Monday Night Montage (ex-Moose Crossings) - (J) vs. Bullwinkle/Obvert (A)

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Macro, no - it isn't.

But in this particular case, for these sets of units of his, where is it going to come from? It all has to flow through Akyab or be airdropped right now. But airdrops can't supply a stack of that size.

I was talking about this particular case. [:)]

I could supply a far bigger stack from India than that in my game with Erik without any problems. I think I had almost twice what Steve has brought.

Getting supply to flow over land in this game is never an issue. At least not for the allies.

But time of year?

Anyway, my understanding is that supply can flow to them in the bush from any base that passes a check, so long as that base has more than 3* required supply. In my experience, supply just doesn't flow that well in Burma. I'm having fits keeping my guys supplied in my own game, and one of my stacks is not as large as Steve's here.

If I'm keeping Akyab bombed and under 3* supply (no guarantee there, but he also has at least a division there, which eats up a lot of supply), then supply can't ship out from there and it would have to come from Cox's, or Chittagong. It gets successively harder to pass those checks. Also, Akyab is not built up very far, so the maximum supply draw for it is not large. I think it is Port 1/AF 4, unknown level of forts. If it has, say, forts 3, then it's drawing only 800 at max. That's pitiful when set against a stack of this size.

At this point in the game, he also doesn't have the large transport units yet. His bombers are actually bombing, so not supplementing any dropped supply effort.

I'm still skeptical. Already it looks like he ran out of supplies in the north, at least enough to attack with, and is waiting for another shipment. Meanwhile, my troops are recovering and still high morale.

Yeah, I'm gambling that his supplies won't work out for him. But that's a large stack and he doesn't have maximum infrastructure along the coast yet. If the majority of his guys move SE to the open and then I'm not able to inflict heavy casualties via bombing, we might have problems, but I'm not terribly concerned with the JR hex anymore. I've got enough there to stalemate him.

[JocMeister]

I don´t know the mechanic of it but I never had any issues that I can remember. [:)] Neither had Erik when he had to keep his troops supplied from Bangkok.

I had maxed out Chittagong and Akyab and all the bases on the border to Burma though. That probably helped!

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I don´t know the mechanic of it but I never had any issues that I can remember. [:)] Neither had Erik when he had to keep his troops supplied from Bangkok.

I had maxed out Chittagong and Akyab and all the bases on the border to Burma though. That probably helped!

It's one of the main things I remember from way back when I was learning, then decided I didn't really want to get into the nitty-gritty I just wanted to know the basics of how it worked.

From that thread by Alfred, which pretty much says the info from the manual in a much better way:

Supply will not move automatically overland through a hexside owned by the enemy nor through a contested hex.
How often supply will automatically move overland depends on the quality of the overland transportation links. The table in s.8.3.1 of the manual details the cost of moving supply through the different terrain types and transportation infrastructure.

Each overland transportation route has a value which is determined by subtracting from 100 the cost of movement associated with each hex along which the supply must travel. The value of the overland route then determines how often a delivery is made:

• Four times per week if the overland transportation route amounts to 89 - 100
• Two times per week if the route amounts to 49 – 88
• Once per week if the route amounts to 10 – 48

Bases will only export supply which is viewed as surplus. Supply in excess of 3x the amount required by the base is considered surplus. This surplus supply may go to another base or be consumed by LCUs in the field.

The amount of supply which can be delivered by a Transport plane or Level Bomber is (Maximum Load)/2000. Fractions are rounded down but each plane can always deliver a minimum of 1 supply point.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I don´t know the mechanic of it but I never had any issues that I can remember. [:)] Neither had Erik when he had to keep his troops supplied from Bangkok.

I had maxed out Chittagong and Akyab and all the bases on the border to Burma though. That probably helped!

It's one of the main things I remember from way back when I was learning, then decided I didn't really want to get into the nitty-gritty I just wanted to know the basics of how it worked.

