Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Lowpe (J)

[Lokasenna]

The RF Gun units will not participate in bombardments - they're AT weapons only.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The RF Gun units will not participate in bombardments - they're AT weapons only.

Still a lot of arty there. [:)]

[JocMeister]

Still havn´t gotten the turn or replay. Starting to pace here....

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]Cox Bazaar[/font]
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Dang, as usual the engine fudges things up for unknown reasons. Despite being within range to start unloading during the night only 1 TF does so. One TF doesn´t start unloading until last in the PM phase and the two others go to Chittagong. [&:]

Bombardment wise only 1 TF actually bombards. The fast BB TF stops 3 hexes from Cox and stay there while the CA TF moves to Chittagong. Love the AE engine at times...

Anyway the disablements among those that landed arn´t too bad actually. About 20-30% disabled which isn´t bad at all considering their low prepp. Quite pleased with that if it holds when the rest of the troops are landed.

Allied SIGINT had missed a regiment of the 18th division at Cox. It shouldn´t change anything though considering with can bombard at will. the "Rs" have already reloaded at Chittagong and will go in again tonight together with the fast BBs and the CA TF.

The one bombardment that went in was quite potent.

Night Naval bombardment of Cox's Bazar at 54,43

Allied Ships
BB Resolution
BB Ramillies
BB Royal Sovereign
BB Revenge
DD Isis
DD Express
DD Nizam
DD Napier
DD Nestor
DD Nepal

Japanese ground losses:
544 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 23 disabled
Engineers: 6 destroyed, 2 disabled

Allied bombers caused another 700 casualties or so.

By the looks of it Jeff is trying to reinforce from his roadblock due East of Cox. I think this is futile unless he can take control of the seas and stopp naval bombardments though.

There were no counter bombardment after the landing which either means he is completely out of ammo or too disrupted to bombard.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

It is quite possible to build up all the border dot bases to max and then stock pile supplies that will propagate toward the Irrawaddy Valley. I have done this twice with 2 AARs. The base build up simply increases the supplies that can be moved. Ramree Island although is really key to getting supplies to propogate with the minimal loss to the attrition algorithms..

I really like this line of attack in that once Rangoon falls.. it's Katy bar the door .. the plains of Thailand offer great ground for armor to thrust into Southeast Asia ..A combined DEI Burma offense is particularly stressful in DBB because of the supply situation ..

Late 1943 Early 1944 this could be over ..

And, if they can be spared from supply trips to China, the massive Allied air transport fleet can support a large amount of units in Burma as soon as you take an air base.

Many Allied players choose to upgrade the 17th Indian division in late 42 to a full TO&E Indian division. I think it is a mistake to do so and just leave it as it is. If not upgraded it is a fully air transportable division and though not as powerful, is quite useful. Likewise the 81st African division that comes in around 8/43 is fully air transportable. Both divisions have no motorized support and only have 81mm mortars rather than the 25 pounders.

[Crackaces]

I also don't understand why you would need Ramree in order to get good supply flow. I've done it easily enough without, or rather - taking it didn't ease my supply crunch in the slightest. The size of bases makes a great deal of difference.

One thing you pointed out size and position of the bases ..

First time I built up every dot base along the border and supply propagated into the Irrawaddy Valley enough to maintain my offense ..
Second time Burma .. I build up bases + took Ramree Island .. I noted my units getting the same amount of supply but less attrition from propagation and Rangoon had more supplies ..

So each situation might have to be taken in context with lots of minute details taken into consideration besides unit supply ..

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

I also don't understand why you would need Ramree in order to get good supply flow. I've done it easily enough without, or rather - taking it didn't ease my supply crunch in the slightest. The size of bases makes a great deal of difference.

One thing you pointed out size and position of the bases ..

First time I built up every dot base along the border and supply propagated into the Irrawaddy Valley enough to maintain my offense ..
Second time Burma .. I build up bases + took Ramree Island .. I noted my units getting the same amount of supply but less attrition from propagation and Rangoon had more supplies ..

So each situation might have to be taken in context with lots of minute details taken into consideration besides unit supply ..

My unsupported opinion is that the draw capability of the destination hex matters more than anything else. Once I took Rangoon in each of my Allied games, hundreds of thousands of supply flowed there from India in extremely short order. We're talking within a week or two. It came from India - namely Chittagong, Calcutta, and Madras (it's impossible to tell exactly where it came from, but it did come from overland as I shipped nothing in - most likely it came from a multitude of bases and the supply also spread out from Chittagong, etc.).

For units in the bushes, supply paths and proximity seem more important but it could also be an observation phenomenon: basically, if you're looking at your unit supply in the bushes you're more likely to be in combat situations (at least I am) whereas you may not be checking the supplies at bases after you've moved beyond them. But the supply movement algos don't change...

