Jdsrae just for reference. I'm about a month and a half ahead of you. I can project that i will get the A6M5c by 6/12/42. I chose not to shoot for the A6M5.
I think you're both going to find rough sledding on this path. Especially if your allied opponents are aggressive. The A6M5c is good, but it's also slower and has less range than the A6M5. I use both when I have them. The main point is that you can get the A6M5 so much earlier at no extra cost, just that the 5c comes a bit later. It's worth that trade.
Thanks for the prompt gents, I've looked back into this and the main dilemma is the extra speed of the A6M5 vs the slower but armoured A6M5c. I don't know what is better, so my preference is to get armour, especially seeing as the fleet carriers will be in defensive mode from about mid-1943 anyway.
Not sure if the RADM means 6 Dec 42 or 12 Jun 42. I don't think Jun 42 is possible, but 6 Dec 42 is achievable for A6M5c to start production with about 400-500 engines used to help research. I don't think I am going to have that many engines spare for research but haven't calculated that detail. Maybe half that for me, so about Feb 43 is my estimate for actual A6M5c production start.
If I put 3x30 research into the A6M5 now I would get it in late Nov 42 with no engine bonus. That would provide a significant edge over Wildcats for about 6-8 months. Something that would definitely help the IJN in any CV vs CV battle that the allies allow to happen during late 1942.
If I stick with plan A, 4x30 research on the A6M5c gets it in Apr 43 with no engine bonus, so a few months earlier with some engine bonus. The in game database says that the Hellcat arrives in Apr 43 and I think the carrier capable Corsairs in about Oct 43. So my A6M2s will only ever be coming up against Wildcat variants through 1942, but my newly arriving A6M5c won't have longer than a few months to take on Wildcats before Hellcats start replacing them.
Also, my 8x30 George-1 research factories should get it into production about Mar 43 with no engine bonus, a bit earlier with some engine bonus . That means I should be facing Hellcats and Corsairs with land based Georges and carrier based armoured Zeros, with the A6M2 relegated to training and rear area duties.
I'm going to stick with the 4x30 research on A6M5c, but am probably just giving Obvert another opportunity to say "I told you so" in about 18 months time!
You're treating this as an either/or when it's a both. With the A6M you research the next version as fast as possible while making the current one. You have some research factories that stay as research and some that convert to production. You're not going to stop with the A6M5c anyway, and will want to get the A6M8 as quickly as possible after that. Then the Sam.
I'll be shocked if you don't have a carrier fight in late 42 or early 43. Very few Allied players wait for the Hellcat to do anything.
So get the A6M5 in late 42 and the A6M5c in mid-43. Then the A6M8 ASAP after that.
You're looking at armour as some kind of magic solution. Durability difference of 5 points, better range, and a jump in speed of 20mph is going to do more for you than armour.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
You're treating this as an either/or when it's a both. With the A6M you research the next version as fast as possible while making the current one. You have some research factories that stay as research and some that convert to production. You're not going to stop with the A6M5c anyway, and will want to get the A6M8 as quickly as possible after that. Then the Sam.
Any research on the A6M5 delays the arrival of the A6M5c, and I feel that any plane without armour by 1943 should only be used for training.
I have 8x30 factories on the Sam which will have it arriving in mid 44 about the same time that researched A6M8s would arrive anyway, and I want to produce 120 x A6M5c / month asap for CV ops, so won't keep any research factories for the A6M8. I might make some A6M8 when it arrives in late 45 by upgrading the old A6M2 factories, but will have Sams, George-5s and even Shindens in production by then so the A6M8 will be effectively obsolete by the time it arrives.
ORIGINAL: obvert
I'll be shocked if you don't have a carrier fight in late 42 or early 43. Very few Allied players wait for the Hellcat to do anything. So get the A6M5 in late 42 and the A6M5c in mid-43. Then the A6M8 ASAP after that.
A carrier battle in that period in this game will see A6M2s vs Wildcats. I do agree that the A6M5 would be better than the A6M2 during this timeframe, but at least in this game I don't want to delay the 5c arrival date. I should also be operating the KB along the perimeter of the empire by then, so may be able to call on LRCAP support from land based A6M2s, Nicks or Tojos which should all be very competitive vs Wildcats.
CS has mentioned in a few recent emails that 1943 can't come soon enough for him, so he is either setting up a bluff or he is going to build up his strength and wait until early 1943 before making big moves forward.
ORIGINAL: obvert
You're looking at armour as some kind of magic solution. Durability difference of 5 points, better range, and a jump in speed of 20mph is going to do more for you than armour.
I am prioritising armour above all else, but am conscious of the trade off of speed and range to get it. The sooner the A7M2 Sam arrives the better!
 
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Feb 20, 42
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Invasion Support action off Bandjermasin (60,99)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force
3 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
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TF 189 encounters mine field at Bataan (78,77)
AMc Zuikai Maru
AMc Tokihime Maru
AMc Tenshin
38 mines cleared
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Sub attack near Batavia at 49,97
Japanese Ships
xAK Tatutaki Maru, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage – she’ll survive but has moderate damage.
