The Thread

[niceguy2005]

70 degrees huh Robert. Can I come visit you. [;)]

What really stinks about the snow is we have mostly been getting it here in Denver. The mountains haven't gotten much and the skiing has been terrible.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

70 degrees huh Robert. Can I come visit you. [;)]

Kinda gloomy, though - gray skies, fog and mist... still, i prefer that to tons and tons of snow... [8D]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

So did Chang's book discuss why such atrocities might have occured? I'm just curious myself. I have not read any book specifically on the subject but IIRC, part of the source of Japan's ire was that the Chinese put up such stiff resistence in Nanking that it frustrated the IJA to no end. I have read similar accounts, like in the DEI, where staunch resistence by Allied forces was seen as a personal front and an embarrasment to Japanese forces. It seems that the Japanese would then take out that frustration on whatever civilian population, or defenders were left. Many instances of "Japanese war crimes" seemed to occur after such resistence. Bataan, Guam, Java (or was it Sumatra), Nanking all fall into that category.

Yes....It's been a while since i read the book and unfortunately it (and the notes and highlighted texts contained therin) are currently packed away in a pickup truck) but i'll try to dredge up what i can so apologies in advance for any errors. Some of this is my interpretation as well:

Yes, part of Japan's ire was that the Chinese had the audacity to fight back, however ineptly (for the most part...with a few notable exceptions). The Japanese [and by that i mean those in the military mostly as well as elements of the government] envisioned an Asian brotherhood that would throw off the shackles and influences of Western Imerialism in all it's forms. One theory expressed is that the Japanese saw the Chinese in particular as an older brother that should by all rights, want the same thing and given her historical position, SHOULD have done something about it rather than let herself get degraded and pushed around. When the Chinese failed to see the light of this vision, it was felt that the older brother needed "correcting", make that stern "correcting".

The more traditional theory of course is that Japan simply wanted to join the imperialism game and China was the best most opportunistic place to do this. As an Aussie friend of mine once said, what was wrong about the Japanese was not in that they attempted Imperialism [given her 'teachers' the West and her desire not to fall victim herself], but in "How" they went about it....with a brutality that shocked the world....even Nazis.

Whichever theory (or both) when the Chinese resisted the Japanese it became doubly insulting. Here Japan was trying to lead Asia into a new era but the "brothers" were actually fighting back. The corrupt state of the Chinese government and military, and the poor state of China's military exaserbated this because of the contrast with the tight, well trained and organized Japanese. You know the whole "bushido" thing....loyalty and devotion....fearless onto death. Finding the Chinese in such poor condition served to bring out contempt in the Japanese. Contempt soon lead to hatred...esp if those same Chinese managed to inflict casualties on the elite soldiers of the Emperor.

Thus came Nanking. The Chinese initially IIRC put up a spirited if fractured defense of the city and at least slowed the Japanese advance and inflicted heavy casaulties. When the Chinese armies finally broke and fled, the victorious Japanese entered the city and began rounding up enemy soldiers who had deserted so that they could be "dealt with" (i.e. no rejoining future Chinese armies that could resist Japan. But that was only part of it. Another part was the Japanese idea of keeping their men happy. In the west..."comfort" women were voluntary....while discouraged there was little that could be done to prevent men from seeking houses of prostituion to satiate needs etc etc. In Japan, "comfort" woman was not only embraced but institutionalized and local populations were forcibly employed.

These elements were but part of the stew though that cannot fully explain what happened in Nanking. A maddness seemed to take over the IJA and things quickly spiraled out of control. The commanding General lost control of his troops to the point that he later felt great shame (post war) for what had happened. Failure to enforce discipline at the junior officer level was largely responsible.....henious acts were often left unpunished which quickly filtered down to most of the men (anything goes!) and it just spiraled completely out of control to the point where you had beheading contests and mass rapes. The book is graphic...and has some graphic pictures....I don't need to see the video believe me.

[niceguy2005]

Thanks Nik. I don't think the Japanese army was the first and unfortunately probably won't be the last army to fall victim to that sort of madness. It is up to the commanders to manage, not only the battle, but provide peace and security once the battle has concluded. Otherwise, all kinds of unpleasant and untended things can occur.

[Nikademus]

NP..

