Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR)

STEF78 · Post by **STEF78** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:07 pm

Turn 118

My fighters are in good shape. As usual, in late war turns, it's the best part of the german army

charlie0311 · Post by **charlie0311** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:17 pm

Hi all,

On the subject of the German AF. Why not disband the groups with only 4 planes? And, as Sov, why not bomb the Luftwaffe out of existence?

Oshawott · Post by **Oshawott** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:41 pm

And, as Sov, why not bomb the Luftwaffe out of existence?

Because it's a flaw of the game and totally unnecessary. Just because you can do something in this game doesn't mean you should do it. Just look at the paratroopers and the abuse of it. Yes, I could probably do 100 airbase attacks every turn but would it be a fun game?

Did the Russians actually conduct any large scale airbase attacks during WW2? Does anyone know?

STEF78 · Post by **STEF78** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:49 pm

ORIGINAL: Oshawott

And, as Sov, why not bomb the Luftwaffe out of existence?

Because it's a flaw of the game and totally unnecessary. Just because you can do something in this game doesn't mean you should do it. Just look at the paratroopers and the abuse of it. Yes, I could probably do 100 airbase attacks every turn but would it be a fun game?

Did the Russians actually conduct any large scale airbase attacks during WW2? Does anyone know?

Thanks for the fair play

STEF78 · Post by **STEF78** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:51 pm

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

On the subject of the German AF. Why not disband the groups with only 4 planes?

Because I have plenty of BF109G6 in my pool and want to use it.

loki100 · Post by **loki100** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:10 pm

ORIGINAL: Oshawott

And, as Sov, why not bomb the Luftwaffe out of existence?

Because it's a flaw of the game and totally unnecessary. Just because you can do something in this game doesn't mean you should do it. Just look at the paratroopers and the abuse of it. Yes, I could probably do 100 airbase attacks every turn but would it be a fun game?

Did the Russians actually conduct any large scale airbase attacks during WW2? Does anyone know?

agree, its one problem with part of this community who decide that just because you can do something you should.

To answer the question, not as a matter of course. The full title of the Soviet airforce in this era was RKKA:VVS, in other words the air arm of the Red Army, so doctrinally its job was to support Red Army operations by gaining air superiority and ground attacks. There are instances when the Soviets hit the German airfields, pre-Kursk is one, but they rarely stuck to it.

Partly as Axis AA was better than WiTE represents things, partly as it played into the hands of the area where the Luftwaffe had superiority till the Yak3/late P40s/47s became widely deployed. But by 1944, they could stop the Luftwaffe intervening by having fighter superiority in the area of ground operations.

On occasion, the Soviets went to great effort to disguise the locations of their air bases (again the relative set piece of Kursk is an instance) which may indicate that this was a problem they faced - not sure if the reason was doctrinal (ie it was something the Germans put effort into) or capacity?

charlie0311 · Post by **charlie0311** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:15 pm

Thx guys, totally agree with concept of fair play. About all I can say regarding history of the air war is that lots of the Luftwaffe was withdrawn from the East to try to protect German cities from the allies. I was thinking, in game terms, that destroying the Luftwaffe might be necessary to take Berlin.
Stef, wouldn't those BF109G6 go to other air groups as the number of planes in the pools dictated.

STEF78 · Post by **STEF78** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:38 pm

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

Stef, wouldn't those BF109G6 go to other air groups as the number of planes in the pools dictated.

Only some types of aircraft can be used as FB: FW190, Me410, Me210...

BF109 cannot be used in all air groups, they are only available for pure fighters groups.

So sad!

Flaviusx · Post by **Flaviusx** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:51 pm

ORIGINAL: Oshawott

And, as Sov, why not bomb the Luftwaffe out of existence?

Because it's a flaw of the game and totally unnecessary. Just because you can do something in this game doesn't mean you should do it. Just look at the paratroopers and the abuse of it. Yes, I could probably do 100 airbase attacks every turn but would it be a fun game?

Did the Russians actually conduct any large scale airbase attacks during WW2? Does anyone know?

This is why I love you, Oshawott. (In a platonic way.)

Some things are just too stupid to justify or do.

As for how the Red Air Force beat the Luftwaffe, my general sense is that of gradual attrition combined with transfers by the Germans to other theaters. An effect that can be achieved easily enough by avoiding the cheese, as you say.

STEF78 · Post by **STEF78** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:57 pm

Turn 119, 23th september 1943

Bad turn, soviet momentum east of Minsk is strong. 2 failed counterattacks including the one in the South due to the reserve activation.

