1.04.10 Fulkerson vs KLilly

[larryfulkerson]

Here's the current OOB:

[larryfulkerson]

The ground losses are mounting for the Soviet side:

[larryfulkerson]

Here's a shot of the current state of Soviet production:

[larryfulkerson]

The Air losses are mounting since I've been pounding his airfields at almost every opportunity:

[larryfulkerson]

Here's the pocket after my Soviet dudes have moved. This is just phase 1 of the Soviet plan to cut off the Axis units forming this pocket.
I managed to isolate the Axis dude nearest Rostov. He's going to be able to re-establish some supply to him in his turn but at least he
knows I'm serious now. There's still no reserves to rail in to stave off the Axis drive to the east so I'm pseudo-screwed that way but I have
some rifle divisions I built last turn that will be unfrozen and able to move next turn so that's something I can use somewhere.

[DTurtle]

Larry, I think the biggest mistake you are making - in all your games - is thinking you can stop the Axis player from breaking through your front lines. This is simply not the case.

The Axis player can choose any one (or two) points of your front and bust through them. The key thing is what happens afterwards.

You currently have pretty much all your troops on the front lines - maybe one or two hexes behind in a carpet. What this means, is that your opponent can take troops far from your front line and hit your first line of defense. Then troops from a bit nearer can come in and hit your second layer of the carpet. Then troops from close by can come in and hit your third layer of the carpet. Only after that will the troops on the front line mop up the rest of the defenders and use up the rest of their movement points moving unhindered through your lines.

What you want to do instead is to build multiple lines of defense - with space in between. That way, the only enemy troops that can hit your second line of defense are the ones that started at your front lines. When they beat through that line, they will still face your third (and fourth) line and not be able to freely move through your empty backyard.

The screenshot in this post of TulliusDetritus' AAR against 2ndACR shows what that would look like.

Don't build a carpet, instead build a series of lines. Doing this will also free up a lot of troops that can be thrown in the path of your opponent's advance.

[76mm]

I agree that you have too many troops on the front line, and none in reserve, but I don't think that the answer is multiple paper-thin lines, for a variety of reasons. But you absolutely need some armies in reserve that you can use to reopen pockets and threaten the flanks of his breakthroughs.

[EDIT] And don't forget that you can evac your troops in that pocket via the ports. I would collapse the pocket closer to the coast and start doing so before he takes all of the Black Sea ports, at which point you'll be screwed. I would also divert more troops to holding the Crimea.

[TulliusDetritus]

The truth is I built these lines because er... the Soviets did that (they fortified many places many kilometers behind their front-line) [:D]

76mm, you see the glass half empty, I see it half full. Read the map. I fortify hexes mostly behind rivers. To me a fort level 2 is far better than a fort level er... zero [8D] IF I have to retreat I will have fortified hexes behind rivers. You will NOT [;)] That might not stop the fascists, but for sure it should slow them down.

I rely on:

a) concentration of forces (in 1942 this means Stavka Reserve Armies: I have 12)
and if that does not work and the Germans keep advancing:
b) I will have a more or less decent fortified line. This should buy me some time to concentrate AGAIN my forces, etc. etc. Rinse and repeat.

As I see it, that's better than nothing (non fortified hexes in the first place that is).

[larryfulkerson]

Here's what the pocket looks like before any Soviet movement in T61:

[randallw]

The thing about freshly ordered units is that the experience level will be awful; depending on them to be able to plug a gap right after they've drawn enough men/equipment after the initial build order is probably expecting too much.  Just look at it, it's like a 25 or 30 experience rating for most of the elements.  Stick that in battle immediately and it'll be on it's way to an early losing streak.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

The truth is I built these lines because er... the Soviets did that (they fortified many places many kilometers behind their front-line) [:D]

Well, you repeat this at about every opportunity, but the fact that the Sovs were digging in far behind the front does not necessarily mean that they were creating continuous fortified defensive lines five hundred kilometers behind the front, they were probably creating strongpoints in key locatinos, and yes, fortifying riverlines. But moreover, I don't really care what the Sovs did in the war, because this game is not RL, and I am going to do what I think is most likely to win the game.