PB Kyo Maru #8
xAK Teiyo Maru
PB Kosin Maru #3
PB Nanrei Maru
Allied Ships
SS KXV, hits 2
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Night Naval bombardment of Bandjermasin at 60,99
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Pre-Invasion action off Samarinda (65,96) - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force
56 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
CA Maya
DD Hibiki
xAP Hoten Maru, Shell hits 1. Moderate damage.
DD Akatsuki
xAP Dairen Maru
xAP Ukishima Maru
CA Maya firing at Balikpapan Base Force
Balikpapan Base Force firing at CA Maya
DD Hibiki firing at Balikpapan Base Force
Balikpapan Base Force firing at DD Hibiki
75mm CD Gun Battery engaging xAP Hoten Maru at 5,000 yards
DD Akatsuki firing to suppress enemy battery at 5,000 yards
DD Akatsuki firing to suppress enemy battery at 5,000 yards
CA Maya firing to suppress enemy battery at 5,000 yards
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 5,000 yards
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 1,000 yards
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Amphibious Assault at Samarinda (65,96)
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Invasion Support action off Bandjermasin (60,99)
5 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Balikpapan at 66,98
SS Permit is sighted by escort
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Invasion Support action off Bandjermasin (60,99)
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ASW attack near Suva at 131,161
SS I-26 is located by DD Porter
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TF 405 encounters mine field at Kwajalein Island (132,115)
PB Hirota Maru
1 mine cleared
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Sub attack near Darwin at 76,124
SS I-121, hits 2
Allied Ships
AM Ipswich
Captain of SS I-121 elects not to launch torpedoes at this target
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Morning Air attack on Port Moresby , at 98,130 – it’s time to start working on the Port Moresby defenders.
A6M2 Zero x 27
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 25
P-40E Warhawk: 4 destroyed
20th PS (P) with P-40E Warhawk (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 17 scrambling)
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Morning Air attack on Port Moresby , at 98,130
A6M2 Zero x 3
Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 2
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed
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Morning Air attack on 100th Chinese Corps, at 89,58 (Wenchow)
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Morning Air attack on 70th Chinese Corps, at 89,58 (Wenchow)
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Morning Air attack on 1st Raiding Regiment, at 69,48 (Kunming) – LRCAP failed to fly
Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 23
Blenheim IV: 1 damaged
Japanese ground losses:
4 casualties reported
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled – I can’t afford any damage to the engineers!
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Afternoon Air attack on Batavia , at 49,98
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Afternoon Air attack on Tarakan Base Force, at 67,92 , near Tarakan
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Afternoon Air attack on 49th Chinese Corps, at 89,58 (Wenchow)
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Afternoon Air attack on 100th Chinese Corps, at 89,58 (Wenchow)
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ASW attack near Donggala at 68,97
SS S-39 launches 2 torpedoes at PB Eifuku Maru
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Sub attack near Coffs Harbour at 95,164
SS I-28
Allied Ships
PG Charleston, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
SS I-28 launches 2 torpedoes
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Ground combat at Sian (83,41)
Japanese Deliberate attack
Attacking force 73822 troops, 810 guns, 1282 vehicles, Assault Value = 2658
Defending force 52139 troops, 270 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1456
Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 2
Japanese adjusted assault: 2492
Allied adjusted defense: 2735
Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 2) - close to 1:1, at least forts are reduced
Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker:
Japanese ground losses:
2624 casualties reported
Squads: 7 destroyed, 272 disabled – spread across 5 x Divisions, so manageable.
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 34 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 37 disabled
Vehicles lost 42 (2 destroyed, 40 disabled)
Allied ground losses:
7200 casualties reported
Squads: 297 destroyed, 437 disabled – this should swing the next AV ratio to at least 1:1
Non Combat: 19 destroyed, 207 disabled
Engineers: 8 destroyed, 39 disabled
Guns lost 86 (9 destroyed, 77 disabled)
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Ground combat at Changsha (82,52)
Japanese Bombardment attack
Attacking force 3297 troops, 302 guns, 157 vehicles, Assault Value = 2751
Defending force 64722 troops, 329 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1894
Allied ground losses:
153 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 8 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
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Ground combat at Tsiaotso (88,42)
Japanese Bombardment attack
Attacking force 2640 troops, 107 guns, 253 vehicles, Assault Value = 1438
Defending force 46005 troops, 258 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1425
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Ground combat at 83,45 (near Nanyang)
Japanese Bombardment attack
Attacking force 13160 troops, 136 guns, 52 vehicles, Assault Value = 451
Defending force 11398 troops, 126 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 238
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Ground combat at Bandjermasin (60,99)
Japanese Deliberate attack
Attacking force 1768 troops, 25 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 62
Defending force 777 troops, 3 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 26
Japanese adjusted assault: 55
Allied adjusted defense: 10
Japanese assault odds: 5 to 1 (fort level 1)
Japanese forces CAPTURE Bandjermasin !!!