From that thread by Alfred, which pretty much says the info from the manual in a much better way:

Supply will not move automatically overland through a hexside owned by the enemy nor through a contested hex.
How often supply will automatically move overland depends on the quality of the overland transportation links. The table in s.8.3.1 of the manual details the cost of moving supply through the different terrain types and transportation infrastructure.

Each overland transportation route has a value which is determined by subtracting from 100 the cost of movement associated with each hex along which the supply must travel. The value of the overland route then determines how often a delivery is made:

• Four times per week if the overland transportation route amounts to 89 - 100
• Two times per week if the route amounts to 49 – 88
• Once per week if the route amounts to 10 – 48

Bases will only export supply which is viewed as surplus. Supply in excess of 3x the amount required by the base is considered surplus. This surplus supply may go to another base or be consumed by LCUs in the field.

The amount of supply which can be delivered by a Transport plane or Level Bomber is (Maximum Load)/2000. Fractions are rounded down but each plane can always deliver a minimum of 1 supply point.

Just loaded up an interim save. Check it out. Supply cost is:

Clr - 10
Jg - 20
JR - 25



Aside from mis-remembering what size Akyab is, the important thing is that he will have a score of (100 - 20 - 20 - 25) = 35, which means once per week supply shipments from Akyab or any base farther up.

On the other hand, Prome's yellow "!" is temporary - the 110th Division just arrived there this turn - and should be able to ship out supply. The equation for me will result in a "score" of 50 (100 - 25 - 25), meaning two shipments of supply per week.

And just because he might move into the clear doesn't make his supply situation any easier, as the supply still has to come from behind those jungle hexes.

122 Helens bombed Akyab last turn. I could stand to get more AF damage with that many bombers going... but I am also going from a high altitude to avoid flak. I didn't lose any. The screenshot is actually a day old already. I have another 31 Helens I could order to bomb also, should I choose, without transferring more in.

[Lokasenna]

September 13, 1943

Another TF arrives at Tabiteuea to unload, and it's those fast black xAKs. More supply. There's lots of USN sighted via sub and flying boat to the east of Tabit and Tarawa about 10 hexes. Only 4 subs remaining in the area to try for attacks and recon on what's there, in specifics. USN CVs gone for 3+ turns now.

Firebombing continues at Chungking and Lanchow at night, but still no damage from the small amount of fires started.

122 Helens bomb Akyab, as mentioned in my last post [:)]. Damage should be more than the 5 reported yesterday, which was from a mere 31 bombers.

We land some SNLF at Dagua, which we foolishly left in Allied hands. It'll be ours tomorrow, as will Sarmi. The only dot bases within our perimeter on the entire map that we didn't capture before now. Aside from that bugged dot base outside Salajar/Makassar that you can't seem to amphibiously invade (it has to be bugged, right?).

The forced shock attack at Tabiteuea captures the base. We lifted out portions of the other Naval Guard unit, the Guards Depot Division, and the 5th Air Division. Since the base is no longer ours, I can't lift out fragments anymore, so the Special Base Force and the Engineering/Airfield units will have to be rebuilt from nothing. Oh well.

The 2 Mogamis and 3 DDs sink APDs Alden and Barker outside Car Nicobar, at 41,61. Hard to tell if he was evacuating the island, or bringing in more token troops for another of the islands. Regardless, they're dead. 570 casualties reported, but I'm pretty sure those APDs only carry 180 each.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Clr - 10
Jg - 20
JR - 25



Aside from mis-remembering what size Akyab is, the important thing is that he will have a score of (100 - 20 - 20 - 25) = 35, which means once per week supply shipments from Akyab or any base farther up.

I should note that I am assuming here that the supply must first flow east from Akyab, rather than southeast, as that is the route that LCUs are forced to take. You can't move an LCU SE from Akyab, so I am assuming that supply must follow the same rules... I don't see why it wouldn't?

[Lowpe]

Okay, I am going to go out on a limb here, and risk the wrath of Alfred, by saying what you are quoting is the rules for supplies to travel from base to base.

