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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: the Struggle for India

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

ORIGINAL: Yakface

I'd be very careful about trying to defend Bombay.  What if he marches a unit past bombay and cuts off your retreat?  Sure you will have slowed him down, but also allowed him to destroy some of your units in detail.  realistically if you are up against overwhelming odds, I'd just run for Malir and Karachi.

I've considered that.
If he bypass Bombay and goes for Malir/Karachi, that will be a victory for me.
Consider that as long as Bombay remains in my hands the route from Aden to Karachi remains open. that means that, probably with the help of the RN we can keep on sending men, supplies and planes to Karachi.
If Bombay falls in Japan's hands, a bunch of Betties can easily close down the gilf of Aden and the KB can operate without problems upwards to Karachi.
However he will have to chose: going for both (bombay and karachi) at the same time or going just for one stronghold.

Keep in mind that my goal, at this stage, is to keep the Aden route open as long as i can.
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TenChiMato
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RE: the Struggle for India

Post by TenChiMato »

ORIGINAL: Yakface

I'd be very careful about trying to defend Bombay.  What if he marches a unit past bombay and cuts off your retreat?  Sure you will have slowed him down, but also allowed him to destroy some of your units in detail.  realistically if you are up against overwhelming odds, I'd just run for Malir and Karachi.

at the same time it will make him lose time; more time to strengthen Karachi; more time for the operation against the Marshalls. In this regard the loss of several units at Bombay (less the cadres) can be a worthy trade. In the end many of the LCUs in India will be evacuated as cadres anyway. Trollelite believes too much in the kessel strategy imo. This can play against him if he overfocus and disregard the strategic side effects of this overcommitment.
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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: the Struggle for India

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

Consider how much time does normally it takes to Japan to conquer Manila, with all those useless PI units....and Manila usually runs out of supplies very soon....Bombay with nearly 1000 AVs fully suppied , 5 forts (at least) can be a tough nut to crack...and during that time i can send more units to Karachi...
Also must be taken into consideration the presence of the AA nests at Bombay...they can inflict a great damage to the IJAAF
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Yakface
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RE: the Struggle for India

Post by Yakface »

Sorry, I probably over emphasised things.   I wasn't trying to say don't-do-it, but it needs care and overwhelming odds against you should make it a 'don't'.  It all depends upon the number of troops your opponent brings to the party.
 
If you think you can hold Bombay and use it to push the Japanese back out of India - fine.
 
If you think Japan has brought enough troops that he can afford to put a blocking force in to freeze your units in place, bring some bombers around to stop evacuation by sea and then just by-pass it, only coming back to beseige it and destroy the units there once the rest of India has fallen, then you will have gained nothing (not even time as there a multiple routes to Karachi) and would have done better to concentrate your units.
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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: the Struggle for India

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

ORIGINAL: Yakface

Sorry, I probably over emphasised things.   I wasn't trying to say don't-do-it, but it needs care and overwhelming odds against you should make it a 'don't'.  It all depends upon the number of troops your opponent brings to the party.

If you think you can hold Bombay and use it to push the Japanese back out of India - fine.

If you think Japan has brought enough troops that he can afford to put a blocking force in to freeze your units in place, bring some bombers around to stop evacuation by sea and then just by-pass it, only coming back to beseige it and destroy the units there once the rest of India has fallen, then you will have gained nothing (not even time as there a multiple routes to Karachi) and would have done better to concentrate your units.

Your comment is wise Yakface. But, as i stated above, Karachi won't be left undefended. Almost 1200 AVs are planned to arrive here from southern India, plus everything that appears at Aden.
Under this idea, Bombay cannot be left be conquered. If Bombay falls, the the KB will steam along with the whole Combined Fleet into the Gulf of Aden. Untill Bombay remains in our hands the connection between Karachi and Aden is more or less safe and the flow of units and supplies can go on.
How many AVs will he need to defeat 1200 AVs in a urban Hex beyond let's say 5 forts?
The RN would also play an important role in this match...the Fleet in Being strategy force him not to commit the KB in the western Indian coast cause he will have to face both my CVs and my LBAs...but this rule works only if Bombay, and so the major port south of Karachi, remains in our hands...
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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: the Struggle for India

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

without considering dice and rolls...800 AVs, under 5 forts in urban hex....800x5x4....16.000 AVs...can be possible? Am i wrong in the calculation?...seems a bit too much...
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Mistmatz
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RE: the Struggle for India

Post by Mistmatz »

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

without considering dice and rolls...800 AVs, under 5 forts in urban hex....800x5x4....16.000 AVs...can be possible? Am i wrong in the calculation?...seems a bit too much...