Japanese ground losses:
19 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Allied ground losses:
231 casualties reported
Squads: 6 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 26 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 3 (3 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units retreated 1
Units destroyed 1
Assaulting units:
Sasebo 1st SNLF
Sasebo 2nd SNLF
Defending units:
SE Borneo KNIL Battalion – retreated inland
Bandjermasin Base Force - destroyed
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Ground combat at Samarinda (65,96)
Japanese Deliberate attack
Attacking force 2117 troops, 27 guns, 2 vehicles, Assault Value = 139
Defending force 1400 troops, 50 guns, 2 vehicles, Assault Value = 20
Japanese adjusted assault: 35
Allied adjusted defense: 14
Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 1)
Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 0 – next attack will do it
Japanese ground losses:
71 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 6 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Allied ground losses:
113 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 6 disabled
Assaulting units:
Yokosuka 2nd SNLF
Yokosuka 3rd SNLF
Yokosuka 4th SNLF
12th Air Defense AA Regiment
Defending units:
VI KNIL Battalion
Samarinda KNIL Battalion
Balikpapan Base Force
Samarinda Base Force
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OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR Feb 20, 42
Pakanbaroe is occupied by the Japanese
SS I-121 lays minefield at Darwin ( 76 , 124) and sets course for Singapore
G3M2 Nell from Bihoro Ku K-1 attacking an Allied SS at 49,97 a KVIII Class class SS is reported HIT
2 x H6K2-L Mavis transporting Yokosuka 1st SNLF from Trinkat
2 x H6K2-L Mavis transporting Yokosuka 1st SNLF from Car Nicobar
2 x H6K2-L Mavis transporting Yokosuka 1st SNLF from Great Nicobar
Japanese forces CAPTURE Bandjermasin !!!
Kobe expands fortifications to size 1
Brunei expands fortifications to size 2
AM Pieter de Bitter is reported to have been sunk near Soerabaja on Dec 15, 1941
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Feb 21, 42
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TF 223 encounters mine field at Kwajalein Island (132,115)
AMc Tama Maru #3
5 mines cleared
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TF 487 encounters mine field at Darwin (76,124) – we found each others latest sub laid minefields!
Allied Ships
AM Ipswich
2 mines cleared
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TF 207 encounters mine field at Manila (79,77) - at the end of the turn allied minefields at both Bataan and Manila seem to have been cleared. Numerous transport ships waiting a few hexes away are ordered to Manila to pick up 14th Army for their move to PNG. KB is scraping barnacles at Singapore and will move to Truk to provide air cover in a few days.
AMc Yasushima Maru
AMc Urashio Maru
AMc Ogashima
20 mines cleared
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Sub attack near Fukue-jima at 100,59
PB Bunzan Maru
SS Tautog launches 2 torpedoes
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Night Naval bombardment of Woodlark Island at 104,133 - second appearance for this RAN/RN/RNZN task force. I'm guessing they are based at Townsville. KB will be looking for them in about 10 days.
Allied Ships
CA Canberra
CA Australia
CL Mauritius
CL Perth
CL Achilles
CL Leander
Port hits 23
Port supply hits 8
Seagull V acting as spotter for CA Canberra
CA Canberra firing at 7th Indpt SNLF Coy – no damage to the SNLF Coy
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Amphibious Assault at Cape Gloucester (101,125)
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Morning Air attack on Port Moresby , at 98,130
A6M2 Zero x 17 – no CAP over Port Moresby
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 70th Chinese Corps, at 89,58 (Wenchow)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 100th Chinese Corps, at 89,58 (Wenchow)
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Morning Air attack on Batavia , at 49,98
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Morning Air attack on 2nd Raiding Regiment, at 69,48 (Kunming) – no damage done to the Raiders. The airfield damage at Kunming means that I can only fly in paras and the ones on the ground only have a few engineers, so are repairing the airfield very slowly. I won’t quite make the 80 garrison requirement with these 2 x Regts either, so risk partisans damaging the airfield as it is being repaired… I’m going to let the 2 x Raiding Regts keep trying, but 2 x Chinese units of unknown size have arrived so they may be kicked out of Kunming soon.
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 6
Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 10
Blenheim IV: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged
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Morning Air attack on 2nd Raiding Regiment, at 69,48 (Kunming)
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 1
Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 13
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Afternoon Air attack on Batavia , at 49,98
G3M2 Nell x 16
G3M2 Nell: 1 damaged
Allied Ships
xAP Kota Tjandi, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
xAP Glenapp, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
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Afternoon Air attack on 103rd PA Infantry Regiment, at 81,89 , near Butuan
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Afternoon Air attack on 7th Indpt SNLF Coy , at 104,133 (Woodlark Island)
Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 5
Japanese ground losses:
29 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled – only 1 was left disabled when I checked the turn. I am moving more Zeros to Rabaul so will try to ambush these B17s in a few days time.
