AAR - PBEM Game 2 (The FIRST public AAR)

[Pkunzipper]

It is possible to mount a seaborne invasion from a Russian un-frozen region to a European German controlled one? If this is possible I think should be fixed not allowing SU attacking Germany.

[Becket]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Now whether Russia attacking Germans would or would not "unfreeze everything" I don't know since I didn't attack (and now is already too late since GE attacked in next turn).

I will reload last turn, unfreeze Central RU, and attack in Iran just to see what happens, I'll let you know.

Oleg

Indeed. I re-loaded last night's turn, attacked Manchuria, unfreezing Central Russia, and then attacked Iran with 1 unit from Turkmenistan. I lost that battle of course, but then all regions of SU unlocked, including those in Europe.

Now what do you all think about this? Should the rules be changed somehow? Personally I can't form any opinion about this so this is one of those rare moments that leave me "opinion-less" [:D]

Oleg

IMO, it comes down to how it affects gameplay. There's no precedent in history to guide us because of two competing factors: (1) Stalin's refusal to believe that Germany was going to attack, even when "Lucy" sent over the plan for Barbarrossa (blame Beria for this view...), and (2) Hitler's declaration of war against the US when the US declared war on Japan but not Germany (though it served him no purpose and he was not strictly required to do so). These factors leave me unable to say whether anything but an attack would jar Stalin from his delusions, or whether Hitler would declare war on any nation attacking Japan.

Therefore, the affects on gameplay should drive this one, and we probably need more games to decide. After all, in this game, 5 turns ago, everyone had written the allies off for dead, so things change rapidly and one game doesn't give nearly enough evidence to decide.

[SeaMonkey]

I have to go along with Becket. Stalin was a paranoid schizophrenic that would never have perpetrated an attack against Germany. He was worried enough about his armed forces after the Finnish debacle and invisioned his comrades were determined to overthrow his authority. Look how long it took him to DoW Japan. IMO USSR should only activate upon being attacked. "What ifs" are totally another consideration.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Pkunzipper

It is possible to mount a seaborne invasion from a Russian un-frozen region to a European German controlled one? If this is possible I think should be fixed not allowing SU attacking Germany.

Practically impossible. Russians have (IIRC) 1 or 2 Transport fleets by default, which may be used in Baltic perhaps. Building Transports instead of tanks and infantry would be among the most stupid decisions any RU player may make [:D]

O.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: SeaMonkey

I have to go along with Becket. Stalin was a paranoid schizophrenic that would never

But I am not paranoid schizophrenic, and most players of this game won't be either [:D]. You think I should make an effort to emulate komrade Stalin better? [:D]



Having USSR frozen until <turn X> is excellent idea IMO, but the question is how and when RU should be activated.

O.

[Joel Billings]

The game worked as intended. The only issue I see is that the Caucusus were frozen when Germany came next to it in Iraq. I will have to rethink whether we need allow some strategic movement of units if the Germans get to the border area so the Russians can reposition to defend against attack. We have a rule that if the Eastern area is frozen but the rest are active against Germany, strategic movement is allowed in the East. This allows movement of troops, but does not allow Russia to attack Japan. Maybe something similar if Germany takes Turkey, Iraq, or Afghanistan.

I was wondering if Germany was going to figure out it is well worth it to knock out the Caucusus resource centers even if they can't hold it. Good move. Russia now will have huge factory totals but will be very short of resources within a few turns. If Japan had held out, the loss of the Middle East would have made the Western Allies short of resources as well, but now they can take back Southeast Asia/Indonesia so that shouldn't be a problem (once all repaired). What a wild game. Guess I should expect it since everyone is just learning the system and strategies. All I can say is that the partisans in Europe should start knocking off infrastructure pretty soon as the German garrisons in the west look very low.

This game has been a good read. Thanks guys.

Joel

[MButtazoni]

even the spectators in the cheap seats are getting their money's worth...

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: MButtazoni

even the spectators in the cheap seats are getting their money's worth...

Message for you, when the turn gets to you, use the "L" key, Luke.

I will need all the supplies I could use.

[:D]

Also I certainly do hope you are planning Torch v2.0, codename Blowtorch [:D], since Overlord seems out of the question for now... [:(]

O.

[neuromancer]

The Grey Plague expands accross the world!

And Operation Olympus is performed with particular success, 3 years early!

My, my, my!


BTW: Regarding the 'relative ease' with which England and Japan were invaded, might I suggest something?

One any of certain particular territories are invaded (England and Scotland, the Japanese core island, Moscow, and probably a couple others, Berlin, and maybe one or two others, etc. - basically the core territories of the four main players) I would think it appropriate for a 'scratch militia' to immediately be formed in the capitol at the initiation of the assault (thus they could appear on the same turn as such an attack is launched and could defend the capitol). This should be a one time event only for each major player (US and UK could be tracked seperately). A few militia units suddenly appear, how many could be variable and probably depend upon the country.

