Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (Allies)

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: seydlitz

In real life, had Japan attacked Russia as I have, Germany would have beaten Russia. During December 1941, the German army had essentially surrounded Moscow and were within sight of the city. Russia moved 30 divisions from this area across Siberia to counterattack. These were experienced troops, equipped for winter fighting, who had tested themselved in battle against the Japanese over the previous four years. Without their movement, Moscow would have fallen. So, even though I am going to have a tough go of it in the game I know that I will be helping my ally when the war with Russia, and that will increase my chances for a negotiated peace that also leaves me with control of the whole Asian co-prosperity sphere.

Those divisions (the so-called "Siberian Divisions") are not in the AE, they had left the Far East and Transbaikal much ealier (if I remember correctly, the last one had left in October 1941). STAVKA did not transfer the "Siberian Divisions" to the Western Front after Pearl Harbour but much earlier (the Battle of Moscow had already started before PH and it takes some time to move even one division from the Far East to Europe with the Transsib).

You are 'only' fighting the Soviet forces that actually were in the Far East/Transbaikal in December 1941 (and this includes some newly raised divisions as well as some 'old' divisions like 3rd and 22nd Rifle Divisions.

[seydlitz_slith]

ORIGINAL: Streptokok

Im just so pissed off at this:

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 37
Ki-27b Nate x 143
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 14

Allied aircraft
I-153 x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27b Nate: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
I-153: 1 destroyed

Even if you didnt bring those 143x Nates, 51x Zeros and Oscars would so overwhelm 12x I-153 they would just be wiped out. [:(]

The funny thing here is that the zeroes cruised around at 21000 feet for all of the sweep combats and never engaged at all. Meanwhile the Oscars and Nates did all the fighting at 14000 feet. It was the first time that I had seen this type of behavior because frankly I had been looking for the zeroes to join in and kill the enemy.

It doesn't bother me in the least that I had this many aircraft in the attack. My objective was to bring overwhelming force to the fight. I needed the air clear of fighters before my bombers arrived. Recon indicated that he had over 130 fighters based in the 3 hex cluster of Rybilov, Voroshilov, and Vladivostok. It seems like all of the nates decided to fly together from three different bases and were joined by the Oscars and zeroes from two additonal bases.

Besides, we all know that the I-153 is the F-15 of the Soviet air force. That plane has proven to be my toughest opponent to date, much harder than the P-40s.

[seydlitz_slith]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: seydlitz

In real life, had Japan attacked Russia as I have, Germany would have beaten Russia. During December 1941, the German army had essentially surrounded Moscow and were within sight of the city. Russia moved 30 divisions from this area across Siberia to counterattack. These were experienced troops, equipped for winter fighting, who had tested themselved in battle against the Japanese over the previous four years. Without their movement, Moscow would have fallen. So, even though I am going to have a tough go of it in the game I know that I will be helping my ally when the war with Russia, and that will increase my chances for a negotiated peace that also leaves me with control of the whole Asian co-prosperity sphere.

Those divisions (the so-called "Siberian Divisions") are not in the AE, they had left the Far East and Transbaikal much ealier (if I remember correctly, the last one had left in October 1941). STAVKA did not transfer the "Siberian Divisions" to the Western Front after Pearl Harbour but much earlier (the Battle of Moscow had already started before PH and it takes some time to move even one division from the Far East to Europe with the Transsib).

You are 'only' fighting the Soviet forces that actually were in the Far East/Transbaikal in December 1941 (and this includes some newly raised divisions as well as some 'old' divisions like 3rd and 22nd Rifle Divisions.

Wow, then the Soviets must have really had a lot of troops. I thought that Don Bowen had mentioned that they had strengthend the OOB to include those troops that had been sent west in AE. There certainly seems to be more guys here than in stock by a good margin.

[seydlitz_slith]

ORIGINAL: bklooste


What about some float plane engines and factories like the Glenn etc Can they not be converted along with their engines ? Since Japan is the most active in the first 3 months i think getting 2 air and engine plants up for critical types is well worth it. With the goal to reduce experienced pilot losses.


