One last point, there is enough anti-shipping air for the British to fight ships without top-cover near Karachi. Either the units saved from Malaya, or you just put the Swordfish and Albacores from the RN ashore. Not the greatest of planes, but tell that to the Bismarck, or Q-ball's cruisers once they get within range without zeroes overhead. Karachi can be closed down, but that either needs an airbase within Nettie + zero range, or carriers.
I agree that there's a lot of anti-shipping air on the map IF it was saved and IF it can be routed to India without going by sea. I think CR has the RN carriers at CT, which is a long way/time to get their air groups ashore.
I also agree with an earlier post by you (I think) that the RN can harbor off-map in Aden or Abadan, and escape a decisive battle. They can then escort convoys to Karachi. But, ships can't be turned around in the off-map routing boxes, so a decision to hide out gives the KB free rein for a set period of time which Q ought to know from the manual or experience playing the Allies. As well, convoy duty takes lots of surface assets out of play due to the Mid-east turn-around cycle. What defense off-map giveth, it also taketh away.
Great AAR, I am sorry to take up your time, in fact all readers, if this has been covered, but I'll admit I skimmed most of the conversation and mainly concentrated on what you had to say. So I'll only keep to this one point and you can then quietly ignore me if it has been properly discussed.
That is: reinforcements once India is invaded. I know that I received the 2nd NZ Div when NZ was invaded, of course these have to make it to India (from Aden I believe) to be useful, but if they are anything like the 2nd NZ Div, then getting them into the fight is worth considering. I'll also admit at this time, that I don't know what is involved, and where on the map this is triggered. However, that is my ultimate point. Others here will know and if you don't know all ready, it seems pertinent info to either entice him to cross it, such that you get the reinforcements with enough to defend them on their way to India, or just the later if he refuses to cross such a line unwittingly.
Azprezto: Nobody seems quite sure of the location of India's territorial boundary that triggers reinforcements, nor where the reinforcements arrive. Delhi may be the triggering point, but I'm not sure if the line goes north or south or east or west from there. Suffice it to say: I think if Brad heads for Karachi or Bombay or Madras or points in those vicinities he will be far enough south to trigger the reinforcements. I'm sure that Brad is up on this and will plan accordingly. That means he either has to bring enough troops to squash all resistance or to impose a blockade to prevent me from bringing the news guys in.
Ceylon: The Japanese have now landed a small force at Koggala on the eastern tip. The Allies will basically defend two points: Columbu with nearly 800 AV (four forts) and Trincomalee with about 250 AV (three forts). I could have concentrated my forces, but then Brad could do the same. Since he landed a division at Trincomalee, I'd rather leave my troops there to hold that division in check as long as possible. Some RAF bombers hit Jaffa's airfield again, but were overmatched. The RAF has accomplished very little thus far.
India Proper: The Allies currently have about 4,028 AV in bases that have more than 50 AV present. In addition, there are another ten or so cities that have AVs less than 50. So, all total, I think the Allies have about 4,500 AV with which to defend India. In 20 days, 430 AV in UK units arrive in Karachi and about 250 Indian AV arrive at Madras. Here is a quick look at Allied AV in India. I've only listed cities with an AV greater than 50:
North and West India: Karachi 50; Ahmedabad 93; Bombay 201; Poona 50; Hyderabad 70; Cawnpore 79; Lucknow 96; Lahore 217; Rawalpindi 218.
South India: Madras: 510; Bangalore 296; Vizagapetum 117.
Carrier Uncertainty: During the invasion of Ceylon, I was surprised that Brad split his carriers into two forces separated by the island. This leads me to believe that for some reason he doesn't believe the Allied carriers are a threat at the moment. So, he either has reason to believe they are far away or that I won't commit them. Hmmm. Also, I am sure that one of the main reasons for his move on India is to flush my carriers and bring about a decisive battle. I remain committed to not allowing that to happen.
Elsewhere: A quiet turn elsewhere on the map, although the Allies continue to work at logistics - supply and transporting troops from the West Coast to advance bases. I have at least two Marine Regiments set to arrive in the USA in the next few weeks. My first thought is to send them to Suva, but I'm also thinking about ramping up Allied garrisons in the Western Aleutians to create the appearance that the Allies may be planning an attack in NoPac to counter Brad's invasion of Ceylon.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
If he can interdict all shipping coming from the exit chutes does it matter how many extra divisions you get if they all come into Aden?
Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly
Of course not, but is he really willing to commit the KB to patrolling on the extreme fringe of the map for a protracted period? Sounds like a good way for a sea power to commit suicide.
He can't commit a Mini-KB, because he has to assume that the Allies can mass their carriers. At present, the Allied carriers can handle anything short of the full KB.
Therefore, to impose a full blockade Brad has to commit the entire KB. He might do so, but sticking the KB on the far western edge of the map for a lengthy period doesn't sound like a good idea.
Am I missing something?
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
Of course not, but is he really willing to commit the KB to patrolling on the extreme fringe of the map for a protracted period? Sounds like a good way for a sea power to commit suicide.