This would A. make taking the core territories out more difficult, B. make taking out any of the major players <cough>Japan<cough> more difficult, and C. be fairly realistic.

When the Soviet Union was invaded, a large number of troops were mobilized in fairly short order. These were poorly equipped, poorly trained, and of questionable morale (thus the NKVD commissars who would make sure they kept going in the right direction), but there was a lot of them.
There was of course the Volkstrum in Germany (although, they were kinda raised in advance, but same principle).
Many beleive that anyone that could pick up a gun (pointy stick, rock, etc.) would have fought if Japan had been invaded, and I believe the same would have been true if England or mainland US was invaded.

Again, I don't know how feasable this would be - kinda late in the development process to be asking for significant code changes - but its a thought. maybe Joel can speak to this.

[MButtazoni]

funny thing about that "" key. it's broke on my keyboard. maybe i can get it fixed by next turn. we' see [:D]

[paullus99]

[font="Tahoma"]NO!!!!! No supplies for you!!!!! so says the Supply Nazi![/font]


Sorry, couldn't resist.....

[MButtazoni]

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

The Grey Plague expands accross the world!

And Operation Olympus is performed with particular success, 3 years early!

My, my, my!


BTW: Regarding the 'relative ease' with which England and Japan were invaded, might I suggest something?

One any of certain particular territories are invaded (England and Scotland, the Japanese core island, Moscow, and probably a couple others, Berlin, and maybe one or two others, etc. - basically the core territories of the four main players) I would think it appropriate for a 'scratch militia' to immediately be formed in the capitol at the initiation of the assault (thus they could appear on the same turn as such an attack is launched and could defend the capitol). This should be a one time event only for each major player (US and UK could be tracked seperately). A few militia units suddenly appear, how many could be variable and probably depend upon the country.

This would A. make taking the core territories out more difficult, B. make taking out any of the major players <cough>Japan<cough> more difficult, and C. be fairly realistic.

When the Soviet Union was invaded, a large number of troops were mobilized in fairly short order. These were poorly equipped, poorly trained, and of questionable morale (thus the NKVD commissars who would make sure they kept going in the right direction), but there was a lot of them.
There was of course the Volkstrum in Germany (although, they were kinda raised in advance, but same principle).
Many beleive that anyone that could pick up a gun (pointy stick, rock, etc.) would have fought if Japan had been invaded, and I believe the same would have been true if England or mainland US was invaded.

Again, I don't know how feasable this would be - kinda late in the development process to be asking for significant code changes - but its a thought. maybe Joel can speak to this.

the code is actually in the game in two places for this "type" of thing. an excerpt from the Docs:

Special Infantry Mobilization (Russia and China)
1) On the first turn that an area with Russian nationality is attacked by Germany or Japan, the Soviets receive, at the end of their next production phase, 1 infantry unit per population point in each Soviet nationality area they control.
2) Whenever a Chinese controlled area is attacked by a declared attack that includes enemy ground units, Chinese infantry units are added to the defending forces immediately before the combat resolution. These forces added are equal to twice the population level of the area.

as far as key country loactions, i think this kind of thing is not needed. BUT we do have a discussion going in the Dev Forum about Transports and Amphib Capacities.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

One any of certain particular territories are invaded (England and Scotland, the Japanese core island, Moscow, and probably a couple others, Berlin, and maybe one or two others, etc. - basically the core territories of the four main players) I would think it appropriate for a 'scratch militia' to immediately be formed in the capitol at the initiation of the assault (thus they could appear on the same turn as such an attack is launched and could defend the capitol). This should be a one time event only for each major player (US and UK could be tracked seperately). A few militia units suddenly appear, how many could be variable and probably depend upon the country.

This would A. make taking the core territories out more difficult, B. make taking out any of the major players <cough>Japan<cough> more difficult, and C. be fairly realistic.

When the Soviet Union was invaded, a large number of troops were mobilized in fairly short order. These were poorly equipped, poorly trained, and of questionable morale (thus the NKVD commissars who would make sure they kept going in the right direction), but there was a lot of them.
There was of course the Volkstrum in Germany (although, they were kinda raised in advance, but same principle).
Many beleive that anyone that could pick up a gun (pointy stick, rock, etc.) would have fought if Japan had been invaded, and I believe the same would have been true if England or mainland US was invaded.

Again, I don't know how feasable this would be - kinda late in the development process to be asking for significant code changes - but its a thought. maybe Joel can speak to this.

Excellent remarks IMO, but some special mobilization rules to the tune of your suggestions are already built in the game:

"On the first turn that an area with Russian nationality is attacked by Germany or Japan, the Soviets receive, at the end of their next production phase, 1 infantry unit per population point in each Soviet nationality area they control.