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Ground combat at 83,45 (near Nanyang) – I spotted the Chinese moving to the W so tried another deliberate attack. They must be moving in combat mode as it didn't work, although I disabled more of them than own troops.
Japanese Deliberate attack
Attacking force 13921 troops, 136 guns, 155 vehicles, Assault Value = 458
Defending force 11437 troops, 126 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 240
Japanese adjusted assault: 234
Allied adjusted defense: 370
Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2
Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), morale(-), experience(-)
Attacker:
Japanese ground losses:
237 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 21 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Allied ground losses:
543 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 42 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 9 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 4 disabled
Guns lost 9 (1 destroyed, 8 disabled)
Assaulting units:
5th Tank Regiment
8th Division
Defending units:
30th Chinese Corps
7th Chinese Corps
84th Chinese Corps
21st Group Army
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Ground combat at Sian (83,41)
Japanese Bombardment attack
Attacking force 3025 troops, 216 guns, 197 vehicles, Assault Value = 2394 – deliberate attack ordered for tomorrow
Defending force 46112 troops, 263 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 975
Japanese ground losses:
Guns lost 4 (1 destroyed, 3 disabled)
Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Allied ground losses:
226 casualties reported
Squads: 29 destroyed, 6 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
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Ground combat at Changsha (82,52)
Japanese Bombardment attack
Attacking force 3289 troops, 302 guns, 157 vehicles, Assault Value = 2754 – 9th Div just arrived from the NE. 10th Div isn’t far behind.
Defending force 64767 troops, 329 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1892
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Ground combat at 87,41 (near Tsiaotso)
Japanese Bombardment attack
Attacking force 495 troops, 35 guns, 29 vehicles, Assault Value = 446
Defending force 40803 troops, 251 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1312 – a few more Chinese units have moved here from Tsiaotso, but still no sign of an attack.
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Ground combat at Tsiaotso (88,42)
Japanese Bombardment attack
Attacking force 2632 troops, 107 guns, 253 vehicles, Assault Value = 1438
Defending force 46077 troops, 258 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1434
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Ground combat at 50,101 (near Tjilatjap)
Japanese Bombardment attack – deliberate attack ordered tomorrow
Attacking force 12484 troops, 113 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 440
Defending force 2755 troops, 73 guns, 27 vehicles, Assault Value = 73
Assaulting units:
4th Division
6th Tank Regiment
Defending units:
Mobiele Eenheid Battalion
4th KNIL Regiment
3rd KNIL AA Battalion
Bandoeng Base Force
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Ground combat at Batavia (49,98)
Japanese Bombardment attack
Attacking force 22165 troops, 226 guns, 95 vehicles, Assault Value = 892 – both 2nd and 18th Divs are about 2 days away.
Defending force 18976 troops, 199 guns, 81 vehicles, Assault Value = 487
Japanese ground losses:
20 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Allied ground losses:
72 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 6 disabled
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Ground combat at Samarinda (65,96) – this effectively ends the Borneo campaign. The only allied base left is the dot hex inland in the NW.
Japanese Deliberate attack
Attacking force 2883 troops, 38 guns, 4 vehicles, Assault Value = 135
Defending force 1306 troops, 50 guns, 2 vehicles, Assault Value = 16
Japanese adjusted assault: 71
Allied adjusted defense: 6
Japanese assault odds: 11 to 1 (fort level 0)
Japanese forces CAPTURE Samarinda !!!
Allied aircraft losses
139WH-3: 1 destroyed
B-339D: 3 destroyed
Japanese ground losses:
12 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Allied ground losses:
1371 casualties reported
Squads: 34 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 73 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 59 (59 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Vehicles lost 2 (2 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 4
Assaulting units:
Yokosuka 2nd SNLF – all SNLF units will move forward
Yokosuka 3rd SNLF
Yokosuka 4th SNLF
12th Air Defense AA Regiment – garrison AA Regt
Defending units:
Samarinda KNIL Battalion
VI KNIL Battalion
Balikpapan Base Force
Samarinda Base Force
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Ground combat at Sinabang (42,76)
Japanese Shock attack
Japanese forces CAPTURE Sinabang !!!
Yokosuka 1st SNLF /1
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Ground combat at Nias (42,79)
Japanese Shock attack
Japanese forces CAPTURE Nias !!!
Yokosuka 1st SNLF /2
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Ground combat at Batoe-eilanden (43,82)
Japanese Shock attack
Japanese forces CAPTURE Batoe-eilanden !!!
Yokosuka 1st SNLF /3
OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR Feb 21, 42
Repairs completed on SS RO-64 at Truk, ship returned to service
2 x H6K2-L Mavis dropping Yokosuka 1st SNLF at Sinabang
2 x H6K2-L Mavis dropping Yokosuka 1st SNLF at Nias
2 x H6K2-L Mavis dropping Yokosuka 1st SNLF at Batoe-eilanden
7 x L3Y2 Tina transporting 2nd Raiding Regiment to Kunming – there are only about 10 Tinas left so this is slow going. I will replace the Tinas with Mavis transports in about Apr 42.