In my view, thin lines are easily penetrated, with large portions of the line then subject to encirclement. Moreover, your units in your second, third, and fourth (or whatever) belts are essentially serving no useful purpose, and your opponent will simply aim his spearheads to gaps between your lines. By either picking the gaps or blowing through a weakpoint, a good opponent will simply force you to abandon all of your other nice fortified lines by threatening encirclement.

You can of course do what you want, but you're not going to convince me that multiple paper-thin lines are a good overall strategy. I do use them in some locations, particularly around Moscow, and I will also generally try to dig in along a riverline to my rear if it is in a good position. But that's about all that I see as useful.

[Panama]

"You currently have pretty much all your troops on the front lines - maybe one or two hexes behind in a carpet. What this means, is that your opponent can take troops far from your front line and hit your first line of defense. Then troops from a bit nearer can come in and hit your second layer of the carpet. Then troops from close by can come in and hit your third layer of the carpet. Only after that will the troops on the front line mop up the rest of the defenders and use up the rest of their movement points moving unhindered through your lines"

And this is what happens when you throw time and space out the window Larry. You are thinking in terms of other wargames where things are more reasonable. If you've played some of the North African games think in terms of the huge movements Rommel made around the British flanks. This is what is possible now on the East Front with this system. To counter you need lots of depth. Good reserves. A willingness to throw units into gaps of advancing units to cut supplies. I think you are playing the same you would in FitE but the mechanics are far different than TOAW.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

The truth is I built these lines because er... the Soviets did that (they fortified many places many kilometers behind their front-line) [:D]

Well, you repeat this at about every opportunity, but the fact that the Sovs were digging in far behind the front does not necessarily mean that they were creating continuous fortified defensive lines five hundred kilometers behind the front, they were probably creating strongpoints in key locatinos, and yes, fortifying riverlines. But moreover, I don't really care what the Sovs did in the war, because this game is not RL, and I am going to do what I think is most likely to win the game.

In my view, thin lines are easily penetrated, with large portions of the line then subject to encirclement. Moreover, your units in your second, third, and fourth (or whatever) belts are essentially serving no useful purpose, and your opponent will simply aim his spearheads to gaps between your lines. By either picking the gaps or blowing through a weakpoint, a good opponent will simply force you to abandon all of your other nice fortified lines by threatening encirclement.

You can of course do what you want, but you're not going to convince me that multiple paper-thin lines are a good overall strategy. I do use them in some locations, particularly around Moscow, and I will also generally try to dig in along a riverline to my rear if it is in a good position. But that's about all that I see as useful.

Well, it is an objective fact that I will have fortified hexes. I would say it's another objective fact that a fort level 2 is better than no fortified hex at all [:)] I too have been thinking that maybe they will be useless... But it's not what you're thinking. Maybe my opponent will NEVER get to these fortified positions behind my rear in the first place [;)]

BUT I still have to be prudent. I have to think about the worst scenario... And that's when nicely fortified places ready to be used might make some sense and a difference... As opposed to retreating with NO forts at all... It's another objective fact that my retreating troops would certainly appreciate these forts methinks.

As for your panzers maneuvering, avoiding these places, etc., this means a) they would lose some turn/s to change the direction of the attack and b) you are forcing the panzers to go where YOU want (ergo, concentrating your forces is easier). Either way, these fortified positions are slowing them down. And 1942 is still a race against the clock. Tick tock tick tock...

I am not trying to convince anyone by the way. Every player should choose his own strategy [:)]

And believe me, in 1943 you will be 100% imitating Soviet strategy... You better do that: mega offensive concentrations in x area etc. etc.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
As for your panzers maneuvering, avoiding these places, etc., this means a) they would lose some turn/s to change the direction of the attack and b) you are forcing the panzers to go where YOU want (ergo, concentrating your forces is easier). Either way, these fortified positions are slowing them down. And 1942 is still a race against the clock. Tick tock tick tock...