He can't commit a Mini-KB, because he has to assume that the Allies can mass their carriers. At present, the Allied carriers can handle anything short of the full KB.
Therefore, to impose a full blockade Brad has to commit the entire KB. He might do so, but sticking the KB on the far western edge of the map for a lengthy period doesn't sound like a good idea.
Am I missing something?
Being very careful what I say, as the other AAR is highly active today.
But, I would just suggest you don't get TOO tunnel-visioned by carrier issues. There are other ways to shut down Aden than with the KB. The RAF is terrible at anti-shipping at this point in the war. You could try to get some USA assets into Karachi, but much time and risk coming from CT. Him running surface action groups up north to catch a juicy division heaving into sight out of Aden would just ruin your whole day. And there is the sub option.
Also, with Colombo goes your shipyard. If you dent it it's a long way to help. (Bombay's yard is a joke.) He'll have Colombo as well as Singers nearby.
Bottomline, don't obsess on carriers right now. Obsess on LCUs. My 2 cents.
Well, I have picket ships in position to guard against incursions by the KB.
I doubt surface ships can shut me down without being sighted. And if Brad sends in good surface ships he risks getting outclassed by RN heavies or carriers.
Again, I think Brad has to use the entire KB to shut down Allied shipping from Aden to Karachi in the short term.
My major focus over the next twenty days is getting the reinforcing British division from Aden to Karachi. I think I can do that unless the KB shows up or unless Brad parks major surface ships in the vicinity, in which case he risks getting a bloody nose from carriers.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
Of course not, but is he really willing to commit the KB to patrolling on the extreme fringe of the map for a protracted period? Sounds like a good way for a sea power to commit suicide.
He can't commit a Mini-KB, because he has to assume that the Allies can mass their carriers. At present, the Allied carriers can handle anything short of the full KB.
Therefore, to impose a full blockade Brad has to commit the entire KB. He might do so, but sticking the KB on the far western edge of the map for a lengthy period doesn't sound like a good idea.
Am I missing something?
If he gets a good port on the west coast I think he can split the KB and sprinkle in some surface forces. The only danger to his carriers is the all the allied CV's dropping out of the exit chute at the same time (these exit shoots are a bit like a sci-fi novel no? The whole galactic fleet dropping out of warp ......) Netties have long range, that will help too. And his patrol planes have even longer range so he will know when you are coming. Colombo makes a good sub base and he can line every hex from the chute to Karachi with good subs. I think it is a bit of a shooting gallery and everything coming out of it has troops and planes on it. It certainly ties up the KB, but he can do a lot of damage in India while you are running the gauntlet.
Interesting prospects for both sides here.
Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly
Hit him elsewhere Dan. FORCE him to pay for concentrating all the Japanese CVs in one place a LONG WAYS from the Pacific. Totally concur with reinforcing and/or advancing in the Aleutians. Do you have enough at Suva or Pago Pago to advance towards the Marshalls. Bet there isn't too much there right now. You would have to worry about LBA but maybe you could get him reacting to your moves...
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Azprezto: Nobody seems quite sure of the location of India's territorial boundary that triggers reinforcements, nor where the reinforcements arrive. Delhi may be the triggering point, but I'm not sure if the line goes north or south or east or west from there.
While I am not 100% sure where around Delhi the reinforcements are triggered (I vaguely recall one hex south of Delhi but take that with a huge grain of salt), at least I can tell you what shiny toys you'd get.
XXI Indian Corps @ Aden
6th Indian Div (40 XP / 40 morale)
10th Indian Div (75 / 75)
31st Armoured Div (50/50)
8th Indian Div (75 / 75)
5th Indian Div (70 / 70)
XXI Corps Engr Bn
Waziristan Div (60/60) @ Karachi
plus a nice emergency convoy at Aden bringing lots of CW equipment and supplies
Rainer, thanks! That's good information and good to know that some of the reinforcements arrive in India proper.
JohnDillworth, yes, once Brad gets ports on India's west coast the prospect of a blockade becomes much easier for him. If he does that before I can get the British units arriving at Aden in 19 days to Karachi, I'll be sweating.
Most of the RN is currently at Capetown along with all Allied carriers. Defense of western India at the moment will rest with cruisers and destroyers. That suits me as I don't want to risk a major clash with the KB.
JohnIII, I won't be hitting him hard anywhere yet. I think moving too far forward at this point in the game would just give him chances later in '42 to cut off and destroy Allied troops. Scenario Two is a different animal than Scenario One; and AE is a different animal than WitP.
I think I'm best served in the short term consolidating my grip on important bases currently under my control. If, in the medium term, opportunities arise to take the offensive, I will. But short term I'm going to reinforce my MLR in hopes that I can (1) stop Brad from gobbling any more key bases when the KB returns from India and (2) create the appearance of something menacing developing in the Aleutians.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
XXI Indian Corps @ Aden
6th Indian Div (40 XP / 40 morale)
10th Indian Div (75 / 75)
31st Armoured Div (50/50)
8th Indian Div (75 / 75)
5th Indian Div (70 / 70)
XXI Corps Engr Bn
Waziristan Div (60/60) @ Karachi
That's a lot of stuff! If this gets triggered it will eventually cause much trouble for the Empire. Particularly if the political points are available to send this lot on to Burma.
Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly
XXI Indian Corps @ Aden
6th Indian Div (40 XP / 40 morale)
10th Indian Div (75 / 75)
31st Armoured Div (50/50)
8th Indian Div (75 / 75)
5th Indian Div (70 / 70)
XXI Corps Engr Bn
Waziristan Div (60/60) @ Karachi
That's a lot of stuff! If this gets triggered it will eventually cause much trouble for the Empire. Particularly if the political points are available to send this lot on to Burma.
I'm guessing they are all unrestricted from the start, seeing as you won't get them in India otherwise. I wouldn't hope on getting it activated though, Delhi is quite far to the North.
Huh? I think the trigger is if the Japanese appear south of Delhi, right? That means an invasion of places like Madras, Viz, Trivandrum, Mangalore, Bombay or Karachi would trigger reinforcements. I think the only places the Japanese can invade without triggering reinforcements are Ceylon and NE India around Chittagong/Calcutta.
So, Smeulders, I think you or wrong or that I am misunderstanding your post.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
Well, Ceylon will be a bleeding sore to the IJAAF and IJNAF. Put some subs in the ports to pick up downed pilots and sweep to your hearts content. Bring in some USAAF squadrons from CONUSA via the Atlantic etc and you'll find that it ought to be possible to turn Ceylon into a negative for the Japanese.
Also, amphibious invasions into the DEI tend to come from Oz and could be routed via Capetown. So, losing Ceylon doesn't necessitate its retaking so long as you are willing to take the Cocos Islands and northern/eastern Oz.
Nemo this is scen #2. I think CR will confirm that the Japanese air force is just all too powerful well into 1944. I am in 2/43 in my game and even though I have lost about 1800 fewer planes than Japan, my opponent does seem to be at all bothered. He can still take total fighter superiority anywhere he wants. He has about a gadjillion tojos in his pool-not to mention zeros and oscars whereas two days of heavy air combat leaves me with no fighter reserves. It is quite obscene [:@] but a reality.. The sweep is not a possiblity for the Allies in scen #2 until much later as the losses can not be replaced.
It is so bad that I don't even bother using medium bombers anymore as they just get slaughtered and I have no replacements anyways. The only thing that keeps them honest is the heavy bombers and there just are not enough of them.
Huh? I think the trigger is if the Japanese appear south of Delhi, right? That means an invasion of places like Madras, Viz, Trivandrum, Mangalore, Bombay or Karachi would trigger reinforcements. I think the only places the Japanese can invade without triggering reinforcements are Ceylon and NE India around Chittagong/Calcutta.
So, Smeulders, I think you or wrong or that I am misunderstanding your post.
From that thread I posted the link to, I read it as a line 1 hex south of Dehli must be passed to trigger. IOW, NORTH of 1-hex south of Dehli. So, pretty far north. Not the Madras coast.
Andy Mac's comment to stay away from Dehli seems to reenforce this idea.
Edit: Assuming that line runs west to the coast (but not out to the IO to include Socotra), it intersects at the latitude of Ahmedabad.
I think I must be mistaken due to the fact that there are areas to either side of a line. I thought traveling in the area south of Delhi was the trigger, but apparently you guys are saying it's the area to the NORTH of that line.
Further confusing is the fact that you can draw a line in any of four directions since we are playing with hexsides. So, what moves trigger the rieinforcements depends upon which way you draw the line. Here are the options:
1) North-South: This one doesn't make sense, becasue it includes bases like Calcutta and Chittagong, and I think we all agree that the Japanese can attack there without penalty.
2) East-West: This would mean that Ahmadenabad, Delhi, and Karachi are in the protected zone.
3. NE-SW: This would protect most of southern and western India.
4: NW-SE: This would protect only Delhi.
So which line is it? I assume it's the "east-west" (on the game map, not the real-life map) line.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
Huh? I think the trigger is if the Japanese appear south of Delhi, right? That means an invasion of places like Madras, Viz, Trivandrum, Mangalore, Bombay or Karachi would trigger reinforcements. I think the only places the Japanese can invade without triggering reinforcements are Ceylon and NE India around Chittagong/Calcutta.
So, Smeulders, I think you or wrong or that I am misunderstanding your post.
I meant that Delhi is rather far to the North for your opponent to get North of the line that is one hex South of Delhi (game-orientation). That would be option 2 you give in the other post, though I wouldn't know if Ahmadenabad is just inside or just outside the protected zone.
Okay, then I think this is the line in the sand. Move north of the line in blue on the map and it triggers reinforcements. But I agree that if Japan advances that far then it is well within their power to impose a blockade into Karachi.
Short term, my goal remains to get to Karachi the UK units that arrive in Aden in about 19 days.
Medium and longer term...well, this remains to be seen.
Attachments
India Line.jpg (182.12 KiB) Viewed 171 times
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