CS Convoy TF 333 begins loading Fuel at Singapore for delivery to Fukuoka – lots of fuel moving from Singapore to Fukuoka with all large TK convoys now set up and running continuously.
Japanese forces CAPTURE Samarinda !!! Only 2 damage to the Oil, so practically untouched.
Japanese forces CAPTURE Sinabang !!!
Japanese forces CAPTURE Nias !!!
Japanese forces CAPTURE Batoe-eilanden !!!
Rabaul expands port to size 4 – I’ll expand the airfield next.
Lingga expands airfield to size 1 – was a dot hex south of Singapore. It has 1 x ACM and some defensive mines to try and close the strait to allied subs.
5th JAAF AF Coy arrives at Tokyo – returns from being destroyed by Singapore’s CD guns.
I agree with obvert on most of these points. Let me throw a couple more in …
DUR vs ARM
1. after about 5/42 I never have had a shortage of fighter pilots. If you assign sufficient resources to your training program, fighter pilots are the easiest to keep in stock (they have the fewest skills to train typically just 2).
2. DUR impacts the ability of a fighter to stay in a battle. low DUR means the fighter will depart the fight early, meaning the other side will get numbers advantage sooner which results in more losses for you.
3. DUR also impacts the ability of a plane to RTB with damage. When a plane fails to RTB, ARM then impacts whether it is KIA or MIA/WIA.
4. ARM impacts the KIA numbers, but not MIA. If you are fighting over enemy base and you have no unit in the hex, you get an MIA instead of KIA. MIA are recovered on like a 1 in 20. Meaning, on offense ARM doesn't save you that many pilots. IF you are fighting over your base, then ARM gives you higher WIA vs KIA results.
I'm glossing over a bunch of other stuff here. The point I am trying to reinforce (and that obvert makes) is do not underestimate the value of DUR. The 20% increase in DUR is worth at least as much as the Armor is if not more in terms of not only saving pilots, but in actually winning battles. ARM will not impact the result of a battle, DUR does.
A6M progression
Somehow the opinion that RnD on the A6M5 slows down the A6M5c. Nothing is further from the truth. The A6M5 is on the path to the A6M5c, thus RnD on the A6M5 indirectly contributes to the A6M5c. RnD via the A6M2-RUFE allows you to upgrade those factories to A6M5 and once that is attained you can upgrade to the b and then the c. This path will generally save you several months of game time.
A) I agree that DUR gets usually overlooked compared to ARM but it's very important.
B) Personally I think you might be overestimating R&D capabilities or maybe misallocating them. In order to have all the A6Ms and the Sam so early, you have to invest a lot. Implying, other than the sheer cost of it, a cost-opportunity with other potentially more important researches.
Going deeper in my Point B. In carrier clashes before '43 I think A6M2 can do pretty well. Simply, after a while, you cannot randomly sail around the map trashing everything but you have to take care of good positioning and so on. Considering that you are going to have a carrier fight after June '42 (Americans got all their CVs for that time and their trianing programmes should have gone far enough), you can still hold your grounds with proper organisation of the fight without the need of more advanced fighters.
There might be more rewarding things to do other than better fighters on the decks. Namely, accelerating the Judy is pretty decisive from my persopective. 250kg bombs just don't do it. 500Kgs give all another feeling.
Same goes with the recon Judy which can save your @ss multiple times.
Accelerating some CVs and CVLs, also, should give you a decent margin over the enemy. Same goes with timely upgrades to CVs. And adding few fighter groups to your complements.
What I do mean is that the whole debate A6M5 vs A6M5c doesn't take into account the very basic question: "should I do it?". Personally, I prefer to get the A6M8 soon (it uses Ha-33 which is not in high demand at the beginning and doesn't make you go into the spiral of oversizing Ha-35 factories) which would be my final embarked fighter. It has the weakness of a lower range, but the speed it's so important that every little bit helps.
In the meanwhile I have few months in which I am no longer like God with my CVs and I have to pay attention to their positioning and so on. Is it a big deal? Well, not that much: Allies have little possibilities to force me in a fight attacking in face of strong positions, so a carrier clash can happen just as a sort of duel far from LBAs. I refuse it and I'm happy enough.
For industrial purposes, also, I prefer to use IJAAF guys in most of my air operations on the land, so I do not have that big need of an advanced fighter for IJNAF. And in raids A6M2 is good enough to do the job.
To recap my general points are:
- Do you really need A6M5/A6M5c?
- Isn't possible to just go on with none of them until you get A6M8s?
- Aren't complementary assets such as DBs almost as important as the fighters per-se?
- What's your strategic and operational posture?
- What's your assessment of the enemy regarding his use of CVs?
