New AAR - but not as good as Snigbert's

[IChristie]

As requested, here is how the scenario played out when the Yamato TF was ordered to Luganville..

23 Oct - After analysing the US BB's movements, the Imperial General Staff sends immediate word that they Yamato task force should make all deliberate speed for Luganville as they suspect the US ships will head there. Ponderously the Yamato turns south. The ships in Luganville are brought to maximum alert and the light and heavy covering forces take up positions to head off any the US TF should it arise.

At 9:00AM the US ships are indeed seen heading roughly SE, but mechanical difficulties force the shadowing patrol aircraft to return to Nevea. Subsequent patrols fail to locate the Task Force for the rest of the day. At all headquarters and aboard all teh ships in Luganville harbour the same question is on everyone's lips: "Who will get there first?"

Late in the day the question is answered as a patrol out of Port Vila spots the American ships steaming fast for Luganville harbour. Aboard the ships of the two covering forces, the crews grimly man their stations and prepare for their coming doom.

At Port Vila airfield the Val divebombers - sitting ready on the flight line since mid afternoon - are scrambled immediately. They find the American ships and immediately attack. they find that the flak produced by two new battleships is intense. 50% of the aircraft are destroyed or damaged. One bomb hits the Washington but does no serious damage. The cruiser San Francisco is not so lucky. She takes two bomb hits which cause an explosion which damages her steering and reduces her speed. She begins to fall behind the main task force.

In desperation the Val strike commander radios that they have been unable to seriously wound the enemy ships. Hearing the news, the fighters assigned to fly CAP over the beaches descend on the US ships intent on doing whatever they can. They repeatedly strafe the ships until their ammunition is gone. Although the fighters do no measureable damage they have a decisive impact on future events.

The two airstrikes badly disorganise the US task force. It takes precious minutes to regroup and reform. Just as formation has been regained a message from the San Francisco (now trailing several thousand yards to rear) electrifies the bridge aboard the Washington:

"Enemy Capital Ships Approaching!"

Yamato & co. have arrived. The US BB's abruptly change course and steam to meet the new threat. The San Francisco, limping at 10 kts and with damaged steering turns to the attack. She is an easy target. Action opens at 16000 yds and on the second salvo all three IJN BB's have the range. It is over in less than 5 minutes. Only an oilslick remains as mute testimony to the heroism of the San Francisco's crew.


Next... Big Guns, Big Fun

[IChristie]

The Japanese ships have no time to savour the victory as they find the pride of the USN bearing down on them. Once again action opens at 16000 yds. Both sides prove that they have been hard at their gun drills. The Japanese strike first. Yamato's second salvo slams into South Dakota. This is followed in rapid succession by salvos from Mutsu and the cruiser Mikuma. The Nagato exchanges salvos with the Washington, while both obtain direct hits, the Nagato is heavily damaged when a splinter ignites a secondary battery magazine. She pulls out of line trailing smoke. The South Dakota, despite fires burning amidships hits back, landing 2 salvos on the Yamato. The hits damage the primary fire direction circuits and the fire from the Yamato's main batteries becomes erratic. The Cruiser Minneapolis interposes herself between the South Dakota and her tormentors she is rewarded by being struck amidships by a 16" salvo from Mutsu. The salvo penetrates her belt armour and opens a hole in her side.

As the range closed to 14000 yards, the Japanese DD's are ordered to begin their torpedo runs. The Washington responds with her secondary batteries and mauls two of the destroyers. Despite this and several sharp actions between DD's on both sides the DD's manage to successfully launch torpedos. The Washington, under full power, has no trouble avoiding the torpedo attack. The Minneapolis and South Dakota are not so lucky. With fires burning, and speed decreased they are both easy targets and are hit by torpedos.

As the range closes to 12000 yards, the US DD's rush to the aid of the North Dakota laying smoke between her and the attackers. The Yamato, with primary batteries for all intents and purposes out of action, peppers the wounded South Dakota with her secondary batteries. The Mutsu concentrates on exchanging fire with the Washington and engages the US DD's with her secondary armament. The Nagato continues to burn fiercely. All is confusion.