In my view, the number one priority for the Sovs in 1942 is to avoid having large numbers of troops pocketed. Industry should have already been evacced. Cities don't really matter. So the Germans probably don't really have firm geographic objectives, all that really matters to them is pocketing a bunch of your units, whether in a few large pockets or many small pockets. If the Germans can pocket enough troops in 1942, they can really slow down the Sovs, even win. I don't think that multiple thin lines is the best way to keep troops from being pocketed.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
As for your panzers maneuvering, avoiding these places, etc., this means a) they would lose some turn/s to change the direction of the attack and b) you are forcing the panzers to go where YOU want (ergo, concentrating your forces is easier). Either way, these fortified positions are slowing them down. And 1942 is still a race against the clock. Tick tock tick tock...

In my view, the number one priority for the Sovs in 1942 is to avoid having large numbers of troops pocketed. Industry should have already been evacced. Cities don't really matter. So the Germans probably don't really have firm geographic objectives, all that really matters to them is pocketing a bunch of your units, whether in a few large pockets or many small pockets. If the Germans can pocket enough troops in 1942, they can really slow down the Sovs, even win. I don't think that multiple thin lines is the best way to keep troops from being pocketed.

I agree, that should be the german objective (destroying the red Army). You only see "thin lines"? I see fortified positions (and that's what you should be seeing). Grabbing geographical places or trying to pocket your forces, these fortified places will do exactly the same job: slow the enemy down.

[DTurtle]

One other advantage of multiple lines is that it lessens the possibility that you leave gigantic weak spots in your lines (because of bulges, slow penetrations that you react too slowly to, etc).

If you look at post 251 and 255 (the turn before the breakthrough and the breakthrough) you can see that Larry had a huge weak spot at that point. Where he had other points of the front defended 6 hexes deep with up to 10 units in those hexes, at the breakthrough point he only had a carpet 2-3 hexes deep with 3-5 units in those hexes. KLilly found this weak spot, concentrated his forces there and completely blasted through those lines.

If Larry instead had defended with multiple lines, then some of the units tasked with defending to the north-west of the breakthrough point would have been in the way and helped in the defense.

And the breakthrough point wasn't the only weak spot. Another one is NW of Tula, another WSW of Tula, W of Yaroslavl, and there are more.

The point is that a carpet feels safe, but it lulls one into a false sense of security and actually puts a lot more weak spots into your lines than you would think.

Multiple lines can of course be broken, and some of your units can (and probably will) be surrounded. However, this makes the fight more mobile, leaves your own troops in prime position to counterattack enemy forces in unfortified hexes, pretty much removes the danger of grand encirclements that kill entire fronts (or three), and makes the game more fun for both sides.

Now, I will freely admit that none of this is based on my own experience, as I haven't played any PBEM grand campaigns (and won't until I get back from my month-long vacation in the US in the middle of August), but instead based on what I have seen in the various AARs here in the forum. But obviously I think that there is some validity to this argument

[76mm]

DTurtle, I think that your comments are a powerful argument not for multiple lines, but for being much quicker to shorten your lines and pull back from potential salients.

I should also note that I don't think that the carpet is a very good defensive architecture--anyone reading my AAR can see why--I just think that it is the least bad of several poor alternatives. And it is critical, whether you rely on carpet or multiple lines, to have powerful reserve armies in the rear to react to breakthroughs and potential breakthroughs.

[larryfulkerson]

Here's what the pocket looks like in T62 before any Soviet movement

[larryfulkerson]

Here's what the pocket looks like in T63 before any Soviet movement:

[Klydon]

Man, too bad you can't launch a relief drive from the NE towards the Italians. It looks like you have the pocket neck fairly secure by Rostov (goodluck for the German mech trying to push the Russian infantry out of the swamp).

Looks like he is lining up to pinch the base of the salient off. He knows he has some issues there.