Anyway i think your over the hump with the more experienced guys in Oscars, i don't mind green pilots in Nates as they are dead meat until they get some experience just don't want to loose the more experienced pilots.


It will be very interesting to see how it goes when Russia is down ( though it looks tough ! )your pilot pool will be bad but you armies should be able to sweep through China and give you a big edge on the ground.

I am still operating the Glen factory for a couple of months to make sure that I will have enough Glens for my submarines during the war. The subs tend to lose their Glens a lot and having them on there is important to recon.

I did convert a couple of other factories from planes that I didn't need to planes that I did, but a prime consideration was lack of engines to support additional factories that needed HA-35 engines at start. Even if had found the factory space, it would have been to expand zero production instead of Oscars. The zeroes are far more important since they have better firepower and more importantly, equip the carriers. If the IJAAF loses, it can simply pull back and hide. If the IJNAF loses, then Japan won't be doing too much conquering.

[seydlitz_slith]

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Pollard


What could have allowed Germany to win would have been better counterespionage by Japan. The USSR had a spy in Japan that reported to Stalin that the Japs were not planning an attack, and Stalin relied on this information to transfer troops from Asia to Europe. If this spy had been caught, those troops that saved Moscow probably would have stayed in Asia.

The Japanese were always somewhat naive about protecting their codes and in assuming that they could have a spy in their midst. For whatever reason, the army and navy were always more concerned with fighting each other than any outside party. It always amazes me to see the degree that this infighting went during the thirties and forties.

[Jonathan Pollard]

ORIGINAL: seydlitz
There certainly seems to be more guys here than in stock by a good margin.

That's because stock did not have any of the troops that historically were in the Trans-Baikal Front, and they're present in AE now.

[seydlitz_slith]

Turn 28: January 03, 1942

The turn started off with a bang....but just not a full on explosion.
I-158 shot 8 torpedoes at AP Mt. Vernon off Tobali for one hit...

[seydlitz_slith]

At least I could take solace in the fact that I had my sub in the right place. For whatever reason ships like to transit that particular hex. Beyond that, I wonder what she was doing that close to the front lines.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine attack near Toboali at 51,93

Japanese Ships
SS I-158

Allied Ships
xAP Mount Vernon, Torpedo hits 1, on fire



xAP Mount Vernon is sighted by SS I-158
SS I-158 launches 8 torpedoes at xAP Mount Vernon

Later in the day I had another attack by another sub, this time off Ternate. This time I sunk one of his precious tankers with 3 hits out of a 4 fish spread.

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Sub attack near Mangole at 75,103

Japanese Ships
SS I-166

Allied Ships
TK British Sailor, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage



SS I-166 launches 4 torpedoes at TK British Sailor
I-166 diving deep ....
Sub escapes detection

[seydlitz_slith]

I feel pretty good about the fact that I am getting in some attacks even though i only have a limited number of subs at sea. This means that I am getting at least a few of them into the correct spot to patrol and the leaders are aggressive enough to drive home the attacks.

[seydlitz_slith]

The weather was crappy again this turn on the Russian front and most missions did not fly. He did get in a raid on Hailar and a bombing attack on Kotou.

[seydlitz_slith]

The KB is safely on it's way to port for rest and replenishment. The BB bombardment force is also on it's way back to port to rearm and repair. I had to sprint at full speed for one turn to get away from any potential submarine threat that might have been there, and it resulted in some engine and system damage. Some of these ships, especially Yamashiro, seem to take engine damage just as soon as they ring up full speed.

[seydlitz_slith]

I plan to let the dockyards fix these ships up for a few turns before sending them back up north with the KB in support. By that time, the division that I am pulling out of Wenchow in southern China plus the division from Hong Kong should be abreast Honshu, and I can use them to seal the deal at Okha, then shift them to Petropavlovsk.

I will, however, have some serious choices to make soon regarding my attack on Russia. It appears that he is moving a stack with 1500+ AV to attack Kotou from Bikin. I must decide whether or not to siphon off some of my 3000+ AV from my march on Rybilov to defend the valley. If I guess wrong I could become trapped or mired in contact in two different battles without enough AV to win either one.

