Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

[Lowpe]

That is nothing at Singers, you can easily ship it out of there. Using the magic highway is really super gamey anyhow.[:)]

You can ship it to Hong Kong if you like, from there it isn't that difficult to get it to flow to Fusan or Port Arthur or Shanghai or Nagasaki/Shimoneski. Singers makes for a nice big port to load those tonan whalers.

How fast are you thinking of knocking China out? You have to take the Chungking, clear the mtns, then march to somewhere useful. Not a fast prospect.

Anyhow, congrats on doing so well...I see you are worried about Hokkaido![:D] Just remember, the Allies will pretty much bypass your strongpoints! So, if you are strong at Hokkaido, he may go for Sumatra first. Pretty impossible to be strong everywhere.

[vicberg]

That is nothing at Singers, you can easily ship it out of there. Using the magic highway is really super gamey anyhow.

I don't believe that the magic highway is gamey since Japan was going to use it in the actual war. It's why they launched a massive campaign with 17 divisions to take Changsha.

However, I have no choice. I'll have to start shipping out of Singapore

[vicberg]

How fast are you thinking of knocking China out? You have to take the Chungking, clear the mtns, then march to somewhere useful. Not a fast prospect.

The Chinese units facing the 15th Army are depleted badly. They lost 8k in casualties from the 15th Army yesterday. There's only 1 division and 1 tank regiment from the 15th Army, but it will be enough to take Paoshan.

The units facing the 25th Army are also badly depleted. The first attack on Kunming caused 5k in casualties to 500 to me, which has been pretty much par for the course. He's badly over-stacked there. I'm expecting no more than 1 month to take the remaining cities including Changsha.

Wenchow will still hold and I'm debating on focusing on taking it or just letting it live in obscurity. It is really worth the effort? I will take 10+ Army bomber sentai and take out all remaining supply there. He's already at 6 level forts (possibly higher) in Wenchow, so I just might let that city live.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: vicberg

That is nothing at Singers, you can easily ship it out of there. Using the magic highway is really super gamey anyhow.

I don't believe that the magic highway is gamey since Japan was going to use it in the actual war. It's why they launched a massive campaign with 17 divisions to take Changsha.

However, I have no choice. I'll have to start shipping out of Singapore

How much fuel and oil did they ship by a combination of train/vehicle/cart from Singers to Fusan?

[vicberg]

They launched the operation in 1944 (google Ichi-Go) for the express purpose of moving resources/fuel/oil overland. By then, the Allies had Saipan and had launched their strategic bombing campaign. It was too little too late.

The point is, Japan had the idea of doing this in the real war and would not have committed 17 division to the operation if they didn't think it was important. They should have done it in 42.

So there's no way to tell what the full affect would have been. Another "what if"

[Lowpe]

My point would be that without a railroad it would be an impossible task. And even then it would be very hard.

[vicberg]

I do know that the rail system in 1944 is different than reflected in WITP, whether is was built out during the war or otherwise (for game balance). The rail system existed from Liuchow/Hong Kong clear to Manchuko via Changsha and the goal of the operation was to enable resource movement from DEI/Malaysia into ports closer to Japan. So obviously, they felt that it was worth the effort and achievable.

Now, realism and WITP aren't the same. You can't interdict supply movement with bombing the same way in WITP. Guerrillas aren't reflected either. Both caused the Japanese issues post-operation. And though the operation was a resounding success, it happened too late in the war to have any impact. However, the magic road was real in terms of Japanese thought. So I'm not convinced at all that it's gamey.

[GetAssista]

Japan was not really good at running railroads on occupied territories it seems. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Railway was built successfully, but transported woefully few cargos because of all the issues with steamers/security/track quality. I doubt they could pull off anything large enough on the "magic highway" to matter for the Home Islands industry in reality. Certainly not with oil

[vicberg]

Yep...the magic road is a big what if. No way to tell if it could have worked since it happened too late. Plus, the game doesn't model supply interdiction, etc...

Doesn't matter for me because the resource AI is pretty much not giving me much. Going to have to transport out of Singers now.