- Do A6M5 and A6M5c give you such a big margin over the 'ol good A6M2 to make you invest a lot on them?
- Would you feel unconfortable in going into a carrier fight with A6M2s and confortable with A6M5/A6M5c?
- How does your operational posture, if not strategic, change having A6M5/A6M5c compared to A6M2s for few more months before A6M8s come online?
The fundamental problem with Judy is range, until the D4Y4 and Grace. It gives the allies a real advantage in a CV fight, one that almost always turns out costly for the IJ.
For me, after Oct '42, I really don't want a CV duel as IJ. I want to fight allied CV's with LBA using KB as bait. The KB is very brittle, I've lost so many CV's to a single hit.
The fundamental problem with Judy is range, until the D4Y4 and Grace. It gives the allies a real advantage in a CV fight, one that almost always turns out costly for the IJ.
For me, after Oct '42, I really don't want a CV duel as IJ. I want to fight allied CV's with LBA using KB as bait. The KB is very brittle, I've lost so many CV's to a single hit.
Hi Pax,
I didn't realize range was so important. I was going to shoot for the D4Y4 to get the 800kg bomb but i see that is 6/8 hexes normal/extended. The D4Y3 only has the 500kg bomb but it's range is 7/8 hexes normal/extended. Is that extra hex worth it?
With 5x30 research on Rufe from the start I’ve just moved one to A6M5c. I will keep one to build Rufes.
One way I can have my cake and eat it is to change a few more research factories back to Rufe, to ultimately have 4 on A6M5 and 4 on A6M5c.
I’m actually thinking of moving a few of my non-fighter research factories back to Rufe, they should just have time to repair before changing to A6M5. Supply is starting to grow at Tokyo again, but this will cost about 4K supply / day to repair the new Rufe factories.
I think I have 4 on the Judy now so maybe 2 of them plus 2 others that I’ll find that I haven’t wasted much supply repairing yet.
The thought of A6M5 in about Jul/Aug 42 has been very appealing since Obvert first raised it, and this way I won’t have to delay the armour that I want.
I can’t access the game for about 14 hours so will ponder this some more today.
My main strategic thinking is that Japan needs to try and win the war on points by 1 Jan 44 at the latest, so one aspect of this is that I probably need to force a carrier battle in 1942/43 to get more victory points. The allies may not comply, but I feel I will need to try and force the issue. This is also what the IJN were trying to do historically, and in this game the USN is still intact so they will be a massive threat if I can’t reduce them in 1942. The ABDA CA task force in the Coral Sea is high on that list with about 200 points in it.
Even if I just sink allied merchants, I am planning to conduct a deep raid in both the Pacific and Indian Oceans to hunt for points.
The fundamental problem with Judy is range, until the D4Y4 and Grace. It gives the allies a real advantage in a CV fight, one that almost always turns out costly for the IJ.
For me, after Oct '42, I really don't want a CV duel as IJ. I want to fight allied CV's with LBA using KB as bait. The KB is very brittle, I've lost so many CV's to a single hit.
Hi Pax,
I didn't realize range was so important. I was going to shoot for the D4Y4 to get the 800kg bomb but i see that is 6/8 hexes normal/extended. The D4Y3 only has the 500kg bomb but it's range is 7/8 hexes normal/extended. Is that extra hex worth it?
D4Y4 is what you want. 8 hex with a 500kg bomb is the best you get. D4Y3 is only 7 hex with 500kg.
SBD-5 is 9 hex with 1000lb, SBD-6 is 10 hex. AND their fighters have better range than the A7M … after 10/42 you are fighting with a range DISADVANTAGE, which mean they can hit you and you cannot retaliate. THat is the scenario you enjoy right now until 10/42.
With 5x30 research on Rufe from the start I’ve just moved one to A6M5c. I will keep one to build Rufes.
One way I can have my cake and eat it is to change a few more research factories back to Rufe, to ultimately have 4 on A6M5 and 4 on A6M5c.
I’m actually thinking of moving a few of my non-fighter research factories back to Rufe, they should just have time to repair before changing to A6M5. Supply is starting to grow at Tokyo again, but. Is will cost about 4K supply / day to repair he new Rufe factories.
I think I have 4 on the Judy now so maybe 2 of them plus 2 others that I’ll find that I haven’t wasted much supply repairing yet.
The thought of A6M5 in about Jul/Aug 42 has been very appealing since Obvert first raised it, and this way I won’t have to delay the armour that I want.
I can’t access the game for about 14 hours so will ponder this some more today.
My main strategic thinking is that Japan needs to try and win the war on points by 1 Jan 44 at the latest, so one aspect of this is that I probably need to force a carrier battle in 1942/43 to get more victory points. The allies may not comply, but I feel I will need to try and force the issue. This is also what the IJN were trying to do historically, and in this game the USN is still intact so they will be a massive threat if I can’t reduce them in 1942. The ABDA CA task force in the Coral Sea is big on that list with about 200 points in it.
