smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG

[erikbengtsson]

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

I agree deeply with Hyla above.

In more than one game I quickly faced Soviets that were super prepared in CPP (Which as force multiplier benefits them a lot due to many units - and in the way CPP are spent).
The '41 WAll of Soviets was already amazing - and at the first battering Soviets take they can just slip slightly away, maybe sacrifice 1-2 hexes of division(s) and reshape a sturdy line.
Germans wasted their CPP to achieve that little.

Perhaps the Soviet player should not be able to have assault HQ's until December 41. And perhaps it should be restricted during spring and summer of 42 too?

[quantas]

Thanks a lot for this AAR. I enjoyed it and learned a lot while reading your posts and ideas. [&o]

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: quantas

Thanks a lot for this AAR. I enjoyed it and learned a lot while reading your posts and ideas. [&o]

You're very welcome. I'm sure you will find even more entertainment in our game while I try to avoid an early death as the Axis. [;)]

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: erikbengtsson

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

I agree deeply with Hyla above.

In more than one game I quickly faced Soviets that were super prepared in CPP (Which as force multiplier benefits them a lot due to many units - and in the way CPP are spent).
The '41 WAll of Soviets was already amazing - and at the first battering Soviets take they can just slip slightly away, maybe sacrifice 1-2 hexes of division(s) and reshape a sturdy line.
Germans wasted their CPP to achieve that little.

Perhaps the Soviet player should not be able to have assault HQ's until December 41. And perhaps it should be restricted during spring and summer of 42 too?

That would be a very good step in the right direction.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

while I try to avoid an early death as the Axis. [;)]

I feel your sentiments here. You gave other Soviets the insight now you will see the wrath from the other side. Now it feels like I am playing you when I play against another Soviet. But I have no illusions of Grandeur, I too as Germany will get beaten into pulp before 44 in my game. Welcome to the club M60 on the German side.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: erikbengtsson

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

I agree deeply with Hyla above.

In more than one game I quickly faced Soviets that were super prepared in CPP (Which as force multiplier benefits them a lot due to many units - and in the way CPP are spent).
The '41 WAll of Soviets was already amazing - and at the first battering Soviets take they can just slip slightly away, maybe sacrifice 1-2 hexes of division(s) and reshape a sturdy line.
Germans wasted their CPP to achieve that little.

Perhaps the Soviet player should not be able to have assault HQ's until December 41. And perhaps it should be restricted during spring and summer of 42 too?

Perhaps the Axis player should go where they are not.

[M60A3TTS]

Just a reminder, I have had a chance to practice building the Red Army during beta testing. Here was a result from a game against a couple testers at about the same time of the game. This didn't end long before release.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: erikbengtsson

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

I agree deeply with Hyla above.

In more than one game I quickly faced Soviets that were super prepared in CPP (Which as force multiplier benefits them a lot due to many units - and in the way CPP are spent).
The '41 WAll of Soviets was already amazing - and at the first battering Soviets take they can just slip slightly away, maybe sacrifice 1-2 hexes of division(s) and reshape a sturdy line.
Germans wasted their CPP to achieve that little.

Perhaps the Soviet player should not be able to have assault HQ's until December 41. And perhaps it should be restricted during spring and summer of 42 too?

Perhaps the Axis player should go where they are not.

Great idea!!! Only a couple of problems. 1). Supply network dictates advance thus obvious avenues. 2). Soviets usually there way in advance 3). see #1

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Just a reminder, I have had a chance to practice building the Red Army during beta testing. Here was a result from a game against a couple testers at about the same time of the game. This didn't end long before release.

Ya, it will be the norm here shortly. The AP, Assualt HQ, replacement rate & other factors grow the Red Army into a power house by 42 and in 43 into an unstoppable force. Maybe I am wrong... I hope but think not.

[AlbertN]

The more I read the more I grow worried - that screenshot above shows elite german formations just mass surrendering in June '42.

Another problem I regularly saw is that Soviets attacks are often scott free.
Minimalistic losses or the like. Commissars clearly allowed bayonet assaults to stop at the first artillery fire from Germans; instead of sending Soviet troops to the butchery.

But I see already in '41 extreme operational capability in the hands of -some- Soviet players, that smash Panzer Regiments all over the place.
Either Germans pocket using divisions, or they get mauled. - Sure the Soviets lose a quantity of armour too but it seems they replace it like nuts. Same is for ... pretty much anything, perception wise.

[freeboy]

In my axis vs ai the reds are dying in 100k plus range per turn in winter nov dec 42
the losses above do not represent all situations they will likely go over 8 million men lost in the weeks to come in my game.
Weather is the worst enemy I have

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

In my axis vs ai the reds are dying in 100k plus range per turn in winter nov dec 42
the losses above do not represent all situations they will likely go over 8 million men lost in the weeks to come in my game.
Weather is the worst enemy I have

Yeah, unfortunately the AI isn't maxing out the capabilities of the Soviet Army

[jubjub]

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

The more I read the more I grow worried - that screenshot above shows elite german formations just mass surrendering in June '42.

