Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Lowpe (J)

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]VPs[/font]
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Things are not looking good for the Empire in this area. The loss of Chungking hasn´t had much of an impact and I still have the Japanese LCUs left on the WC to harvest the VP for.

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]West Coast[/font]
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This was the latest attack here. I´m intentionally using mostly troops I want to buy out but don´t have the PPs for. The ones already bought out are recovering at SF getting ready for the next OP which should happen shortly.

The bulk of the USAAF is still here.

Ground combat at Camp Pendleton (226,77)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 60228 troops, 1166 guns, 2340 vehicles, Assault Value = 1759

Defending force 120878 troops, 1096 guns, 722 vehicles, Assault Value = 2357

Allied adjusted assault: 655

Japanese adjusted defense: 748

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 0)

Combat modifiers
Defender: disruption(-), preparation(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
4037 casualties reported
Squads: 267 destroyed, 129 disabled
Non Combat: 31 destroyed, 113 disabled
Engineers: 11 destroyed, 20 disabled
Guns lost 78 (35 destroyed, 43 disabled)
Vehicles lost 15 (5 destroyed, 10 disabled)
Units destroyed 1

Allied ground losses:
2240 casualties reported
Squads: 8 destroyed, 229 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 29 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 16 disabled
Guns lost 47 (1 destroyed, 46 disabled)
Vehicles lost 25 (3 destroyed, 22 disabled)

[Crackaces]

I just wanted to close my thoughts on IJ replacements and the optimization of IJ replacements given a number of divisions needing replacing ...

The previous poster referred to the fundamental rule in the manual:

Bases that have supplies that exceed double their supply requirements may use the excess to
provide replacements (as long as the ground unit has the Accept Replacements selection made
on its Ground Unit Information screen).

That seems to be some base rate in which replacements will occur. However, as also observed by crsutton (in bold):

If needed items are in the pool (or there are armament points ready to build them if the forces
are Japanese and the Production system for Japan is turned on), then they may be added to
the unit. The unit should gain at least 1 of each of the needed items (need is if TOE value is
greater than the disabled+ready value of the unit and any sub units on the map). The unit may
receive more than 1 of each item needed, but must pass a series of checks to do this. Each
base that the unit is within supply range of may send replacements, so there is an advantage
of being near lots of well stocked bases.

.... (Bolding mine for emphasis

This second behavior was the point of my original point of my post. It is my observation that the code appears to follow some supply algorithm in that it checks for "well stacked supplies" and given some bonus in number of replacements.
As crsutton posted this appears to be 25K supplies including a bonus on the current base above and beyond the 2x the rule book discusses.

This is also key for the Allies as Pearl Harbor for example does not provide the same rate of replacement as San Francisco because one supplied base vs. an interconnected set of well supplied bases. The same holds for Tokyo.
Now one other thing I have observed for Allies .. the off-board sites have some additional logic because the East Coast replaces faster than say Pearl in my observations.

So simply transporting fragments to pearl harbor is not going to be optimal.

The other off-hand posting the previous poster mentioned was that the IJ devices and vehicles simply "go poof and are there."

My posting simply wanted to discuss:

Ground units may have their individual weapons elements (i.e. infantry squads, artillery, etc.)
upgraded to newer elements as they become available if they are available in the replacement
pool or can be produced by the Japanese production system.

Simply especially vehicles .. enough points must be in the pool before the replacement takes place. Although specific types are not produced .. points are produced ..
The out of the box production numbers I understand produces an abundance of armament points .. I am not sure vehicle points
But I can say with some certainly that these platforms just do not go poof [;)]

If this requirement is met, the number of vehicle factories is added to the vehicle pool and this
number of heavy industry points is expended from the pool. When a vehicle is required to fill
out or replace a ground unit vehicle element, 1 vehicle point and 1 manpower point will be
expended from their pools for each load cost of the unit (For example, a newly created Type 95
Light Tank will use up 10 vehicle points and 10 manpower points).

When a non-vehicle weapon or squad is required to fill out or replace a ground unit element
armament points are expended. 1 armament point and manpower points equal to the load cost
of the squad will be expended from their pools for each squad. For weapons, armament points
and manpower points will be expended equal to the load cost of the device.

So in short my point is that replacing say 10 IJ divisions is a hefty cost in Supplies, Fuel, HI, and Armament and Vehicle points
Tanks .. Trucks ... etc are a big drain that might not be anticipated That cost if not planned for can be a big surprise as the game moves into 1945 .. Some earlier players shut
production off thinking they had enough and were unpleasantly surprised ...