Even if I just sink allied merchants, I am planning to conduct a deep raid in both the Pacific and Indian Oceans to hunt for points.
Not sure why you want so many factories on Rufe. I typically have only 1. Granted, it might 1x75 or larger, but still I only commit one. Remember, once in production a factory can be any sized and will produce multiple aircraft each day if large enough.
Rufe's have a lot of nice uses, I probably use them as much as anyone*. BUT they are all secondary to a main fighter. My main fighters MUST be priority at all times.
Hi Pax, I might have misread but I think he means that only one industry goes online. That's my understanding.
Anyway, I think the entire VPs thing has a major flaw. Or more than one. 200 points are nothing. And CVs are a nice prize, but not that much in the overall score. It's always quite cool to sink them for practical reasons, and because in the long-run Allies have to compensate a lot in order to meet the '45 autovictory requirements, but for a Japanese autovictory perspective, it's quite irrelevant in terms of VPs.
I am quite new to the forum and probably even quite dumb, therefore I am unable to post more than one image on a single reply.
Here are few links to better explain what I mean in terms of VPs (hope this dropbox sharing works...).
This PBEM's screens are quite out of date since we went few months further. I still have to get Karachi, but as you can see I am at 3,63:1 in the moment I took this screen. Not that much and quite short of 4:1. And I'm in '43. With quite a big territorial extension.
The whole Royal Navy sleeps under the Ocean. Many, points but not that much if you look at the points breakdown.
Now the other PBEM in which I am entangled. It's again quite later than the screen taking but just 10 days or so.
I am near the famous 4:1 but as you can see I got a lot of extremely important bases (Sydney hasn't fallen yet) rather than ships.
What I am trying to show is that, from my perspective, sinking enemy CVs has little meaning in the VP count. It has of course primary importance in basically every other aspect, but not VPs. At least, that's my own idea on the matter.
I prefer to harvest VPs through massive land fights and conquests rather than relying on CV clashes.
Moreover, I don't know whether 3:1 on 1-JAN-44 is a realistic expectation.
Again, it's just my 2 cents and the reasons I take the subject in this way.
Regarding the range topic. We shouldn't forget that CVs have a maximum strike distance and so we are somehow bound to that. Or it has been eliminated and it has always been dumb luck I haven't had long range clashes until now?
I am quite prone to say that, especially mid-game, you either adopt a line of thought of trying to strike at maximum distance, where US CVs cannot strike back, or you just go close and hope to bring down in the hell with you as many yanks as possible.
Only 1x Rufe factory will produce, the rest can skip ahead to A6M5c research once repaired to size 30.
I don’t have to research A6M5 before starting research on the 5c.
Every day delay starting 5c research is a delay to its potential production start date.
Researching A6M5 does not help bring the 5c production date forward.
I’ve come up with an option to get the 5c in Nov 42 with no engine bonus, so possibly earlier, by moving 4 x Grace research factories to it.
Now the Grace is a good plane, but if I left 4x30 researching it won’t arrive until Apr 44.
If the war is still going by then I don’t think Grace will help as much as getting the 5c in late 1942 would.
That would get me a lot more months of service out of the 5c.
I didn’t check the date, but it should also bring the A6M8 into play as a Fleet defender a good few months before the Sam arrives.
What say the IJGS / peanut gallery to this option of moving 4 x Grace research to give me 8x30 A6M5c research factories?
If I make the changes tonight those Rufe factories will be repaired in about 30 days and will skip straight to 5c research at that point
Maybe not the Grace... odds are I will still be fighting hard in 1944 so changing some very late war research factories might be a better option.
The Generals aren’t going to like this idea, but something like the 4x Ki-94 research factories might be better moved to the A6M5c...
If I promise the Generals some tbc excess research factories that I don’t need for production in return they should accept that trade off...
Probably it has some shortcomings somewhere. And probably others have different opinions.
Individually, I think that in R&D the rule is "go big or go home". Thinking in industrial and strategic terms, you don't achieve much anticipating a model of few months. Suppose you put 4 factories on KI-94-II. You get it few months before it's scheduled. Say 6 months (and it would be quite a miracle such an advance).
It's 1-SEPT-1945. Does it change something? At that point the war is either lost or won (with "won" I do mean a draw which is, accordingly to me, a Jap victory).
Now think you put a lot of factories on the KI-94-II from 7-DEC. I use the excel tool I link you in this discussion to make my calculations usually.
If you put enough factories, you have it in mid-44 if I remember correctly. It is a game-changer.
There are many tradeoffs, but it's my personal idea about R&D. Just an example with KI-94-II, a model I am researching in one of my PBEM. I think I have more than 30 factories on it. Way more, probably. I am far behind on the rest of the R&D, though.
Again, it's a matter of your grand strategy and your doctrine. For example, if you privilege a sort of kantai kessen to be done somewhere in late '43, you probably need an approach which is completely different from a doctrine based on elastic response.