Suddenly the US ships turn South once again and head toward the Luganville roads. Due to the nearly miraculous damage control skill shown by the crews of the the Minneapolis and the South Dakota, they are able to draw away from the Yamato and the Mutsu. With night drawing in, main batteries still non-functional and the task force disorganized and damaged, the Yamato lets them go, confident that the covering forces will be more than a match for the partially disabled US ships...

The final damage total is shown in the attachment

Next... Are those Cruisers I see before me?

[HMSWarspite]

The ranges quoted are very short for a capital ship action. Was it daylight/good weather, because I would expect the action to commence at well over 20000 yds if so, and maybe close to 16-18k at the climax? All the actions I recall (where the visibilty allows) were opened at well above 8 miles. IIRC Warspite scored a first salvo hit at 24000? in the med against the Italians (OK, fluke, but all the same)

[Edit] Sorry - mind playing tricks. The shell in question was fired at Giulio Cesare, at 26400yds, 7 minutes after opening fire, at the battle off Calabria on 9th July 1940. According to my sources, this still holds the record for a hit on a moving target from a naval gun (obviously without guided munitions). It was definately not uncommon to fire at these ranges. In fact, the 5th BS (inc Warspite) opened fire at 19000yds at the German battle cruisers at Jutland in WW1 - quite spoiled their day for a few minutes, since they couldn't reply!

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Well, me too is surprised.
I allways thought that japs and yank ships were for long range fire est. over 30k, instead of the middle-range fire tactic of german and british ships.

If an old cane like the warspite could open fire at longer range this sounds strange, or compare it with the bismarck-hood battle, they opened fire under total covered and bad weather about 28000meters, the good hits wich sunk the hood were at est. 18000 meters (ca. 20.000 yards), in a area with a sight range of 12-15 miles in rough sea...

so i think the battle should be at greater range, because even if the german and english crews were better, i don´t think they were so much better...

but go one.... great AAR

[mogami]

Hi, In game terms what range gives plunging fire deck hits rather then hits on belt armour? BB vrs BB daylight battle ships would rather fire plunging fire. BB vrs CA/smaller they might close range to use secondary etc. Do all ships in a TF use the same range?

[byron13]

Jeez, Iain. Taking a breather. I'm disappointed that there hasn't been any action on your thread for TWO DAYS! What's up with that? Just because Snigbert is having some fun doesn't mean we're not still interested in the battle for L'ville!

[tohoku]

Originally posted by ftwarrior

They always seemed just one step ahead of your big boys throughout the episode.

It's a special feature of the AI: it reads this forum.

HTH

tohoku
YMMV

[madflava13]

US and Jap ships were designed with long range fire in mind, but the opportunity never came up -
Most battles - all battles?- were medium/short ranged skirmishes.
The weather, intelligence, etc. aspects included in this game most likely reflect the fact that no surface engagements in the region happened over long distances. The only Pacific battle I can think of where long range gunnery was used was the Japanese attack on the CVEs at Leyte - IIRC, the US sailors reported several dye rounds (markers) being fired when only the very tops of the BB/CA masts could be seen visually... I don't know the exact range figures offhand though...

[Raverdave]

Originally posted by madflava13
US and Jap ships were designed with long range fire in mind, but the opportunity never came up -
Most battles - all battles?- were medium/short ranged skirmishes.
...

Got this following piece from http://www.warships1.com/W-Tech/tech-006.htm

by Tony DiGiulian on December 18, 1998 at 03:14:04:

Which Battleship scored the longest-range hit on an enemy warship?

The HMS Warspite hit the Guilio Cesare in July 1940 at 26,400 yds. Up until now, I've always believed that this was the longest range hit ever scored on a moving target in a naval combat engagement. Recently, I reread an old book of mine that is an English translation of a German history of the Kriegsmarine in WWII. In it, there is a summary of the Glorious sinking based upon the German after action reports. In this report, there is enough data to have made me think that the Scharnhorst hit the Glorious at a greater range than the Warspite hit the Guilio Cesare. I've been trying to confirm this ever since. I can now report success.

