AltHist-A: Shall We Try Again?

[Mus]

Major Diplomacy bug somewhere.

All the parties involved in the PROPOSED Warsaw Pact Treaty are somehow hit with massive glory penalties for violating something never ratified by all parties.

We need somebody looking at this as this is a total screwup.

I sent it, so France was a yes by default. We need to find out how everyone voted whether accept or reject on Warsaw Pact. Poland obviously didn't because he counterproposed a new treaty, which should have automatically resulted in it's being rejected. Since Russia was declaring war he probably didn't accept it either.

Also note the treaty that was never ratified between Poland and Russia was "canceled" as a result of the Russian declaration of war.

[Mus]

Villars your PM Box is full again.

[vaalen]

I did not accept it, as I learned of the Russian attack on Poland before I sent in my turn. I rejected it and received a huge Glory penalty. Nasty bug.

ORIGINAL: Mus

Major Diplomacy bug somewhere.

All the parties involved in the PROPOSED Warsaw Pact Treaty are somehow hit with massive glory penalties for violating something never ratified by all parties.

We need somebody looking at this as this is a total screwup.

I sent it, so France was a yes by default. We need to find out how everyone voted whether accept or reject on Warsaw Pact. Poland obviously didn't because he counterproposed a new treaty, which should have automatically resulted in it's being rejected. Since Russia was declaring war he probably didn't accept it either.

Also note the treaty that was never ratified between Poland and Russia was "canceled" as a result of the Russian declaration of war.

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: vaalen

I did not accept it, as I learned of the Russian attack on Poland before I sent in my turn. I rejected it and received a huge Glory penalty. Nasty bug.

Trying to figure out what caused it, if there was anything unusual about what anyone did with their turn in regards to accepting it/rejecting it, not responding to it, something that happened with the turn merge, anything.

This is a really weird bug. If it wasn't finalized there is nothing to cancel, so WTF?

[Mus]

French Turn 4 in. Can we try to pick up the pace?

[Marshal Villars]

My turn will be in around 4 pm New York time tonight (Oct 29).

[Anthropoid]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my perusal of the turn indicates that Poland has decided not to honor her deal with Russia to evacuate and peacefully cede the three provinces in question (Courland, Kovno, Volhynia)?

Poland agreed in previous communiques with me to cede these provinces in exchange for "protection" (along with other promises that have still not come to pass).

As such, I now consider Russian obligations to Poland to have been absolved by Polish deceipt and failure to back up words with actions.

As I already stated, I will be happy to agree to a more-or-less permanent enforced peace with anyone except Poland, and France if they insist on continuing to act as they do. Once Poland surrenders, we will happily agree to such a long-term peace with them too.

Even France, if he begins to act less Imperious and more gentlemanly would be potentially considered for a long-term peace deal. We were drug into Polish webs by their "pleas for help and protection," and are quite disappointed at the deceipt and trickery we have been subjected to. Nonetheless, we will happily resume a state of peaceful relations once Poland has redressed the wrong doing.

Out of Character:
RusDone turn 4 and resent.

When you guys say "bug" how much glory are we talking about here? It looks to me like we are all at about the same general level we were before, i.e., close to zero.

[terje439]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my perusal of the turn indicates that Poland has decided not to honor her deal with Russia to evacuate and peacefully cede the three provinces in question (Courland, Kovno, Volhynia)?

Would be one turn too soon would it not, would not happen before next turn as this one has been in witing for looong [;)]
So I do not think this is a breaking of the rules, merely a result of the previous turn having lasted something like 10 days now [:D]

And Brit turn 4 in.

Terje

[Anthropoid]

Mmmm, I don't 'think so. We've been talking about this forever yes, but a lot of the talk was before Villars indicated he played turn 3.

The thing is this: For multiple turns now Poland has been jacking me around saying X and then not following through by doing what he says, and I'm sick of it! And I'm also sick of France acting like I'm the villain.