From base to troops in the field is different I believe. And Akyab is a port too, which means it can be getting lots of supply shipped in.

The bases are built up to receive lots of supply from ships, and that supply is flowing down the dirt road daily to those troops.

So, in other words, you can't count on them being out of supply.[;)]

[Lowpe]

I just want to point out that you are insane to have Pegu empty.[X(]

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Okay, I am going to go out on a limb here, and risk the wrath of Alfred, by saying what you are quoting is the rules for supplies to travel from base to base.

From base to troops in the field is different I believe. And Akyab is a port too, which means it can be getting lots of supply shipped in.

The bases are built up to receive lots of supply from ships, and that supply is flowing down the dirt road daily to those troops.

So, in other words, you can't count on them being out of supply.[;)]

Why should the rules be any different? Demand is demand, and the mechanism for transportation seems to be the same. I'd point out that the quote from Alfred there doesn't say that it's only for base-to-base, just the cost of supplies moving along a particular route.

As for ship-borne supply... it has been coming in to Cox's periodically, on small ships (no big ones), and I think also coming in to Chittagong even though it is on the railroad network. I keep 9/10 or 10/10 DL on Akyab, Cox's, Chittagong, and bases to the NE of there daily. I have all these recon planes, I may as well put them to use... in any case, he's never had ships at Akyab. He can't control the air above Akyab, Cox's, and to a lesser extent Chittagong. Every time he's tried, I've swept him aside from George, Frank, and Jack. He did try dropping supply at Akyab many moons ago, but I sunk or damaged the ships and he hasn't tried again.

It's true I can't count on the units being low on supply, but I am betting on it - at least compared to my own supply situation. I think it's a reasonable bet. I've laid out why. You guys don't have to believe me. But for posterity's sake, whenever this little scrap ends, I'll ask Bullwinkle about it and we'll compare. I'll bet somebody a machine gun cruiser I'm right [;)].

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I just want to point out that you are insane to have Pegu empty.[X(]

It won't be for long [;)]. Besides that, he hasn't reconned it. I check it when I check up on the area, which I do daily now given the action.

I know the Allied OOB from my 2 games (which are both in January 1944), and I know he doesn't have the number of transport planes necessary to feed his troops near Myitkyina and Akyab and drop and reinforce and supply at Prome. Not yet. Maybe in early '44 he will.

On top of that, the paratroopers don't stand up all that well to tanks. If he dropped at Pegu I would swiftly crush him. Very few of my tanks are elsewhere.

I'm finally getting the engineers up here through Thailand.

[Lowpe]

From Bullwinkle:

I believe the real issue is tangential to this point. It has long been recognized that LCUs in the field are often easier to keep in supply than those in bases. This is less due to the factor you cite, and more--and I believe this was proven years ago in the game's lifespan--that LCUs in the field will draw from ALL bases in supply range, while an LCU in garrison will only draw from the base it's in.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

From Bullwinkle:

I believe the real issue is tangential to this point. It has long been recognized that LCUs in the field are often easier to keep in supply than those in bases. This is less due to the factor you cite, and more--and I believe this was proven years ago in the game's lifespan--that LCUs in the field will draw from ALL bases in supply range, while an LCU in garrison will only draw from the base it's in.

IIRC the developers confirmed this and very specifically decided to keep it that way.

[HansBolter]

In my current BTS game at Nov '43 I have almost completely rid China of the Japanese.

Burma never fell and I have been shipping in huge quantities of supply to Rangoon all game long.

I'm currently fighting over the last few bases in northern China and prepping a drive into Manchukuo.

I still have trouble getting supply into bases in the northeast. I find that my Group Army stacks have a far easier time getting sufficient supply for an attack by being out in the field and NOT in the bases.

I'm preparing a massive Big Blue Fleet supply mission to Shanghia to create a sufficient supply dump to be able to start a bombing campaign against Japan and feed the drive into Manchkuo.

LCUs DEFINITELY have an easier time drawing supply out in the field.