I have found an on-line website that has an article on the engagement:

http://www.primenet.com/~inro/no11994.htm

This is an on-line copy of an article published in Warship International in 1994, titled "Loss of the HMS Glorious," by Vernon W. Howland, Captain, RCN (Retd.). Some data points from the article (found in various places):

1) Scharnhorst was 28,600 yds. distant at 1632 when she opened fire
2) Her third salvo hit the Glorious at 1638.
3) Scharnhorst was 26,465 yds. distant or slightly less from the Glorious between 1636 and 1638.

Notes on above data points:

a) 1 and 2 above agrees with the German after action report summary that I have a translation of, and what started this whole quest of mine.

b) The conversion from hectometers to yards appears to have been poorly done in the table given in the article. It appears that the author converted from hectometers (what the Germans used in their reports) to yards, and then back to hectometers to create the table. I can rationalize the table in no other way. This appears to have led to errors and typos. For instance, at 1641, the range in the table is given as 26,137 yds. and 230 hectometers. Actually, the correct hectometer conversion would be 239. I am assuming that the yard values are correct, as this is what the author should have been most familiar with - he is, after all, Canadian. However, it is possible that, in this one instance, the decameter distance given in the table is correct. If so, then the distance at 1639 would have been 240 hectometers, or about 26,260 yds. I do not believe that this materially affects the end result, but I'll accept that it may be a flaw in my reasoning.


Some analysis of the above data points:

In the three minute period between 1636 and 1639, the distance appears to have remained constant at 26,465 yds., or it may have decreased somewhat to 26,260 yds. For the Scharnhorst to have hit the Glorious at 1638, she must have fired no later than 1637 (allowing for a maximum flight/spot/reload time of 90 seconds and assuming that the times are rounded off to the nearest minute). At 1637, assuming a constant closing rate, the Scharnhorst would have been at about 26,400 yds. So, I think that somewhere between 26,400 to 26,465 yds. is the correct distance, whatever the errors in the table may be.

Bottom line: It appears that the Scharnhorst hit the Glorious at about 26,465 yds. or slightly less. To me, this is essentially the same distance reported for the Warspite striking the Guilio Cesare, 26,400 yds. So, it's really a tie between the HMS Warspite and the KM Scharnhorst.

[HMSWarspite]

Originally posted by Raverdave



Bottom line: It appears that the Scharnhorst hit the Glorious at about 26,465 yds. or slightly less. To me, this is essentially the same distance reported for the Warspite striking the Guilio Cesare, 26,400 yds. So, it's really a tie between the HMS Warspite and the KM Scharnhorst.
[/I]

Yes I was aware of that too. I generally disregard it because
1) HMS Warspite was a great ship (and British!)
2) Warspite was under fire from Battlewagon main armament at the time, Scharnhorst wasn't.
3) Scharnhorst one less well documented
4) see 1
5) My Dad came back from Cape Town in 1942 in convoy with Warspite (when he was a boy)

Also, Warspite fought at the second battle of Narvick, and that deserves remembering (BB penetrating confined water to hunt destroyers!)
Oh yes, and see 1) above (in case you're still unconvinced!)

Seriously, I don't know of any collaboration of Scharnhorsts exploit (all RN ships sunk). MAybe someone else knows more?

[madflava13]

Just wanted to clarify that my points were with regard to the Pacific theater... I am certainly no expert on Atlantic/Med ops.

[byron13]

Hello? You bagging the game now that it's gone gold?

[IChristie]

I wasn't planning to.

I have played out to mid Nov but haven't had a chance to post the results yet.

My wife's sprained ankle and the need to make some progress on some WITP work out of the way (not to mention, this annoying need to sleep I seem to have developed) have been conspiring against me.

[byron13]

Look, just wheel the wife out into the backyard in the wheelchair and forget about her! Give her a cell phone so she can order pizza out there. As for WitP, I certainly understand that priority and wouldn't want to interfere, but don't forget public relationships! You've still got weeks to go before the drooling ravers can get their hands on UV. You are still responsible for keeping us under control (though many ravers are now at the WitP site).