I wouldn't count on the forts as they can be brought down (albeit costly), so its more like 800x4 = 3200
If you gained knowledge through the forum, why not putting it into the AE wiki?

http://witp-ae.wikia.com/wiki/War_in_th ... ition_Wiki

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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: the Struggle for India

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

so to achieve a 2-1 without considering the forts at Bombay he'll need some 6400 AVs...which is some 12 japanese divisions, right?....not bad.
If he wants to conquer it he'll need to bomb Bombay back to stoneage in order to suck my supplies out. To do so it takes a lot of time and a lot of planes...
I'm getting more confident[;)]
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Jim D Burns
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RE: the Struggle for India

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: Yakface
would have done better to concentrate your units.

Hi G.H.,

I agree, I think you’re placing too much faith in the urban terrains ability to keep your units alive at Bombay. Manila holds out for as long as it does only against 4 divisions, 6 or 8 divisions could easily overwhelm Manila long before supplies run out, and Manila has closer to 1,500 AV. 1000 AV at Bombay is doomed if he simply steps on it with an uber stack.

While the AAA will hurt his bombers, it will also be hammered by the air attacks in return, and he has enough air power to hit the base and many individual land units every turn. So your unit’s disruption will be high making overcoming the base easier.

Bombay will work if your opponent doesn’t send a large 6-8 division stack at it. If he does, you’ll lose everything there for little gain. It’s all about the numbers, do the math, figure out what his AV is and you’ll get an idea of the minimum AV you need to live. 1,000 AV is too low, I guarantee it.

Your only long-term hope in India is to pile everything into a single large redoubt. It will take 4-6 months to get another 1,000 AV into Karachi to replace the 1,000 AV that you’re sending to Bombay. And Karachi will fall long before that can happen.

The critical time is now, not 6 months from now. Karachi has to hold or everything you have in India is lost. If you lose the land army in India, it would make the re-conquest later almost impossible.

Of course I may be over-pessimistic about the ability of your troops to hold Karachi. I’d say 3,000 AV there would be enough to hold over time against anything he throws at it. If you’ve got that and another 1,000 to spare at Bombay, then you’re good to go I guess. Anything less at Karachi and I think you’re helping your opponent to divide and conquer.

Also with so many of his armor units coming ashore at Vizagapatam, I’d say your opponent plans to race your retreating units towards Karachi, Bombay and Delhi in an attempt to cut you off. At this point I wouldn’t count on all your units getting to where they’re needed anymore, his armor is too fast for them to beat.

Get everyone moving ASAP now, lest he trap huge chunks of your force with his armor. It may already be too late for the units around Calcutta. I wonder if they have enough punch to blast through an armor only blocking force around Delhi.

Jim

Edit: You're not playing with Japanese troops, so your units all have low experience, low morale, low everything. They need to survive the initial onslaught to get their experience up high enough to count on them defending a base without having a huge hit to their adjusted AV.

What happened to my units at Singapore is a good example of what I mean. A couple months into the fighting, their experience and morale became high enough that suddenly it became apparent that they would hold until supplies ran out. Prior to that however their adjusted AV’s were pretty erratic due to low experience and morale.

Your units are going to need a month or two of sustained fighting before they too become dependable.
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TenChiMato
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RE: the Struggle for India

Post by TenChiMato »

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

without considering dice and rolls...800 AVs, under 5 forts in urban hex....800x5x4....16.000 AVs...can be possible? Am i wrong in the calculation?...seems a bit too much...