I feel that the best way to organize R&D is figuring out your grand strategy and doctrine first of all. Then you define what you need and when to accomplish your strategy. Finally, you allocate resources to that.
So, if your idea is to have a quick 4:1 autovictory (or 3:1 at 1-JAN-1944), you require to implement your vision (a sort of blitzkrieg defeating the Allies and making them ask for peace) into operations. And these operations require assets. Assets you can either produce outright from 7-DEC or research and then put into production.
In this reasoning, it's contradictory to research KI-94-II, for example: why do you research half-heartedly (is it an actually existing word, btw?) if you do not plan to reach the date in which it will become operational?
I give you a brief example of what I do mean. I decided to go for India in one of the two PBEM I posted above. Leaving aside the whole strategic reasoning behind that, I started researching and producing what I needed to accomplish my operational objectives, based on the strategic ones. Therefore I invested relatively a lot in researching Helen-IIa to have it soon and mass-produce it (200/month) and I privileged long-legged IJAAF fighters (Oscars) instead of good sweepers such as Tojos, reasoning being that I the territory is huge, AFs are available in great numbers but long range offensive assets are to be preferred to short-legged tojos. Moreover, I figured out I couls sweep Karachi from a base WEST of Ahamadabad or how the hell is spelled without triggering emergency reinforcements. Mass production of an inferior plane, Oscar, has been therefore preferred to the better Tojo because of operational reasons, which find their grounds in my strategic goals.
Here the link to the research excel spreadsheet. Don't know whether it is 100% accurate, I found it on the forum and so far it has been correct for most of the models. Not for my current heavy investment in KI-94-II but it's because I got lucky. https://www.dropbox.com/s/44qps38pynyw8 ... h.xls?dl=0
My calcs suggest 4x Ki94 factories from day 1 would get it into production Mar 45, so 11 months early excluding engine bonus.
It’s a form of insurance policy in case the war isn’t won earlier.
The fundamental problem with Judy is range, until the D4Y4 and Grace. It gives the allies a real advantage in a CV fight, one that almost always turns out costly for the IJ.
For me, after Oct '42, I really don't want a CV duel as IJ. I want to fight allied CV's with LBA using KB as bait. The KB is very brittle, I've lost so many CV's to a single hit.
ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
SBD-5 is 9 hex with 1000lb, SBD-6 is 10 hex. AND their fighters have better range than the A7M … after 10/42 you are fighting with a range DISADVANTAGE, which mean they can hit you and you cannot retaliate. THat is the scenario you enjoy right now until 10/42.
Not sure what you mean here Pax. CV battles are limited regardless of airframe range, right? Allies to 7 hexes and IJ to 8 hexes. So range is not so important as long as planes can cary their biggest bomb to those ranges, and the Judy can with drop tanks.
I do want a CV duel because anytime the Allies have less is a good time to lengthen their schedule. If they have taken lopsided losses in 42-43 then their challenge is to move forward without a dominant CV advantage into 44, so they have to use different strategies. DEI or SW Pac rather than home runs like the Kuriles. If smart the IJN should have an advantage into 44 with the KB, especially if the Allies expose themselves early while at a severe disadvantage.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
Only 1x Rufe factory will produce, the rest can skip ahead to A6M5c research once repaired to size 30.
I don’t have to research A6M5 before starting research on the 5c.
Every day delay starting 5c research is a delay to its potential production start date.
Researching A6M5 does not help bring the 5c production date forward.
I’ve come up with an option to get the 5c in Nov 42 with no engine bonus, so possibly earlier, by moving 4 x Grace research factories to it.
Now the Grace is a good plane, but if I left 4x30 researching it won’t arrive until Apr 44.
If the war is still going by then I don’t think Grace will help as much as getting the 5c in late 1942 would.
That would get me a lot more months of service out of the 5c.
I didn’t check the date, but it should also bring the A6M8 into play as a Fleet defender a good few months before the Sam arrives.
Don't do it. Use the A6M5 instead. [;)]
As Pax mentioned, the extra speed and durability fo the A6M5 is going to give you a bigger advantage than the +1 armour (with lower speed and manoeuvre and reduced range). When you sail around waiting for a battle you have to keep your CAP/escorts set, and when you use drop tanks and have to set them to extended range they take more ops damage and are in worse shape for the upcoming battle (one of the big drawbacks of the early Wildcats too actually).
You're fixated on the 5c for some reason I can't understand in spite of the evidence that shows its a decent airframe but not better than the M5 or M5b. Of course, it's your game and customisation is the fun part of the IJ game, so do what you will. [:)]
What say the IJGS / peanut gallery to this option of moving 4 x Grace research to give me 8x30 A6M5c research factories?
If I make the changes tonight those Rufe factories will be repaired in about 30 days and will skip straight to 5c research at that point
Waste of supply and you'll lose out on having the best strike plane the IJN gets in the war, which late is also one of your best kamis.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