[IChristie]

Aye, Aye Sir

OK, let me just wheel my better half out onto the deck...

now where was I...

Oops, there she goes down the stairs again...

What's that honey? Broken? No, it doesn't look broken. It always hangs at that angle from your knee. The blood, Oh don't worry about it, just some pressure on it, I'll be right there.

What's that? No, Honey, I don't think we should have your Mother come visit to help out...

NO, really that isn't necessary.

HONEY! Put the phone down! DO NOT CALL YOUR MOTHER!

............. Oops gotta go!


-

[IChristie]

When last we left our heroes, dawn was breaking on 24 October, 1942 the day after the battle of Luganville sound in which the US fast battleships Washington and South Dakota along with a force of cruisers and DD's took on the two cruiser TF's defending the Japanese supply convoy unloading in Luganville sound. The battle was a tactical draw with significant damage inflicted on both sides. Overall the action was a strategic victory for the IJN as the supply convoy was untouched and the heavily damaged US cA's were caught the next day by LBA and sunk. In addition, both US fast battleships sustained damage and might well be out of commission for some time.


25 Oct - The damaged ships from the two covering force TF's are despatched for Truk. The remainder of the ships are combined into a single TF. Many of the ships are badly worn out from two months of constant action. SOme of the DD's are up into the high teens and even 20's for system damage. The combined TF is sent back to Rabaul for a rest. A heavy CA TF (formed from the CV escorts is formed in Shortland and moved down to Noumea to replace Yamato & co who are also starting to show some wear and tear. Another CA TF is formed in Truk and ordered to Rabaul to take the next rotation.

My luck finally runs out as B-17's from Noumea get through to L'ville and hit Mutsu with 3 bombs and start her on fire. In return 14 Betty's from Port Vila go after ships in Noumea harbour and all are shot down by the CAP (numbering more than 90 fighters). I REALLY wish they would stop doing things like that!

26 Oct - The convoy unloading is complete so I pull Yamato & Co out of Luganville to Nevea for a rest. On the way to Nevea the Mutsu drops out as she is not able to keep up. She will be sent back to Truk and probably returned to Japan.

I start loading some serious troop Reinforcment convoys for Luganville in Truk. Reinforcements are already on the way from Rabaul and Lunga

27 Oct - 41st Regt arrives at L'ville. The Reg't embarked at Rabaul about a week ago. One of the tpt's was torpedoed on the night of 24 Oct but they still seem to be in decent shape. I have used small AP's (100K) for this convoy so we can get troops ashore quickly.

While the convoy is in the harbour a raid arrives from Noumea. 22 bombers get throught the CAP (of about 30). Luckily no hits are scored.

The US transport squadrons are hard at work again this turn attempting to resupply L'ville. They are chewed up pretty well by my CAP.

28 oct - The small AP's pay off as the 41 Regt finishes unloading in one day. I decide to try the US ground strength with a Limited attack with 41 Regt and 35th Bde. The result: 1400 Japanese Casualties vs 94 US. They may be hungry but they still have ammunition apparently!

Recon over Noumea reveals 100 fighters in the CAP!

30 OCt - Not much going on. L'ville is resupplied by air again this turn the resupply is opposed by the fighters operating from Port Vila.

31 Oct - A small convoy makes a run from Noumea. The convoy is caught by Val's off shore with no effect. I switch the Betty's back to Naval attack (I turned them off to prevent any more suicide attacks against shipping in Noumea harbour). I also move a CA TF down from Noumea (these are the ships from Shortland the I moved over last week when Yamato & co. withdrew).

Another air resupply attempt. I think things must be getting desperate in L'ville

1 Nov - The Betty's hit one AP with torpedoes. The CA's arrive in Luganville and scare the convoy off. They go back to loitering off shore.


3 Nov - After a couple more air attacks the US convoy gives up and heads back to L'ville apparently without landing any supplies.

The reinforcements from Lunga arrive in L'ville sound. They are met by large scale air raids from Noumea which damage 1 AP.
Ooops, the L'ville airfield is back in operation with P-38's and F4F's. Maybe some stores did get landed, hmmmm...