In closing I have banned the previous poster .. mainly because I have time for an honest discussion ..
I have neither time nor the patients for somebody to exclaim "your wrong" when they have no clue of the fundamental context of the conversation which was
I believe optimal replacement strategy to get IJ units into action as soon as possible and the resources strategy required to do so .. not just simply replacing a unit using the basic rules in the manual ...

[Lokasenna]

OK. Have you actually calculated the numbers? I did, some time back. I've also played hundreds (thousands?) of turns as Japan. I know what the numbers look like, both globally and which bases are easier to supply, which are harder, how my units behave RE: replacements, etc. Where's your testing proof on the anecdotal "bases with 25,000 supply appear to work better" bit? I haven't seen any, did you perform a test? Here are my citations:
tm.asp?m=3760325

tm.asp?m=3399542&mpage=1&key=cost%2Creb ... 2365533%3B

The vast majority of devices in a division are of the squad type - which cost all of 1 ARM point each, and then supplies equal to their load cost. The example ID that GreyJoy posted in that second thread is a good example. It has a fair number of guns, etc., but notice how it only costs a grand total of 1605 ARM/VEH points to rebuild. That's not quite 10K HI, which is peanuts - especially since HI isn't the crunch point for a properly-run and -protected Japanese economy. It's always going to be supplies. To that end, my first link here gives the load costs for the 21st Division as an example. It comes to all of 8273 supplies and 7500 HI. That's not nothing, but it's not "huge", either. 80K Supplies from rebuilding 10 divisions? Japan can pay for that in about 6-7 days. Or maybe you want to argue that it's more like 150K supplies to rebuild all of these. OK, so that's more like 12-15 days of surplus to pay for it. Big whoop, as the kids used to say.

If Jocke wants to post a list of the units he thinks are destroyed, I can tell you how big the cost actually is and how much it does (or doesn't) matter to the IJA. And I'm not saying that the losses mean nothing, just that it's really not the huge economic or even long-term force strength hit that you seem to be arguing that it is.



Also, yes - devices absolutely do "just go poof" into units, directly from the ARM/VEH points pools rather than from the pools of devices (although that phrasing implies disappearing, at least in American English). Which is to say that if your tank regiment needs 5 tanks and you only have 1 in the device pool, you can still get all 5 tanks as the other 4 (or even all 5) will simply be paid for with VEH points rather than an already-produced device.


Besides all of that, I thought you green-buttoned me? Eesh.

[Rafid]

I don't want to get in the discussion about armament points and HI cost, I don't have any credible Japanese experience. I just want to point out, that there actually is an influence of supply level of the involved base on the drawing of replacements. The magic barrier is 20k (not 25k) and it requires the unit to be in rest mode. See this post by Alfred: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3711507

This is in accordance with my own observations: The replacement delay under these circumstance is only one day (instead of 3 under most other conditions), which makes the overall rebuilding a lot faster. Obviously it doesn’t get any cheaper either way.

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]Battle for Burma[/font]
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The IJA are in a dire situation on the coastal road. Although Allied Naval bombardments have ceased the Allied army are in pursuit.

Ground combat at 55,44 (near Akyab)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 29169 troops, 499 guns, 1673 vehicles, Assault Value = 1377

Defending force 34662 troops, 364 guns, 186 vehicles, Assault Value = 810

Allied adjusted assault: 867

Japanese adjusted defense: 491

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
2215 casualties reported
Squads: 43 destroyed, 57 disabled
Non Combat: 7 destroyed, 39 disabled
Engineers: 6 destroyed, 9 disabled
Guns lost 16 (4 destroyed, 12 disabled)
Vehicles lost 35 (24 destroyed, 11 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
304 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 41 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 24 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 14 (2 destroyed, 12 disabled)
Vehicles lost 147 (13 destroyed, 134 disabled)

Assaulting units:
3rd Carabiniers Regiment
632nd Tank Destroyer Battalion
763rd Tank Battalion
637th Tank Destroyer Battalion
7th Armoured Brigade
267th Armoured Brigade
255th Armoured Brigade
3rd Cavalry Regiment
254th Armoured Brigade
627th Tank Destroyer Battalion
2nd British Division
6th Medium Regiment
4th Field Artillery Battalion
25th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
24th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
23rd Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
2/1st Med Regiment
2/9th Field Regiment
2/11th Field Regiment
95th Heavy AA Regiment

Defending units:
5th Division
38th/B Division
2nd Tank Regiment
4th Guards Division
4th Ind.Mixed Regiment
38th/A Division
38th/C Division
21st Air Defense AA Regiment
17th Army
3rd Mortar Battalion
5th Mortar Battalion
36th Field AA Battalion
1st Hvy.Artillery Regiment
16th AA Regiment

The troops rest for 3 days and then attacks again.