Do what you say you're gonna do in PMs!! Else pay the consequences by having people declare war on you, and also having your reputation impugned here in the forum.

At this stage I consider Poland to have breached her verbal agreements with me, which were stated literally weeks ago now (in real time) and indeed, at least one turn ago (i.e., between turns 2 and 3, and well prior to playing turn 3). In fact, some of Polands un-executed claims (e.g., I will offer you an RoP and Shared Depot treaty so you can move your armies to Cracow and protect me from the big mean Prussian) started between turn 1 and 2. I'm sick of it, and I'm sick of trying to defend my honor when _I AM THE ONE WHO HAS BEEN WRONGED_.

[Randomizer]

Austria's turn in.  Some Trade proposed with Britain and Russia and Austria has proposed that it will Keep Peace with the Czar.

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

At this stage I consider Poland to have breached her verbal agreements with me...

Poland apparently decided not to give in to Russian extortion.

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

When you guys say "bug" how much glory are we talking about here? It looks to me like we are all at about the same general level we were before, i.e., close to zero.

OOC:

We all got hit for -150 Glory on a treaty that wasn't even signed yet. Minus 50 for every "canceled" royal marriage clause times 3 each.

Everyone check the event report (end turn glory is at the END of the report) and the treaty report tab to see the penalties.

Again, I would repeat my request that all players involved with the first proposed Warsaw Pact (France, Russia, Turkey, Poland) notify the group how they responded to the treaty, accept or reject, so that somebody at WCS can help figure out what the hell went wrong and get it fixed. A treaty that wasn't ratified shouldn't be capable of being "canceled" so this is a really bizarre situation.

Obviously I ratified by default as I proposed it. Turkey said he rejected it. Poland counterproposed a different treaty, that should have counted as rejected. Don't know how Russia responded.

PS Villars your inbox is STILL full.

[Anthropoid]

You bend the truth to the breaking point Frenchman and I am seriously sick of it! Russia never extorted Poland. I challenge you to provide a SHRED of evidence that Russia has EVER "extorted" Poland.
 
Poland requested "protection" from Russia and led Russia to _believe_ that all manner of formal treaties were to be put forward by Poland to Russia on following turns (RoPs, shared depots, etc.) while simultaneously cajoling me to move my armies as far into Poland as possible without providing me with the shared depots he said he would provide. None of these claimed offers from Poland have ever come to pass. During discussions I told Poland what I would want in exchange for the protection he asked for; he said "those provinces are also valuable to me" I said "sorry, that is what I want," he eventually said "I agree to your deal." His actions show that he lied when he said he "agreed to the deal."

[vaalen]

It is beneath the dignity of a monarch to accuse another ruler of lying.

Poland has never lied to Turkey.

It is our understanding that their was extensive negotiation between Russia and Poland. Did it nor occur to the Tsar that there may have been a misunderstanding?

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

You bend the truth to the breaking point Frenchman and I am seriously sick of it! Russia never extorted Poland. I challenge you to provide a SHRED of evidence that Russia has EVER "extorted" Poland.

Poland requested "protection" from Russia and led Russia to _believe_ that all manner of formal treaties were to be put forward by Poland to Russia on following turns (RoPs, shared depots, etc.) while simultaneously cajoling me to move my armies as far into Poland as possible without providing me with the shared depots he said he would provide. None of these claimed offers from Poland have ever come to pass. During discussions I told Poland what I would want in exchange for the protection he asked for; he said "those provinces are also valuable to me" I said "sorry, that is what I want," he eventually said "I agree to your deal." His actions show that he lied when he said he "agreed to the deal."

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

You bend the truth to the breaking point Frenchman and I am seriously sick of it! Russia never extorted Poland.

Your last few dozen posts have been a followup to your extortion attempt. The negotiations Poland supposedly lied to you in only began as a result of you hinting that you were going to invade Poland in the first place. Since the failure of those negotiations Poland is threatened with invasion from Russia if it doesn't give up 3 provinces.