Mostly I'm trying to fight back against Forum Gospel that Ramree is the key to getting supply into Burma, because it's not.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

I also don't understand why you would need Ramree in order to get good supply flow. I've done it easily enough without, or rather - taking it didn't ease my supply crunch in the slightest. The size of bases makes a great deal of difference.

One thing you pointed out size and position of the bases ..

First time I built up every dot base along the border and supply propagated into the Irrawaddy Valley enough to maintain my offense ..
Second time Burma .. I build up bases + took Ramree Island .. I noted my units getting the same amount of supply but less attrition from propagation and Rangoon had more supplies ..

So each situation might have to be taken in context with lots of minute details taken into consideration besides unit supply ..

My unsupported opinion is that the draw capability of the destination hex matters more than anything else. Once I took Rangoon in each of my Allied games, hundreds of thousands of supply flowed there from India in extremely short order. We're talking within a week or two. It came from India - namely Chittagong, Calcutta, and Madras (it's impossible to tell exactly where it came from, but it did come from overland as I shipped nothing in - most likely it came from a multitude of bases and the supply also spread out from Chittagong, etc.).

For units in the bushes, supply paths and proximity seem more important but it could also be an observation phenomenon: basically, if you're looking at your unit supply in the bushes you're more likely to be in combat situations (at least I am) whereas you may not be checking the supplies at bases after you've moved beyond them. But the supply movement algos don't change...

Mostly I'm trying to fight back against Forum Gospel that Ramree is the key to getting supply into Burma, because it's not.

Yes, but the point is if you don't have Rangoon and are trying to support an overland offensive to take it. Rangoon is a major port. If you own Rangoon any Japanese unit in central Burma is either dead or walking home through China. If I take Rangoon by amphibious attack, I won't waste time with Ramree that is for sure.

[Crackaces]

My unsupported opinion is that the draw capability of the destination hex matters more than anything else.

I would agree that is key .. and how much starts propagating and how much is lost to the "Angels share" depends on how close the sources are and the ground covered to get there jungle vs road vs railroad.

I guess if you start with abundance and enough gets to the targets it really does not matter the efficiency of different methods to make that happen . [8D]

All I can say is when I first played this game the mantra was you can't support an invasion of Burma .. the AAR records how that happened ... plus attack Darwin overland .. [;)]

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

My unsupported opinion is that the draw capability of the destination hex matters more than anything else.

I would agree that is key .. and how much starts propagating and how much is lost to the "Angels share" depends on how close the sources are and the ground covered to get there jungle vs road vs railroad.

I guess if you start with abundance and enough gets to the targets it really does not matter the efficiency of different methods to make that happen . [8D]

All I can say is when I first played this game the mantra was you can't support an invasion of Burma .. the AAR records how that happened ... plus attack Darwin overland .. [;)]

Right - the initial complaints about lack of supply flow came when info about how it works was sketchy and players were already well into their games. Once Alfred set us straight and some players reported their successes at individual bases, it was clear that you have to start building the supply path from day 1 of the game to get decent flow 12-16 months later. Patience and early effort ...[:)]

[JocMeister]

No turn guys.

Maybe tomorrow.

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]28th February -43[/font]
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We continue to land at Cox for a 3rd day. Still not fully unloaded but its time to pull out now. My LRCAP is absolutely exhausted with FAT in the 40+. Our bombardments continue to take a toll on the defenders.

---------------------------------
Burma
---------------------------------

Night Naval bombardment of Cox's Bazar at 54,43

Allied Ships
BB Resolution
BB Ramillies
BB Royal Sovereign
BB Revenge
DD Isis
DD Express
DD Nizam
DD Napier
DD Nestor
DD Nepal

Japanese ground losses:
440 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 10 disabled
Non Combat: 6 destroyed, 30 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 0 disabled

From now on we will start on a rolling schedule of bombardments. 7 BBs in 2 TFs will take turns with the odd bombardment thrown in by a CA TF. The bottleneck is rearming at Chittagong. Despite AE/AKEs and 80 NavS we can´t reload fast enough. Another 200 NavS is arriving shortly.

About 800 AV is now unloaded. DIS/FAT is zero so I will do a probing bombardment tomorrow to see what he has in place. I suspect supply will be very difficult for him as Cox is not built up the slightest.

This turn a very well escorted raid took off towards the landing. Despite the worn out LRCAP we did well.

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Cox's Bazar at 54,43

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 29,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 31 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 37
A6M5 Zero x 30
G3M2 Nell x 13
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 33

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 20
Hurricane IIc Trop x 32
P-40K Warhawk x 43

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
A6M5 Zero: 11 destroyed
G3M2 Nell: 1 damaged
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 8 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb Trop: 2 destroyed
Hurricane IIc Trop: 3 destroyed
P-40K Warhawk: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
CL Capetown
DD Arunta

On the day 46 Japanese planes are shot down for only 14 allied. No TTs hit the nimble warships! [:)]

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]Chunking[/font]
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The inevitable end is here.

