Hairy Asian Experiences - GreyJoy (J) vs. Q-Ball (A)

[ny59giants]

As an Allied player two months behind you, it is nice to be able to place over 400 B-24s (Army and Naval versions) over a base. I do like the fact that I can do this for a few turns, but once I order rest, they take about a week to recover.

Brad just had his big American BFs and another BF expand their Aviation Support by 1/3. Going from 72 to 96 will help Brad base more aircraft at some of his bases. In just over 1/2 month this will happen for me also and we end the altitude restrictions. I hope my P-47s and my P-38s can take advantage of this. In you game, does the P-38L do well??

Slightly OT, but any plans to add Symon/JWEs modification to aircraft data to your game??

Your steady losses in DDs seemed to hurt you in the latest round of combat.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

... but the supply problem is what is and will really hurt me. I produce too few supplies. ... 25,000 supplies per turn is really too few...without the refineries it's really tough to get enough of it.

GJ, You do realize that refineries would only give you another ~4K/day max supplies? Yes, 15% is a lot, but at the same time it is manageable. It means don't build/change 4 factories per day. And that means you have to fly older planes longer than you would in stock or have LCU's fighting without supply.

I'm not suggesting I agree with the design (I don't), but the devs of this mod decreased the supply for IJ for just this very reason: trim the IJ ability to build/change ac factories. You have to adjust your economic plan to the mods design.

[koniu]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

... but the supply problem is what is and will really hurt me. I produce too few supplies. ... 25,000 supplies per turn is really too few...without the refineries it's really tough to get enough of it.

GJ, You do realize that refineries would only give you another ~4K/day max supplies? Yes, 15% is a lot, but at the same time it is manageable. It means don't build/change 4 factories per day. And that means you have to fly older planes longer than you would in stock or have LCU's fighting without supply.

I'm not suggesting I agree with the design (I don't), but the devs of this mod decreased the supply for IJ for just this very reason: trim the IJ ability to build/change ac factories. You have to adjust your economic plan to the mods design.

Pax is right. Scenario was designed to force Japanese player to make small and smart moves with economy. And stop Japan from overexpand.
But i will not say that it is only 4k/daily. Only in first two years of war that is almost ~3000000 extra supplies.
For me that mean much more flexibility and bigger error margin during game.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: koniu

But i will not say that it is only 4k/daily. Only in first two years of war that is almost ~3000000 extra supplies.
For me that mean much more flexibility and bigger error margin during game.

It does. And 3M supply is a LOT. I couched it in terms of daily 4K/day to demonstrate that within the game you can manage it, but it means BIG sacrifices in terms of factory builds. The same reasons the devs of this mod chose to remove the supply are the same reasons I choose to not play the mod; the lack of supply makes playing IJ no fun for me. Instead, my personal mod uses all of their other changes. And then of course I meld this to Andy's double secret super meltdown allied IronMan with those frickin' Dorniers! [:D] (sorry to vent. [;)])

[JocMeister]

Pax, you can have some of my supply if you want to? I have 103 million sitting around not doing much of anything. [:D]

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

... but the supply problem is what is and will really hurt me. I produce too few supplies. ... 25,000 supplies per turn is really too few...without the refineries it's really tough to get enough of it.

GJ, You do realize that refineries would only give you another ~4K/day max supplies? Yes, 15% is a lot, but at the same time it is manageable. It means don't build/change 4 factories per day. And that means you have to fly older planes longer than you would in stock or have LCU's fighting without supply.

I'm not suggesting I agree with the design (I don't), but the devs of this mod decreased the supply for IJ for just this very reason: trim the IJ ability to build/change ac factories. You have to adjust your economic plan to the mods design.

Thanks Pax!
However I think I've not explained well what I meant.
To be honest I haven't touched my factories since the beginning of the war. The only factories I changed are the A6M2 ones in 1942 (cause their upgrade path was pretty weird). All the rest remained the very same since the beginning. I chose not to change R&D factories (we're also playing with realistic R&D) right because of the supply issue. So, once an R&D factory reaches the end of the upgrade path of the a/c it's researching, it simply becomes a production factory.
This was done to minimize the supply expenditure.

Don't know why i'm consuming so many supplies. Probably it's because of my Air Army (constantly kept at max alert) or because of the heavy replacements sent to my units...don't know. The fact is that i'm running very low on supplies...and not because of me tweaking with the factories...
anyway, i'm not complaining, mind you, just stating the status of my situation. Still having great fun playing Japan in 1944

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

As an Allied player two months behind you, it is nice to be able to place over 400 B-24s (Army and Naval versions) over a base. I do like the fact that I can do this for a few turns, but once I order rest, they take about a week to recover.

Brad just had his big American BFs and another BF expand their Aviation Support by 1/3. Going from 72 to 96 will help Brad base more aircraft at some of his bases. In just over 1/2 month this will happen for me also and we end the altitude restrictions. I hope my P-47s and my P-38s can take advantage of this. In you game, does the P-38L do well??

Slightly OT, but any plans to add Symon/JWEs modification to aircraft data to your game??