Whenever a Chinese controlled area is attacked by a declared attack that includes enemy ground units, Chinese infantry units are added to the defending forces immediately before the combat resolution. These forces added are equal to twice the population level of the area."

I cannot verify that RU really did receive additional units until I get my turn [:D]

As for the second (Chinese) rule I can attest it's a pain in the as* for JA player (judging from my other PBEM game where I am Axis).

Oleg

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: MButtazoni

the code is actually in the game in two places for this "type" of thing. an excerpt from the Docs:

Special Infantry Mobilization (Russia and China)
1) On the first turn that an area with Russian nationality is attacked by Germany or Japan, the Soviets receive, at the end of their next production phase, 1 infantry unit per population point in each Soviet nationality area they control.
2) Whenever a Chinese controlled area is attacked by a declared attack that includes enemy ground units, Chinese infantry units are added to the defending forces immediately before the combat resolution. These forces added are equal to twice the population level of the area.

as far as key country loactions, i think this kind of thing is not needed. BUT we do have a discussion going in the Dev Forum about Transports and Amphib Capacities.

We posted the same thing at nearly the same moment.

Next, in an AAR near you - Allies and Soviets cooperate using ESP and special KGB/CIA thought reading techniques [:D]

O.

[Becket]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: MButtazoni

the code is actually in the game in two places for this "type" of thing. an excerpt from the Docs:

Special Infantry Mobilization (Russia and China)
1) On the first turn that an area with Russian nationality is attacked by Germany or Japan, the Soviets receive, at the end of their next production phase, 1 infantry unit per population point in each Soviet nationality area they control.
2) Whenever a Chinese controlled area is attacked by a declared attack that includes enemy ground units, Chinese infantry units are added to the defending forces immediately before the combat resolution. These forces added are equal to twice the population level of the area.

as far as key country loactions, i think this kind of thing is not needed. BUT we do have a discussion going in the Dev Forum about Transports and Amphib Capacities.

We posted the same thing at nearly the same moment.

Next, in an AAR near you - Allies and Soviets cooperate using ESP and special KGB/CIA thought reading techniques [:D]

O.

The result: London still falls to the Axis.

[:D]

[Joel Billings]

Actually you will find that the rules changed and Soviets get 2 miltia per manpower point (I think). Didn't I tell you about that rule?

As for militia in capitals or other key areas, I like the idea. I think it could be added easily as I think the miltia code is not code at all but actually in a dat file that I can manipulate. Keith has done a great job putting things in dat files so they can be modified by non-programmers. This would help out some in preventing too easy an invasion and minimize the garrisons required in a few areas. However, my comment is that the player's have been way to aggressive and have not maintained the appropriate forces to safeguard against invasions. I'm still waiting for the partisans to rise up and destroy half of Germany's captured resources and facories as they aren't being garrisoned sufficiently. I can't say if we will add more militia, but it is a possibility.

[neuromancer]

ORIGINAL: MButtazoni
the code is actually in the game in two places for this "type" of thing. an excerpt from the Docs:

Special Infantry Mobilization (Russia and China)
<snip>

Okay, so that takes care of China and Russia, I'm just thinking something might be useful for the US, UK, German, and Japan.

as far as key country loactions, i think this kind of thing is not needed.

For Russia and China, no, as the rule stands it would not be necessary. But for the rest it would probably be necessary to represent arming almost everyone, which historically didn't happen, except with the German Volkstrum. Japan surrendered before that would have been necessary, and the US and UK were never in a position to need to do it. So they would need a more selective trigger than just any German/ Japanese/ Western Allied controlled area being attacked.

China and Russia did it, but as stated, that has already been handled in the game.

BUT we do have a discussion going in the Dev Forum about Transports and Amphib Capacities.

That would probably be for the best. Overlord required a year to get all the equipment necessary for an invasion, part of that was getting all the transports, plus making the pieces of the temporary ports, gathering the hiuge amount of supplies needed for the campaign, and so on.

You should (edit:) not be able to just plop down a transport in a sea zone and be able to move a huge number of troops around.

[neuromancer]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
As for militia in capitals or other key areas, I like the idea. I think it could be added easily as I think the miltia code is not code at all but actually in a dat file that I can manipulate.

<snip>

I can't say if we will add more militia, but it is a possibility.

Cool. [8D]

Fair enough. I can understand not wanting to potentially upset the game balance until a few more AARs are under the belt.

Keeping it in mind for future reference and potential future use is good enough for me.

Just as long as I get credit if its used!
[:D]

I kid, I don't really care about that. Being part of the community working to make a better game is good enough for me.

[bigbabyhead]

Japan is gone.

I'll have some comments in the dev forum about how it worked out.

[MButtazoni]

while we are waiting for Oleg's turn...

for anyone that cares, the pbem save files we are sending around have all been around 60 to 64 kbytes. very small and quick to email.