40 TBF's from Noumea attack my APD's resupplying Port Vila. They are at extreme range and carrying bombs. The ships suffer no damage.

I prepare to send Yamato & co. back to L'ville to have another go at the airfield. I have built up LCU strength to the point where I now outnumber the US. I think it's time to start planning a ground offensive to finish off L'ville once and for all.

Over on New Guinea, the US raids have switched from Lae to Buna. I have not even been opposing the air raids.

No sign of the US carriers yet. It may get interesting yet if they show up. Realistically though the AI is in bad shape in this one. To avoid auto victory it has to recapture both Koumac and Port Vila and prevent L'ville from falling. Also the 2nd recon is gradually working it's way down New Caledonia and will be in position to attack Basse Poya in another couple weeks. IF that base is lightly defended, that might mean another base "south of 52" in allied hands.

Truth be told, this is not the most exciting phase of the game. There really is not much going on. The evisceration of the US fleet has pretty much forestalled any more major naval action for a while and the air war has settled in to a predictable pattern of large raids on Buna and L'ville from Port Moresby and Noumea respectively. Supplying the beachead is starting to get a bit precarious as the US air from Noumea is growing more effective every day.

[Ron Saueracker]

Your damage.jpg list includes the DD Athabaskan. What? What is she doing there? Is this HMCS Athabaskan, the Tribal? Sounds weird to me...don't even think she was commisioned in 42, let alone in the Pacific.

[IChristie]

Yeah, she shows up in the fall of '42. Don't know if it's HMCS or not (was there another Athabaskan?).

Don't even know if that's a beta artifact or not.

[Ron Saueracker]

Hopefully, this was a mistake. Too many "what ifs" can ruin a game if they are not optional.

[mogami]

Hi, ship losses must be very high if they are transfering from the Atlantic. (not to mention speeding up construction) But hey this it what the forums are for.


HMCS ATHABASKAN (the first there have been 2 more. Number 3 is still active)
In September 1939, the RCN decided to order new ships to replace the old destroyers previously transferred from the Royal Navy (RN). The RCN preferred the Tribals with their heavy gun armament because they wanted to take the war to the enemy instead of relying on purely defensive vessels. Originally all of the Tribals were to be built in Canada but this was not practical at the time since Canada did not have an extensive ship building industry. The British Admiralty agreed that the UK should build the first ones and they also acted as agents, arranging for the Canadian Government to buy the Tribals by a system of direct instalments while Britain paid cash for the corvettes being built in Canadian yards for the RN.


The first two ships were laid down as IROQUOIS and ATHABASKAN but IROQUOIS was delayed by bombing while on the stocks. ATHABASKAN was therefore renamed IROQUOIS and launched as the lead ship while the original IROQUOIS was launched as ATHABASKAN. After her commissioning on 3rd February 1943 at Newcastle-on-Tyne, she was assigned to the British Home Fleet but ATHABASKAN was plagued with mishaps during her very short service life.
The ship left on 29th March 1943 to patrol the Iceland-Faeroes Passage for blockade runners. Weather induced stress caused hull damage This took five weeks to repair at South Shields, U.K. In June 1943, ATHABASKAN took part in Operation Gearbox III, the relief of the garrison at Spitsbergen. On June 18, she collided with the boom defence vessel BARGATE at Scapa Flow, resulting in a month of repairs at Devonport. In July and August of 1943, she was based in Plymouth, carrying out anti-submarine patrols in the Bay of Biscay and on August 27 was hit by a glider bomb off the Spanish coast. She managed to reach Devonport where she remained under repair until November 10.

Returning to Scapa Flow in December, she escorted convoy JW55A to Russia but in February 1944, rejoined Plymouth command and was assigned to the newly formed 10th Destroyer Flotilla. On 26th April, she assisted in the destruction of the German torpedo boat T 29 in the Channel off Ushant and three days later on 29th April, was sunk by a torpedo from T24, an Elbing class destroyer, north of the Ile de Bas. Her Captain, John Stubbs and 128 men were lost, 83 taken prisoner and 44 rescued by HAIDA