A similar parraell to the DEHUMANIZING effect of war can be drawn from our own history in attempting to at least understand how human beings can do what was done in China. In Vietnam, we had alot of troops there.....objectives were vague (same in China.....sort of.....China didn't "play by the Japanese plan thus there was no end in sight), your surrounded by a hostile or at least "indifferent" population, with strange customs and a language barrier....your enemy carries the same face and mannerisms and any one of the citizens could potentially become or could actually "be" an enemy soldier. Your under stress...you could die...or be maimed. Eventually for some...you might come to hold the same contempt, even hatred...borne largely out of frustration as well as the differences mentioned and take actions which could (and did) include the occasional attrocity. IIRC that idiot "Sgt Calley" used that notable incident in Vietnam to rattle the cages of people who live in the States.

The Japanese example of course is noted for its extremeity and brutality. The clash of culture....ideals... etc.....all of it was on a grand scale that i hope the world will never see again.

[Dixie]

Good afternoon gentlemen...
 
 
...and Americans [:'(]

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: Dixie

Good afternoon gentlemen...


...and Americans [:'(]

Morning Dixie, not even lunch time here yet.

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Morning Dixie, not even lunch time here yet.

It'll be time for the evening meal here soon. I remember the time difference from when I visited, take off from the US was about 1000 local IIRC, we landed here and it was about 2300.

[DuckofTindalos]

Ahhh, The Fast Show...[:D]

"...<unintelligible>... But, in my own defence, I was very, VERY drunk..."

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: Terminus


"...<unintelligible>... But, in my own defence, I was very, VERY drunk..."

<mumble mumble>..made completely out of rubber!

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Dixie

ORIGINAL: Terminus


"...<unintelligible>... But, in my own defence, I was very, VERY drunk..."

<mumble mumble>..made entirely of rubber!

[&:] ???

[Dixie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/fastshow/
&nbsp;

[Nikademus]

wish our provider carried BBC America.

[Dixie]

Me? The 13th Duke of Wybourne? Here? In a French maid's finishing
school? At three o'clock in the morning? With my reputation?
Bingo!
&nbsp;
Me? The 13th Duke of Wybourne? Here? In a Student Nurses' Hall
of Residence? With my reputation? At three o'clock in the morning?
Has no one thought of the consequences?
&nbsp;
Me? The 13th Duke of Wybourne? Here? In a sixth form girl's
dormitory? At three o'clock in the morning? With my reputation?
What were they thinking of?
&nbsp;
Me? The 13th Duke of Wybourne? Here? In a women's prison?
At three o'clock in the morning? With my reputation?
Oh, well. Penal correctitude it is, then.
&nbsp;
Me? The 13th Duke of Wybourne? Here? In the changing rooms of the
Brazilian synchronised swimming team?
Let's hope I live up to my reputation!
&nbsp;
Me? The 13th Duke of Wybourne? Here? Alone with my best friend's
wife? At three o'clock in the morning? With my reputation? While he's
downstairs?
And what does he think I'm going to do? Sing her a lullaby or something?
&nbsp;
Me? The 13th Duke of Wybourne? Here? On a farm? Unattended? With
my reputation? They must be absolutely stark raving bonkers!
&nbsp;
I'd better not post the rest, lest it cause trouble

[Dixie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAB-Gmru ... ed&search=


[:D][:D][:D]

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Dixie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAB-Gmru ... ed&search=


[:D][:D][:D]

i think he is speaking of the room where they keep Nik... [:'(]

EDIT: now how did you manage to change the link [&:] - it was just this guy doing "mumble mumble... The whole thing was made completely out of rubber!"

[Nikademus]

Is it padded? I like padding......

[RUPD3658]

Home sick tithe. I really hate to have to waste a sick day being sick. [:(]

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
EDIT: now how did you manage to change the link [&:] - it was just this guy doing "mumble mumble... The whole thing was made completely out of rubber!"

I edited the link, I thought the first one might get a bit repetative. I've found even more fast show on yootube [:D]

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fast+show



One for the Grown ups [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D] Not sure it'e entirely safe for viewing at work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xMGNKI_gpQ

[RUPD3658]

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

On a similar subject, I love the History Channel. I'm sitting here listening to a show on the Soviet space program where whoever wrote this drivel seems to be trying to place sideways blame for the death of the 3 US astronauts in the training fire by saying something along the lines of that the accident could have been avoided if the Russians had released the truth about their accidents. Umm.....[X(]

Did your see "Dogfights" in HC last week? The comercials were talking about the duel between the Japanese Battleship YAMAMOTO and Taffy 3. [:-] I saw three commercails with this before they fixed it.