[vicberg]

June 3rd, 1942

Not so End Game in China

Well, the attack against Chungking was pretty much a disaster. I decided to shock to support the 2 divs crossing the river. Wish I hadn't crossed the river nor done a shock attack. This will push the campaign out a month. The 12th Army still has 4 divisions and 3 brigades all in strong shape and there's a division, brigade and 2 arm regiments just north of Chungking, so I'm not without reinforcements, but now I need to wait for the 12th Army and rebuild a bit.

Ground combat at Chungking (76,45)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 66605 troops, 695 guns, 526 vehicles, Assault Value = 2359

Defending force 145441 troops, 822 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 4101

Japanese adjusted assault: 363

Allied adjusted defense: 13073

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 36 (fort level 6)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), leaders(+), preparation(-)
experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
29502 casualties reported
Squads: 732 destroyed, 636 disabled
Non Combat: 115 destroyed, 675 disabled
Engineers: 124 destroyed, 67 disabled
Guns lost 134 (51 destroyed, 83 disabled)
Vehicles lost 424 (198 destroyed, 226 disabled)
Units destroyed 3

Allied ground losses:
1540 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 136 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 29 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled
Guns lost 16 (1 destroyed, 15 disabled)

Assaulting units:
13th Division
9th Division
9th Tank Regiment
5th Tank Regiment
8th Ind Engineer Regiment
5th Armored Car Co
6th Division
13th Tank Regiment
2nd Ind Engineer Regiment
23rd Tank Regiment
26th Division
3rd Division
15th Tank Regiment
40th Division
39th Division
10th Tank Regiment
1st Army
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
1st Mortar Battalion
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
11th Army
23rd Army
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
3rd Mortar Battalion

Defending units:
82nd Chinese Corps
8th Construction Regiment
20th Chinese Corps
42nd Chinese Corps
95th Chinese Corps
1st Chinese Cavalry Corps
83rd Chinese Corps
23rd Chinese Corps
33rd Chinese Corps
22nd Chinese Corps
17th Chinese Corps
39th Chinese Corps
69th Chinese Corps
51st Chinese Corps
47th Chinese Corps
14th Chinese Corps
96th Chinese Corps
89th Chinese Corps
55th Chinese Corps
56th Chinese Corps
34th Separate Brigade
92nd Chinese Corps
77th Chinese Corps
12th Chinese Corps
15th Chinese Corps
12th Construction Regiment
Lusu War Area
1st War Area
22nd Artillery Regiment
41st AA Regiment
56th AT Gun Regiment
1st Construction Regiment
Central Reserve
4th Heavy Mortar Regiment
1st Artillery Regiment
49th AA Regiment
2nd Group Army
CAF HQ
7th Artillery Regiment
China Command
6th Group Army
3rd Heavy Mortar Regiment
4th Chinese Base Force

[Lowpe]

Chungking is not easy, as you have found out.[:(]


Forts are always good to start, the defending troops are mostly at 100 prep, there is usually good fully prepped HQ chain present. If there is supply it is even worse.

His defense was multiplied more than 3 times. While yours suffered greatly.

Given stacking limits, you don't even need to shock into Chungking. Surround, bomb, bombard, and starve while prep builds to 100. Lessons learned the hard way.

[vicberg]

You are right. It will be a month as I assemble the 12th Army Divisions there and prep to 100%. Can't get over confident in this game. It will give you humility in a hearbeat

[ny59giants]

Hope you have the China Command HQ prepping for Chungking. You will need the additional 90% Adjusted AV from it.

[Lowpe]

When I fought for Chungking, I waited for 100 prep, had three 1 hex range HQs, one 5 hex HQ and 1 9 hex HQ all 100 prepped for it. Lots and lots of artillery, tanks instead of engineering units, and had bombed, bombarded and surrounded it for quite a while. I think it took about 6-8 weeks from the first attack and 7 attacks total.

Take heart, the first attack is usually the worst![;)]

[vicberg]

Wow...well I don't have quite that much. China Command is prepping for Chungking. So is North Army HQ. 3 Corp HQs and eventually 10 divisions (or 9 depending on stacking) plus tanks and arty.

He looks to be moving some units out of Chungking. If so, that will make my job a bit easier.

I was over confident and dumb. Crossing a major river (didn't see the MAJOR river) into Chungking. I shocked in order to support them. Lesson learned.