[seydlitz_slith]

Up north, my forces are marching from Hailar towards Borzya. However, I have noticed that they do not want to take the shortest path in terms of hexes. Instead, they want to take a long and winding road through the woods. I clicked on the roads, and I think the problem might be this pink stretch of road. Does anyone know what that signifies?

[seydlitz_slith]

Other than this, I continued sweeps over Malaya and the Philippines. Tarakan continues to wait on reinforcements and the Dutch air force continues to make unsuccessful bombing runs on my battleships that are providing gunfire support.

[seydlitz_slith]

I also landed at Rabaul this turn with support from my cruisers. I don't know if I have enough strength to take it or not, but if I don't I will have the troops from Guam here in a few days to provide additional support.

[seydlitz_slith]

In China, I did take a hex near Sinkiang that had been irritating me.
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Ground combat at 86,49

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 18528 troops, 140 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 513

Defending force 13539 troops, 71 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 342

Japanese adjusted assault: 321

Allied adjusted defense: 151

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1090 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 39 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 53 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled


Allied ground losses:
2686 casualties reported
Squads: 165 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 107 destroyed, 24 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units retreated 2


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
116th Division
20th Ind.Mixed Brigade

Defending units:
7th Chinese Corps
84th Chinese Corps
21st Group Army

[seydlitz_slith]

As I said, not as many missions flew during the turn due to the weather. Here is the summary of aircraft losses for the turn:

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: Streptokok

Im just so pissed off at this:

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 37
Ki-27b Nate x 143
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 14

Allied aircraft
I-153 x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27b Nate: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
I-153: 1 destroyed

Even if you didnt bring those 143x Nates, 51x Zeros and Oscars would so overwhelm 12x I-153 they would just be wiped out. [:(]

There is a point of Diminishing returns when it comes to large numbers like the AAR above. In essence you have TOO many Fighters in the air to be of use against a small force. The assumption being that Some smaller portion of the MASSIVE sweep would be used to engage the small enemy CAP. The other thing working against you is the weather. In severe storms, combat can occur, but it will always be impacted by weather. I've personally flown in severe storms, and it makes things...less easy.

In this case it is highly probable that, given the weather, a great number of the sweepers would not even be aware of the small CAP, due to poor visibility, or even IFR conditions throughout the region. You may have had a small break in the weather though that gave the CAP a chance to make an attack, and retire into the weather, before any retribution of the magnitude you seem to desire was possible.

[rattovolante]

ORIGINAL: seydlitz

Up north, my forces are marching from Hailar towards Borzya. However, I have noticed that they do not want to take the shortest path in terms of hexes. Instead, they want to take a long and winding road through the woods. I clicked on the roads, and I think the problem might be this pink stretch of road. Does anyone know what that signifies?

Pink means there is no actual road in the hex, but troops can march over the railroad track (or any maintenance trail along the track if they're lucky). see manual section 4.2.1.5

Move rates are (manual section 8.3.1):
Art/Eng: Main road 30 - Secondary road 15 - R/R track/trail 5 - clear 10
Inf: Main road 30 - Secondary road 15 - R/R track/trail 10 - clear 10
Armor: Main road 60 - Secondary road 30 - R/R track/trail 5 - clear 10

So these units are taking the faster but longer route.

[bklooste]

I am still operating the Glen factory for a couple of months to make sure that I will have enough Glens for my submarines during the war. The subs tend to lose their Glens a lot and having them on there is important to recon.

I did convert a couple of other factories from planes that I didn't need to planes that I did, but a prime consideration was lack of engines to support additional factories that needed HA-35 engines at start. Even if had found the factory space, it would have been to expand zero production instead of Oscars. The zeroes are far more important since they have better firepower and more importantly, equip the carriers. If the IJAAF loses, it can simply pull back and hide. If the IJNAF loses, then Japan won't be doing too much conquering.
zero production instead of Oscars

Why not kill the Glens and their engines and reinstate it when you get some more factories in 42 , i dont find the Glens as useful as WITP. Agree Zero is >> Oscar but not sure about the Tojo do you get it at the start like some AARs or is that scen 2 ? The firepower is needed.

While Zeros are the most useful the IJAAF needs the most work on pilots.