Self evident extortion.

[Anthropoid]

So-called "hints" cannot in the humble opinion of this Tzar be appropriately considered to constitute "extortion."
 
@ Sultan Vaalen: Your Excellency, indeed you are correct that it is beneath the dignity of Monarchs to call others "liars." I trust it is entirely true what you say, that Poland has never lied to you. Poland also shares no borders with you, as she does with Prussia and Russia, two nations with whom Poland has exhibited an unequivocal tendency to vacillate in agreement and demands.
 
I must thank you Sultan Vaalen for your gentle scolding of my ungentlemanly outburts. It was quite undignified of me to make such coarse statements, and I should never have stooped to the level where others seemingly dwell so comfortably in acting so undignified. I beg your pardon, and thank you for pointing out our error.
 
In any event: A state of war exists between Russia and Poland. As allies of Poland I will not be surprised if Turkey and France soon initiate hostilities against Russia, which was in no way Russia's goal or intent. Indeed, we fundamentally have no disagreement with either Turkey or France. Despite a strong dislike for the French monarch and his penchant for maligning our character, we would much prefer to restore friendly and cordial relations with both our esteemed Turkish colleague and his outspoken French colleague.
 
No matter who stands against us, we maintain that our cassus belli against Poland was just and we will fight secure in the honor that a just cause affords.
 
Others will have to make their own judgements.
 
[Out of Character: everybody just remember, this is all IN CHARACTER! [:D] What did Stalin say? A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth. I guess it is just a diplomatic "arms race" at this point?]

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

In any event: A state of war exists between Russia and Poland. As allies of Poland I will not be surprised if Turkey and France soon initiate hostilities against Russia, which was in no way Russia's goal or intent. Indeed, we fundamentally have no disagreement with either Turkey or France.

France disagrees. We invite Russia to sign a cease fire with Poland and immediately stop this land extortion.

OOC: Who are we waiting on for turn 5? Would be nice if we could approach 48 hour turnarounds in a similar fashion to Another PBEM.

[vaalen]

Tsar of all the Russias,

We are gratified by the noble and dignified response you made to part of our message to you.

We do ask that you respond to our question - Does it occur to you that there may have been a misunderstanding?

And, should war occur over a misunderstanding?

We do ask, with the deepest respect, that you agree to a ceasefire with Poland and resolve your differences peacefully. Perhaps negotating one issue at a time, to avoid any confusion. We have reason to believe that Poland would be quite willing to negotiate.

I invite you and Poland to negotiate in the public forum, so all may see the benevolence of your intentions. Private negotiations have not worked well in the past.

The Sultan

[Randomizer]

The Most Esteemed Sultan should be aware that, in the unfortunate event the Polish situation requires the Ottoman's go to war with the Czar, Austria will not permit it's territory to be used for passage to Russia or Poland by your Armies.  However, as discussed already the Austrian Army has vacated the our common frontier to assure the Sultan of the Empire's continued good intentions.
 
Tegettoff
Foriegn Minister to the Court of Franz II
Emperor of Austria, King of Hungary and cetera

[vaalen]

We thank our friend, the noble Franz II, for making his wishes clear to us. We appreciate his desire for peace, and thank him for withdrawing his troops from our borders

We have invited the Tsar to make peace, as has France. Turkey desires peace with all its neighbors. We hope the Tsar will agree to a ceasefire with Poland, as we and France have asked.

The Sultan

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

The Most Esteemed Sultan should be aware that, in the unfortunate event the Polish situation requires the Ottoman's go to war with the Czar, Austria will not permit it's territory to be used for passage to Russia or Poland by your Armies.  However, as discussed already the Austrian Army has vacated the our common frontier to assure the Sultan of the Empire's continued good intentions.

Tegettoff
Foriegn Minister to the Court of Franz II
Emperor of Austria, King of Hungary and cetera

[Mus]

Getting close to week turns here.

Who are we waiting on and can we pick up the pace or no?