already 5 PzKpfw IVF2 and 5 PzKpfw IVF1 at the start of the scenario.
-III/6-panzer,3-panzer 24pzC has already 3 PzKpfw IVF2 at the start of the scenario.

Excellent catches thank you -- got 'em. Would you like your real name in there btw? Happy to include it is so (just let me know what it is) and I offer the same to any other contributors (you know who you are).

[briantopp]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Another minor thing - I'm still playing 1.59, so don't know if this has been fixed, but the late versions of the 8th Pz Div's tank battalions arrive if the TO to activate the 8th hasn't been picked. I think the arrival event can be disabled on turn 1, and then enabled if the TO is picked, I think.

Hmm: a tricky problem.

Thinking aloud:

The mark II battalions are part of the division OOB, with a delayed arrival. That is happening through a hardwired arrival time in the deployment editor, not the event editor. I don't think the event editor can reach into the deployment editor and disable an arrival.

So:

(1) One option might be to set up a conditional withdrawal order. But the "condition" is an event that does NOT happen -- the theatre event deploying the division is not triggered, so the mark II battalions should not arrive. Nothing in the event editor allows this.

(2) The next possibility would be to make the arrival of the mark II battalions conditional on the prior triggering of the theatre event (so: arrive say 30 turns after the division is deployed). But that is not optimal either, because it would permit the arrival of the mark II units too early or too late.

(3) So the third possibility would be to revisit the TO&Es of the panzer units and to have all the equipment transitions occur within the same unit. That would require something like this:

pz I 6/6
pz II 22/22

pzIIIh 35/35 (stops March 42)
pzIIIj 0/40 (starts April 42, stops october 42)
pzIIIl 0/10 (starts november 42)

pzIVe 10/10
pzIVf1 0/5 (starts April 42, ends october 42)
pzIVf2 0/30 (starts november 42)

158 tanks in one battalion, if the unit is hoarded in the rear or otherwise underused. Maybe that's ok in one division -- if the German can keep the unit out of battle and is deliberately hoarding it perhaps he has simply made a conscious decision to build a super-stuffed monster unit for some purpose.

[Telumar]

Wow - i'm in the credits.. what for?

[briantopp]

ORIGINAL: Telumar

Wow - i'm in the credits.. what for?

just grateful for the comments here. i can take you out if you'd like.

[sPzAbt653]

a tricky problem.

I set up these events and ran them in a test scenario. To speed things up I originally used turn 4 instead of turn 54. The red circled event 24 needs to be changed to whatever event the TO for the 8th triggers. In the test, if the TO was chosen before turn 4, the Mark II's didn't arrive until turn 4. When the TO was chosen on turn 6, the Mark II's arrived on turn 7. So it seems that if it were set up as shown for turn 54, with the Mark II's set to arrive by event 49, then it should work to get the desired effect.

[Oberst_Klink]

Same here! Thanks from the whole crew of STALAG 13!

Oh, I miss the days I used to create Age of Rifles scenarios and my one and only TOAW one, can't find it anymore. Anybody, by any chance, got State Farm 79? Done that one in 1998, using SSG's scenartio from Panzer Battles as "reference"...