Another problem I regularly saw is that Soviets attacks are often scott free.
Minimalistic losses or the like. Commissars clearly allowed bayonet assaults to stop at the first artillery fire from Germans; instead of sending Soviet troops to the butchery.

But I see already in '41 extreme operational capability in the hands of -some- Soviet players, that smash Panzer Regiments all over the place.
Either Germans pocket using divisions, or they get mauled. - Sure the Soviets lose a quantity of armour too but it seems they replace it like nuts. Same is for ... pretty much anything, perception wise.

After turn 3 or 4, you can't expect a panzer division - much less a regiment - to hold it's own on the front line unless it's in woods, behind a river, or supported by motorized regiments/divisions. They're my #1 target that I look for as the Soviets.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

The more I read the more I grow worried - that screenshot above shows elite german formations just mass surrendering in June '42.

Another problem I regularly saw is that Soviets attacks are often scott free.
Minimalistic losses or the like. Commissars clearly allowed bayonet assaults to stop at the first artillery fire from Germans; instead of sending Soviet troops to the butchery.

But I see already in '41 extreme operational capability in the hands of -some- Soviet players, that smash Panzer Regiments all over the place.
Either Germans pocket using divisions, or they get mauled. - Sure the Soviets lose a quantity of armour too but it seems they replace it like nuts. Same is for ... pretty much anything, perception wise.

I believe the German units shown surrendering were surrounded. Once they run out of hexes to retreat to in the end they will mass surrender in that way.

I think the Devs need much more data before they can make decisions on balance. Particularly data from games between players at a more average level.

If the top players are able to see ways that they can win with the Soviets in 43 that in itself is not a problem - that is the whole point of them being top players. The issue comes if either the overall balance is off so that a large majority of Soviet players at all levels are winning by that date. Or alternatively if the best players play each other to show that there is a balance issue that is insurmountable no matter what the level of skill.

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: smokindave34
Well done M60! I reserve the right for your first official match for WITE3 (or War in Europe....)

Thanks Dave. You're always first in line for re-matches. [:)]

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: smokindave34
Well done M60! I reserve the right for your first official match for WITE3 (or War in Europe....)

Thanks Dave. You're always first in line for re-matches. [:)]

I absolutely admire Smokindave. Great guy!

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: erikbengtsson

Now I get it, thank you for the explanation.

By the way, I would love to see a game between you and HLYA.

Well we wouldn't want to disappoint you...

Stay tuned.

[jubjub]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: erikbengtsson

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

I agree deeply with Hyla above.

In more than one game I quickly faced Soviets that were super prepared in CPP (Which as force multiplier benefits them a lot due to many units - and in the way CPP are spent).
The '41 WAll of Soviets was already amazing - and at the first battering Soviets take they can just slip slightly away, maybe sacrifice 1-2 hexes of division(s) and reshape a sturdy line.
Germans wasted their CPP to achieve that little.

Perhaps the Soviet player should not be able to have assault HQ's until December 41. And perhaps it should be restricted during spring and summer of 42 too?

That would be a very good step in the right direction.

I think this touches on the main issue I see. CPP build up just happens too fast. Historically, it took months to build up for an offensive in one sector, not two weeks. I think this is the main reason that the Soviets can sustain offensives much longer than they were able to historically.


I think an elegant solution is to subject CPP build up to leadership rolls. This would give the Axis an edge in building up their armies, as well as slow down the rate of CPP build up for both sides. It does seem kind of silly that almost everything in game has to be rolled for, but the most important stat in the game is an automatic buff every turn.

[erikbengtsson]

ORIGINAL: jubjub

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: erikbengtsson



Perhaps the Soviet player should not be able to have assault HQ's until December 41. And perhaps it should be restricted during spring and summer of 42 too?

That would be a very good step in the right direction.

I think this touches on the main issue I see. CPP build up just happens too fast. Historically, it took months to build up for an offensive in one sector, not two weeks. I think this is the main reason that the Soviets can sustain offensives much longer than they were able to historically.


I think an elegant solution is to subject CPP build up to leadership rolls. This would give the Axis an edge in building up their armies, as well as slow down the rate of CPP build up for both sides. It does seem kind of silly that almost everything in game has to be rolled for, but the most important stat in the game is an automatic buff every turn.

Reading that, it seems like a very good suggestion.

[AlbertN]

At the same time there should be some formula to have CPP loss similar to the one defending.

To lose 50% of the CPP if X attacks is an absolute.
A matter is a division attacking a regiment or a fortified unit; and another is a division attacking another division.