Your steady losses in DDs seemed to hurt you in the latest round of combat.

Can the Symon mods be added now?

Yes, DDs losses are really hurting me. My surface fleet is the shadow of what it used to be.

P-38Ls seem to be just as good as the P-38Hs...not that impressive if you ask me. The KI-84r can dive on them from 34-38k feet and, on the defensive side, even the J2M5 seems to do well against P-38s...even late ones.
The real killer is, as always, the P-47s...but just because of the 42K feet altitude. I wouldn't fear it too much if I could engage it at the same altitude.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

The real killer is, as always, the P-47s...but just because of the 42K feet altitude. I wouldn't fear it too much if I could engage it at the same altitude.

I'm running into this problem in my Allied PBEM. We have a height restriction set to 30k to try and stop the tendency simply to fly at maximum altitude all the time in order for one side or the other to get the dive. The problem with this is the P-47's rate of climb sucks. I'm constantly getting dived on because the CAP can climb faster and get the bounce on occasion. The P-47 isn't the beast I've been led to believe it is when it's not flying at 42k and getting the dive bonus against lower altitude Japanese fighters.

I really hope Symon's air tweaks reduce the effect of the dive. I'm not bashing the air model, but I've played long enough to know the dive/bounce is often decisive in an air action and players do whatever is necessary to get it whenever possible. The sheer number of house rules and threads relating to this topic clearly show how the effects of the dive/bounce completely dominate an air action with one side often getting slaughtered as a result and it's an issue. I'd like to see it's effect reduced and pilot skill, maneuver and aircraft specifications count for more.

I'm not trying to rekindle the debate about the dive. This is my own personal opinion and I think the air war would benefit if the effect of the dive was reduced. If pilot skill and plane specs determined who got the dive more so than simply flying higher than the other force to achieve it, I think the game would benefit immensely.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: koniu

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

... but the supply problem is what is and will really hurt me. I produce too few supplies. ... 25,000 supplies per turn is really too few...without the refineries it's really tough to get enough of it.

GJ, You do realize that refineries would only give you another ~4K/day max supplies? Yes, 15% is a lot, but at the same time it is manageable. It means don't build/change 4 factories per day. And that means you have to fly older planes longer than you would in stock or have LCU's fighting without supply.

I'm not suggesting I agree with the design (I don't), but the devs of this mod decreased the supply for IJ for just this very reason: trim the IJ ability to build/change ac factories. You have to adjust your economic plan to the mods design.

Pax is right. Scenario was designed to force Japanese player to make small and smart moves with economy. And stop Japan from overexpand.
But i will not say that it is only 4k/daily. Only in first two years of war that is almost ~3000000 extra supplies.
For me that mean much more flexibility and bigger error margin during game.

I still don't understand this change. Supply approximates aviation fuel as well as other things like SPAM. The entire reason the Japanese wanted some of the advanced Borneo refineries was to get good quality av gas, so how can it be taken out? Doesn't make sense.

Not many players will be keen to simply see the turns back with no ability to fly anything by early 45, and it certainly can't be too fun on the other side either.

[Cribtop]

Couldn't agree more. The dive is just too powerful, and is decisive in air engagements, leading to wildly ahistorical altitudes. I'd rather nerf or even toss it entirely rather than continue as is. It wouldn't be so bad if only a few planes got it, but when a massive air group all get a bounce attack, air combat becomes a mono-variable affair.

[MrKane]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Couldn't agree more. The dive is just too powerful, and is decisive in air engagements, leading to wildly ahistorical altitudes. I'd rather nerf or even toss it entirely rather than continue as is. It wouldn't be so bad if only a few planes got it, but when a massive air group all get a bounce attack, air combat becomes a mono-variable affair.

100% correct.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Couldn't agree more. The dive is just too powerful, and is decisive in air engagements, leading to wildly ahistorical altitudes. I'd rather nerf or even toss it entirely rather than continue as is. It wouldn't be so bad if only a few planes got it, but when a massive air group all get a bounce attack, air combat becomes a mono-variable affair.

Yep.

Jocke and I moved to 32k max lately, in 45, and it seems more balanced and less extreme. This was after a short period showed that even a Japanese plane with a dive advantage, (as the Ki-84r had for a short while due to our previous HR), was tough to handle.

[witpqs]

A layered CAP does well enough against higher level sweepers. Been proven enough times.

[Cribtop]

I've had some success but not as much as I hoped. How many layers are optimal? I may not be using enough.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

A layered CAP does well enough against higher level sweepers. Been proven enough times.

Why is it that the lowest altitude fighter always gets creamed on layered CAP? Why is it the higher CAP never dives on the sweep prior to the lowest altitude CAP getting slaughtered? To me, using layered CAP has turned the air model into a rock/paper/scissor format and easily exploitable. Ok, I'll use 40 exp pilots in Nate's to suck down the sweeps so my higher flying Tojo's can get the dive, rinse and repeat. Where's the skill involved in that and who can sustain the losses in aircraft and pilots? If you use layered CAP one portion of your force gets hammered almost every time. I use layered CAP myself, but only because I have to in order to not to get completely slaughtered and it just plain feels wrong.