[Lowpe]

Here is from a single player game I started to show supply point cost...



My point is there are a lot of potential bases within supply range to feed the troops on that dirt road.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

From Bullwinkle:

I believe the real issue is tangential to this point. It has long been recognized that LCUs in the field are often easier to keep in supply than those in bases. This is less due to the factor you cite, and more--and I believe this was proven years ago in the game's lifespan--that LCUs in the field will draw from ALL bases in supply range, while an LCU in garrison will only draw from the base it's in.

Yes...and? It's still only going to come once a week from said bases in range, and said bases all have to have >3* supply on the day in question.

A better question would be - does anyone know what the maximum range to draw from is? Did I miss it somewhere?

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Here is from a single player game I started to show supply point cost...



My point is there are a lot of potential bases within supply range to feed the troops on that dirt road.

Apparently I don't know that hotkey.

[JocMeister]

Loka, I understand your reasoning. I´m just saying he won´t have supply issues unless something changed since my game with Erik. [:)]

I just checked my AAR. I moved 11500 AV into Burma and never had any problems with supply. Granted I don´t remember how much fighting was done in Burma before I captured Ramree. But after Ramree was captured we had some very heavy fighting and I think I ended up supplying almost 20k AV in Burma.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

From Bullwinkle:

I believe the real issue is tangential to this point. It has long been recognized that LCUs in the field are often easier to keep in supply than those in bases. This is less due to the factor you cite, and more--and I believe this was proven years ago in the game's lifespan--that LCUs in the field will draw from ALL bases in supply range, while an LCU in garrison will only draw from the base it's in.

Yes...and? It's still only going to come once a week from said bases in range, and said bases all have to have >3* supply on the day in question.

A better question would be - does anyone know what the maximum range to draw from is? Did I miss it somewhere?

No. That is only for sending supply to other bases. For sending supply to units there is no minimum that the bases maintain. IIRC there was, but it was done away with as units were literally starving to death even while the base they were in or near had plenty of supply.

[Lowpe]

Lok,

The hotkey is 5. It only works in single player, since it gives too much information away.

The supply mechanic for supplying troops in the field is different. Not the same as supplying bases. They will draw from bases with less the x3 supply, heck, they will draw every day.

Your bombing might reduce the AA supply present, but it will barely scratch the supply levels for the the infantry and tanks. You may even see a malus for supply, but that shows up if only one unit is low on supply which in this case will be AA.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Lok,

The hotkey is 5. It only works in single player, since it gives too much information away.

The supply mechanic for supplying troops in the field is different. Not the same as supplying bases. They will draw from bases with less the x3 supply, heck, they will draw every day.

Your bombing might reduce the AA supply present, but it will barely scratch the supply levels for the the infantry and tanks. You may even see a malus for supply, but that shows up if only one unit is low on supply which in this case will be AA.

Their draw still follows the range rules: short range = 4 days/week, medium range = 2 days/week. long range = 1 day/week, and those are cumulative. Only a unit at short range from a base will draw every day (providing the base has anything).

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Lok,

The hotkey is 5. It only works in single player, since it gives too much information away.

The supply mechanic for supplying troops in the field is different. Not the same as supplying bases. They will draw from bases with less the x3 supply, heck, they will draw every day.

Your bombing might reduce the AA supply present, but it will barely scratch the supply levels for the the infantry and tanks. You may even see a malus for supply, but that shows up if only one unit is low on supply which in this case will be AA.

Their draw still follows the range rules: short range = 4 days/week, medium range = 2 days/week. long range = 1 day/week, and those are cumulative. Only a unit at short range from a base will draw every day (providing the base has anything).

Ah yes, hotkey 5 and not working in PBEM. Duh, I remember that being talked about now.

I don't recall the change to being able to draw from bases with less than the 3* required supply. Was it in a beta, or what?

Because I know that my units in Burma in my Allied games don't exactly have great supply. Not zero, but red numbers are not uncommon at all.