Ground combat at 55,44 (near Akyab)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 28999 troops, 495 guns, 1659 vehicles, Assault Value = 1314

Defending force 33746 troops, 359 guns, 136 vehicles, Assault Value = 718

Allied adjusted assault: 521

Japanese adjusted defense: 1393

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
2008 casualties reported
Squads: 90 destroyed, 76 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 41 disabled
Engineers: 5 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 35 (12 destroyed, 23 disabled)
Vehicles lost 9 (1 destroyed, 8 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
302 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 23 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 43 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Vehicles lost 109 (8 destroyed, 101 disabled)

I´m rotating some units after this attack. I want to bring the 6th Chinese Corp into the fight to gain some experience. On the Imphal road the troops are resting while the airforce pound the 25th division.

The IJN is moving forward though.

CA Haguro is moving to Padang (44,85).

Unless Jeff brings the KB into the Bay of Bengal I can deal with pretty much anything he sends. Not going to show my cards unless I have to though. I want to keep Jeff guessing where the Navy went.

[JocMeister]

Also got a nice present last turn.

CA Ashigara is reported to have been sunk near Little Andaman on Jan 19, 1943

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]Hellcat month![/font]
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Not quite like P47 month but pretty darn close!

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]Imphal road[/font]
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The 25th division is forced to retreat after 3 attacks.

Ground combat at Imphal (60,40)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 28954 troops, 461 guns, 471 vehicles, Assault Value = 951

Defending force 9570 troops, 102 guns, 25 vehicles, Assault Value = 199

Allied adjusted assault: 434

Japanese adjusted defense: 97

Allied assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 0)

Allied forces CAPTURE Imphal !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), fatigue(-), experience(-)
supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
2219 casualties reported
Squads: 102 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 90 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 8 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 31 (31 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Vehicles lost 23 (23 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units retreated 2

Allied ground losses:
125 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 17 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
7th Australian Division
6th Australian Division
50th Tank Brigade

Defending units:
25th Division
2nd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion

The IJA continue to deteriorate in Burma. To my knowledge there are no longer any Japanese combat effective divisions left in the area.

I have pulled out the 18th UK and 1st USMC division for some R&R at Calcutta. The 1st will move on to Bombay and then board ships for the voyage to Cape. The 18th will form a reserve together with the 19th Indian for now.

[Lokasenna]

It would probably be faster for you to send the USMC back to the Pacific via Australia, even if you have to dogleg very far to the southwest...

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

It would probably be faster for you to send the USMC back to the Pacific via Australia, even if you have to dogleg very far to the southwest...

Probably. But since the fleet just started upgrading I´m in no real rush and sending them via CT will save some fuel. [:)]

[Barb]

No posts for a week? I am the only one who feels the "Withdrawal of the sheep" syndrome? [X(]

[RangerJoe]

Nope, you are not the only one. [>:]

[Barb]

Time to start counting sheeps? [:D]

[Lokasenna]

I'm counting sheep, I'm running out.

[obvert]

Lets try another tack ...

Had any good IPAs lately Jocke?

Got to Copenhagen recently and tried Warpigs and Mikeler for the first time. Amazing! [&o]

[JocMeister]

Sorry guys. Motivation isn´t the best right now and a busy schedule isn´t helping. We are flipping turns though but not much is happening.

Here is a short sitrep!

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Sorry guys. Motivation isn´t the best right now and a busy schedule isn´t helping. We are flipping turns though but not much is happening.

Here is a short sitrep!

True to your word, Joc, that was short! [:D]

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]Battle for Burma[/font]
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We are still making progress here. On the Imphal road the 25th Japanese division is completely smashed in several successful attacks.

On the Akyab road its slower going due to lack of supply. I´m also letting the 6th Chinese Corp get some combat experience and that slows things down. I have stood down the naval bombardments as the fleet is refitting and preparing for the next move. If Jeff has done his math he should see that there is 6 allied divisions missing from Burma right now. That probably worries him!

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]SOPAC[/font]
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There are signs that Japanese resistance will stiffen here as Japanese battleships was spotted at Manus just 3 turns ago. Other then that we are pushing forward unopposed.

Fleet has mostly departed the area for other duties although we still have some capabilities left. Waiting for some LSTs to arrive from Panama before I start moving on Horn.

Buna will be in allied hands very shortly. As usual at this time I´m mostly being held back by base expansion lagging behind.