I'd like to see the dive be more random, or have experience, skill and aircraft ability determine a bounce rather than just arbitrarily giving the advantage to one side simply because one player set a higher altitude than the other. The initial dive, as Criptop mentions, can be decisive well before layered CAP even comes into play. Good luck combating higher altitude aircraft if your fighters are committed in driblets by the AI as often happens and watch every single one of your planes bounced and shot down. I've experienced this kind of result time after time and it wasn't until my other opponent and I set a limit that air battles stopped being completely one sided with the winner 95% of the time being the higher altitude aircraft, regardless of airframe.

Like I said, I'm not looking to rekindle the dive debate. I believe the dive is overpowered and exploitable (especially due to layering CAP) so to enjoy the game I look for alternatives through HR's or hopefully Symon's tweak to the air model in DBB will change the effect of the dive. As it is now, I don't enjoy air operations and far too much of my time is spent trying to avoid the effects of the dive, rather than immerse myself in simulating combat operations in the spirit of the times and at the altitudes those operations were flown at. I want the skill of my pilots and airframe specs to determine the outcome, not an overpowered dive routine.

Sorry for the hijack GreyJoy.

[witpqs]

I don't know how many layers are optimal, or even if there is an optimal number. It seems like more layers is better (but I do not mean that in the strictest sense), so put as many as you can with what you have. It also seems that you do have to have enough defenders (quantity) to drag the sweepers into that lower altitude fight that you want, which of course will include some defenders getting 'the dive'.

I've had good success with layered CAP with inferior aircraft, and so has Andav (curse you! [:D]), my current opponent.

I can say without any reservation that pilot experience and skills do make a BIG difference. As far who gets 'the dive' and when, I don't even bother to watch that. I hit the Esc key and only care about the outcome of the combat. Adjust what you are doing (altitude, training, etc.) to get the combat results. Forget about 'the dive'. It'll drive you nuts. [8D]

[KenchiSulla]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

The problem with this is the P-47's rate of climb sucks. I'm constantly getting dived on because the CAP can climb faster and get the bounce on occasion. The P-47 isn't the beast I've been led to believe it is when it's not flying at 42k and getting the dive bonus against lower altitude Japanese fighters.

Without going into game mechanics, the P47 was a slow climber. If you go in low (lower then the opposition) as a slow climber you are in trouble. It is the fighter pilots job to try and fight at an advantage..

If you take away the P47s altitude and thus a large part of its speed advantage what does it have left? Ruggedness and guns - thats about it...

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I don't know how many layers are optimal, or even if there is an optimal number. It seems like more layers is better (but I do not mean that in the strictest sense), so put as many as you can with what you have. It also seems that you do have to have enough defenders (quantity) to drag the sweepers into that lower altitude fight that you want, which of course will include some defenders getting 'the dive'.

I've had good success with layered CAP with inferior aircraft, and so has Andav (curse you! [:D]), my current opponent.

I can say without any reservation that pilot experience and skills do make a BIG difference. As far who gets 'the dive' and when, I don't even bother to watch that. I hit the Esc key and only care about the outcome of the combat. Adjust what you are doing (altitude, training, etc.) to get the combat results. Forget about 'the dive'. It'll drive you nuts. [8D]

With the 42k P-47 sweep all planes get dived on, so the top and middle and bottom layers suffer from the outset, and the numbers get massively extreme, up to 15:1 even with the best pilots in the best airframes available. Then when you multiply that by several months, years, you get a pilot quality discrepancy that is massive.

As stated above the 32k max HR we're using now (after having used 2nd best maneuver) has worked very well since we tried it out. With a massive set of sweeps the Allies still get 2-3 to 1, but not 10-15 to 1 anymore. Generally the lower levels of CAP are hit, but the upper layers do fight it out, and sometimes they get to dive into the lower sweepers after their dive. It was hit and run for the faster Allied planes so it does make sense that it's hard to get to the lower ones after they dive. This HR though does make the upper layers, with good piot sand the best frames duke it out a bit. That's good for the game and makes both sides continue to parry, thrust, deceive and surprise, which is where it gets fun!

[leehunt27@bloomberg.net]

tough luck on the CV battle, but I think Lokasenna has a point Greyjoy: you can still have fun creating Kamikaze traps and other decoys. The Japanese player must get a "kick" out of frustrating the Allied player endlessly

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: buutsy

Great AAR here, following it from the beginning !
Always asked myself if Stacking Limits isn´t too much in favour for the Allies because of the much much better firepower their troops have in the endgame .
Or am i´m getting something wrong here ? [8|]

No, i don't think so mate. The firepower is an issue, obviously, but consider that the defender has the terrain and the forts on his side, so it's a fair trade IMHO

I could be a problem. My 1945 American divisions are upgrading to have 27 sherman CS tanks and 27 "pershing" tanks. They get very powerful. Not to mention when the Soviets start to run amok. But this was the reality for Japan anyways so may not be out of order at all. It also will at least prevent the American from building even greater kill stacks which will eventually become unstoppable. So it is probably still OK.