North of Kiev, Oshawott advance west => I give space in the Pripyat

STEF78 · Post by **STEF78** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:54 pm

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

This is why I love you, Oshawott. (In a platonic way.)

First love story in WITE!

As for how the Red Air Force beat the Luftwaffe, my general sense is that of gradual attrition combined with transfers by the Germans to other theaters. An effect that can be achieved easily enough by avoiding the cheese, as you say.

I've played 4 games past summer 1943 as GHC (including this one) and I've always got a strong Luftwaffe (at least for fighters).

How do you manage to weaken the german fighters?

Flaviusx · Post by **Flaviusx** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:10 pm

Without cheese? Not that easy, but also maybe not that important. As long as the Red Air Force gets its missions and bombers through, that's good enough. And it's not that hard to grind up Luftwaffe bombers rendering the Luftwaffe ineffective for anything offensive.

loki100 · Post by **loki100** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:20 pm

ORIGINAL: STEF78

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

This is why I love you, Oshawott. (In a platonic way.)
First love story in WITE!

As for how the Red Air Force beat the Luftwaffe, my general sense is that of gradual attrition combined with transfers by the Germans to other theaters. An effect that can be achieved easily enough by avoiding the cheese, as you say.
I've played 4 games past summer 1943 as GHC (including this one) and I've always got a strong Luftwaffe (at least for fighters).

How do you manage to weaken the german fighters?

well I'd agree with the praise, its great to see two players who understand the game system, putting together an excellent AAR and avoiding needless cheese.

My feeling is the Soviets never did really master the German fighters to be honest. Post Kursk, they made life very difficult for the German bombers to the extent that except when the Soviet spearheads got really too far (end Bagration, the period in late 43 after they broke out of the Kiev sector), then Luftwaffe ground support became pretty rare (again I guess transfers to other fronts contributed here). Its noticeable that up to Kursk, the Soviets still feared the Ju-87s, after that they seem to stop mentioning them as a significant force on the battlefield.

Crudely, the Soviets sought to stop the Germans achieving air superiority and ensuring Soviet bombers got to their targets. It didn't really matter if this was done simply by tieing up the axis fighters in a mass of Soviet fighters or actually winning the air battles. I've read that the Yak-3 was the game changer in this respect (n that losses started to even out), but by the time it appeared in any numbers, the German airforce in the east was ground down in any case.

Oshawott · Post by **Oshawott** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:12 pm

First love story in WITE!

PLATONIC! HE SAID PLATONIC! [:D]

Flaviusx · Post by **Flaviusx** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:26 pm

To clear up any possible misunderstanding: platonique.

STEF78 · Post by **STEF78** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:18 am

No doubt about the translation. French and English languages have a lot of common roots for the words:
poetic = poétique
dramatic = dramatique...

some times it doesn't work:

terrific = énorme

and of course, we have a different view on certain subjects

Take French leave = filer à l'anglaise (flee like a british)
English channel = la manche (the sleeve)

A linguistic bracket in the middle of pieces of shrapnel! [;)]

Flaviusx · Post by **Flaviusx** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:12 am

It's been far too long since my high school French, alas.

But being bilingual in Spanish and English helps. It's not hard to pick up another romance language once you know one of them. If you dropped me in France for a year or so I think I could get by.

STEF78 · Post by **STEF78** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:49 pm

Turn 120, 30th september 1943

Back to reality... 3 turns before mud

North

Momentum is slowering in this area. Not sure that a 3/1 loss ratio for AFV is enough.

South

Kiev's salliant becomes more and more dangerous. I decide to hold the city.

caliJP · Post by **caliJP** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:05 pm

STEF, I have to echo previous comments, I think you did a great job north of the Pripiet marshes to slow down Oshawott. Of course the terrain is favorable, but still your couple of lines of trench diggers behind the front line are doing wonders. That's the way to do it. You can slowly roll back to Berlin 1 hex per turn that way, probably even a little less during blizzard which makes a dent in the soviet units' MPs.
In the south, it is harder. You may need to make use of some FZs to prepare some defense lines?

smokindave34 · Post by **smokindave34** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:40 pm

I agree with others here Stef, in that you are doing an outstanding job holding back the Russian bear. I think you will find that the upcoming snow/blizzard weather turns will make your situation even more difficult - your ability to dig forts will be reduced dramatically making it easier for Oshawott to force you into open terrain. You may want to pick a line on the map where you expect to be come summer '44 and start building forts there as soon as the snow hits. Give ground slowly during the winter until you reach your summer fall back line. If you find yourself in the summer of '44 with no defensive lines already established it will be tough to prevent the encirclements Oshawott will certainly be going for. Thanks for the excellent AAR!