[vicberg]

Also June 3rd, 1942

Second Attack on Kunming

A 1-1 and reduced forts by 1

Ground combat at Kunming (69,48)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 19139 troops, 341 guns, 491 vehicles, Assault Value = 639

Defending force 57477 troops, 186 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 919

Japanese adjusted assault: 415

Allied adjusted defense: 403

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 4)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 3

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
635 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 48 disabled
Non Combat: 7 destroyed, 31 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 14 disabled
Vehicles lost 75 (14 destroyed, 61 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
3506 casualties reported
Squads: 230 destroyed, 41 disabled
Non Combat: 50 destroyed, 58 disabled
Engineers: 6 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 16 (9 destroyed, 7 disabled)

Assaulting units:
19th Ind Engineer Regiment
8th Tank Regiment
1st Tank Regiment
4th Tank Regiment
8th Armored Car Co
56th Division
6th Tank Regiment
1st RF Gun Battalion
3rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
3rd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
5th RF Gun Battalion
18th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd RF Gun Battalion
21st Mortar Battalion
5th Mortar Battalion
14th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion

Defending units:
52nd Chinese Corps
44th Chinese Corps
54th Chinese Corps
86th Chinese Corps
64th Chinese Corps
67th Chinese Corps
43rd Chinese Corps
84th Chinese Corps
94th Chinese Corps
73rd Chinese Corps
6th Construction Regiment
35th Group Army
6th War Area
1st Chinese Base Force
16th Group Army
62nd Chinese Corps
9th Group Army
9th War Area
87th Chinese Corps
11th Chinese Base Force
4th War Area
32nd Chinese Corps
45th Chinese Corps
11th Group Army
26th Group Army
31st Chinese Corps
16th Chinese Base Force

[vicberg]

So two questions. 1) is Preparation a die roll to see if they get a bonus?, 2) I JUST noticed accuracy on my bombers. It does't seem to correspond to experience as some of my units are more experienced but less accurate. Where does this number come from. They are all the same model.

[vicberg]

June 5th, 1942

25th Army

Kunming is about to fall. 1 day of rest and another attack. Armor, Arty and the 56 Division (380 AV) attacking.

Ground combat at Kunming (69,48)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 18658 troops, 341 guns, 478 vehicles, Assault Value = 566

Defending force 53778 troops, 174 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 762

Japanese adjusted assault: 421

Allied adjusted defense: 334

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 3)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), preparation(-), fatigue(-)
experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
583 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 31 disabled
Non Combat: 6 destroyed, 25 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 12 disabled
Vehicles lost 49 (10 destroyed, 39 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
3452 casualties reported
Squads: 109 destroyed, 46 disabled
Non Combat: 116 destroyed, 52 disabled
Engineers: 3 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 19 (13 destroyed, 6 disabled)
Units destroyed 1

1st, 23rd and 11th Armies

Units just north of Chungking.

Ground combat at 77,44 (near Chungking)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 18770 troops, 165 guns, 141 vehicles, Assault Value = 433

Defending force 18941 troops, 90 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 162

Japanese adjusted assault: 274

Allied adjusted defense: 49

Japanese assault odds: 5 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: disruption(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
419 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 40 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled

Allied ground losses:
5857 casualties reported
Squads: 348 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 253 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 11 destroyed, 15 disabled
Guns lost 19 (7 destroyed, 12 disabled)
Units retreated 4

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

15th Army

The 33rd Division crossed the river.

Ground combat at Paoshan (65,45)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 12163 troops, 98 guns, 93 vehicles, Assault Value = 354

Defending force 36203 troops, 111 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 678

Japanese adjusted assault: 207

Allied adjusted defense: 367

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 3)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-), fatigue(-)

Japanese ground losses:
1807 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 119 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 19 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 15 disabled
Guns lost 5 (1 destroyed, 4 disabled)
Vehicles lost 5 (3 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
639 casualties reported
Squads: 41 destroyed, 12 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: vicberg

So two questions. 1) is Preparation a die roll to see if they get a bonus?, 2) I JUST noticed accuracy on my bombers. It does't seem to correspond to experience as some of my units are more experienced but less accurate. Where does this number come from. They are all the same model.

Kind of sorta, more of a check. It is more than luck, but luck can be involved.

No where enough information to help with 2.

[vicberg]

If you look at the details of the bomber group, there's an accuracy %. I don't know if that's how accurate the group is is or rather a reflection of how accurate they have been.