Ground combat at Chungking (76,45)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 149942 troops, 1636 guns, 532 vehicles, Assault Value = 3693

Defending force 162867 troops, 479 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 2050

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 3

Japanese adjusted assault: 3301

Allied adjusted defense: 581

Japanese assault odds: 5 to 1 (fort level 3)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Chungking !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), leaders(+), preparation(-)
experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
3491 casualties reported
Squads: 20 destroyed, 670 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 58 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 52 disabled
Guns lost 41 (1 destroyed, 40 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
34857 casualties reported
Squads: 1961 destroyed, 41 disabled
Non Combat: 3730 destroyed, 102 disabled
Engineers: 145 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 189 (179 destroyed, 10 disabled)
Units retreated 58
Units destroyed 13

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

VP wise Japan gets a small boost. He will get a few more once he manages to hunt down the stack evicted from Chungking. But as can see in the screen VP wise it havn´t changed much.

Sadly though most of the industry is left intact which is a huge disappointment. Per HR I´m not allowed to strat bomb in China. The whole reason for staying in Chungking was to wreck the industry. Had I known this I wouldn´t even have bothered trying to defend it.

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]Cox[/font]
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First bombardment shows I should be able to capture Cox shortly.

Ground combat at Cox's Bazar (54,43)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 5529 troops, 55 guns, 94 vehicles, Assault Value = 775

Defending force 15233 troops, 119 guns, 173 vehicles, Assault Value = 542

Japanese ground losses:
15 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
1st Marine Division
18th British Division
9th Indian Division

Defending units:
18th/C Division
1st RTA/B Division
1st RTA/A Division
14th Tank Regiment
1st RTA/C Division
18th/B Division
2nd Tank Regiment
3rd RTA/C Division
25th Air Defense AA Regiment
91st JAAF AF Bn
302nd Ship Eng Coy
20th Ind Engineer Regiment
14th Ind.Art.Mortar Bn /5

The RTA troops are rubbish and I don´t think the Japanese troops will put up much of a fight. They are being visited during the nights...this is from last night.

Night Naval bombardment of Cox's Bazar at 54,43

Allied Ships
BB Prince of Wales
BB Washington
BC Repulse
DD Porter
DD Flusser
DD Lamson
DD Drayton
DD Mahan
DD Fanning
DD Dunlap
DD Gwin
DD Meredith

Japanese ground losses:
320 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 10 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 20 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Night Naval bombardment of Cox's Bazar at 54,43

Allied Ships
CA Frobisher
CA Cornwall
CA Dorsetshire
CA Vincennes
CA Houston
CA Northampton
DD Dale
DD Ellet
DD Benham
DD Meade
DD Barton

Japanese ground losses:
512 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 11 disabled
Non Combat: 11 destroyed, 21 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 7 (1 destroyed, 6 disabled)

Night Naval bombardment of Cox's Bazar at 54,43

Allied Ships
BB Resolution
BB Ramillies
BB Royal Sovereign
BB Revenge
DD Isis
DD Express
DD Nizam
DD Napier
DD Nestor
DD Nepal

Japanese ground losses:
395 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled
Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 27 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 0 disabled

My landing troops are in decent shape. Most of the heavy equipment didn´t finish unloading though. But the naval bombardments should make up for that...

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]Solomons[/font]
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The difference unloading from assault ships and civilian ships are striking. 2nd Marines unload everything over night as we land at Lunga unopposed.

Rossel Island is secured removing the Japanese long range search that has been flying from there. I should now be able to move shipping along the Australian coast unspotted.

[Lokasenna]

Once supplies flow to Chungking for him, and assuming he builds it out, the VP screen will change a lot more than just 1200.

[BBfanboy]

I agree the RTA divisions have poor firepower, but after a year of game time they will have filled out TOE and likely have gained experience and morale, so they should fight like a good experienced Chinese Corps. The big problem will bet the two tank regiments defending Cox's Bazar. Do your units have their 1943 squads yet?

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Once supplies flow to Chungking for him, and assuming he builds it out, the VP screen will change a lot more than just 1200.

When he gets it into supply he will get another 800 VP. I doubt he will expand it though. He knows he won´t keep it for too long. Its already March 43.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I agree the RTA divisions have poor firepower, but after a year of game time they will have filled out TOE and likely have gained experience and morale, so they should fight like a good experienced Chinese Corps. The big problem will bet the two tank regiments defending Cox's Bazar. Do your units have their 1943 squads yet?

And a good experienced Chinese Corp won´t hold up against USMC, UK and Indian troops. [:)]

Indians are 43. Rest are 42.

[crsutton]

It has been a while, would you list out the Japanese and Allied capital ship losses to date? Thanks,

Having experience it a few times now, I no longer fret the loss of Chungking. In fact I pretty much lost all of China in both my campaigns. Losing China really does not have much of an affect on the war in general. That is, the Allies can easily win even if China remains in Japanese hands.