There is a +0.33 bonus per fort level so its 800*(1+5*0,33)*4 theorically around 8500 discounting disruption, support, supplies issues etc ...
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Yakface
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RE: the Struggle for India

Post by Yakface »

Look at it this way:

Lets say for the sake of argument he brings 7000 AV to India and Alles have 2000 split 50:50 between Karachi and Bombay (ignore the numbers it's the principle that's important).  If I were the Japanese I would take 1000 of my AV and stick it in Bombay, (with IJA ZOC's on all sides of Bombay the Allied units are now frozen place).  Same thing with 1000AV in Karachi.  Bombers & fighters at Malir, Poona and Ahmenabad to keep airfields closed and Naval bombers to stop shipping.  I can then use the 5000AV to turn the original 7:2 odds into 6:1 at either Bombay or Karachi. 

Yes the bombers with take losses to flak, but they have absolutely no importance if the city falls in the end.  Japan can always replace the losses, even the pikots)I have no problem with putting raw recruits in bombers.......putting them in fighters would be entirely another thing.

As for your calculation, I wouldn't rely on it.  All sorts of things have an effect (bombers can cause a lot of diruption having an effect totally disproportionate to the casulaties they inflict) and as the defender you are subject to impact results on lucky IJA dice rolls, bringing forts down, that will wreck your calculations.

Not saying don't, just be very sure because you are breaking one of the cardinal military maxims.....don't fight divided when the enemy can concentrate. 

edit.....for totally incoherrent maxim
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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: the Struggle for India

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

Hi Jim, thanks a lot for your suggestions.
First the last thing... His armour units are pushing towards Dacca, where i've already ordered everyone to move towards Karachi. I'd say that by now most of my units are safe from the running japanese armour- At Delhi i have 100 AVs just waiting there, just in case...ready to redeploy to Karachi as soon as the front becomes tighter.
The real key now is to save the heroes of Madras. They should make it...let's hope.
However i do not agree completely with you. 1000 AVs in a urban hex aren't so easy to destroy. It will take him lot of time, even if he brings every division he has (i think he has some 8 divisions plus probably 5 Bdes in India). You've seen at Madras few days ago... 300 AVs held fiercely against 1300 AVs, despite some daily bombardments both from air and from sea.
I'm not saying thatBombay is unconquerable, but i would like to stress and underline the strategical importance of Bombay: without Bombay Karachi will be completed isolated from Aden and, sooner or later, she'll fall, while the RN won't be able to resuplly it nor sending men from Aden because of the KB and the Betties/Nells threat.
 
No, i'll take my chances and try to hold both Bombay and Karachi at the same time
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Yakface
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RE: the Struggle for India

Post by Yakface »

If you want to stop Ms Betty and Nell interferring with transports heading for Karachi, then won't you need to hold Ahmenabad, Malir and Poona (or at least keep them closed by bombing them)?
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Jim D Burns
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RE: the Struggle for India

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner
while the RN won't be able to resuplly it nor sending men from Aden because of the KB and the Betties/Nells threat.

Sounds good G.H., but you must realize no matter if he controls Bombay or not, Karachi and Bombay will both soon be isolated from Aden. A level 4 airfield inland is just as devastating as one at Bombay given the ranges of his Betty's and Nell's.

So you have to assume supplies will eventually dry up no matter what you do. That being the case, can 25% of what you plan to have there hold the city?

Jim
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Yakface
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RE: the Struggle for India

Post by Yakface »

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

No, i'll take my chances and try to hold both Bombay and Karachi at the same time

I'm genuinely interested to see how this one turns out (and that's not a euphamism for 'I want to be around for the I-told- you-so'). It will create some interesting struggles for air and naval dominance prior and during the sieges.
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RE: the Struggle for India

Post by goodboyladdie »

I always fight with my Divisions divided. This slows down the attrition rate. It is not gamey, because Divisions normally fight in Brigade Groups with one or two engaged with the other one/two in reserve. If one unit is at the point of an attack and gets heavily disrupted the others can still fight. If an entire Division gets disrupted you instantly have problems.
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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: the Struggle for India

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 02/03/42
 
We managed to abbandon Madras. Hopefully we can arrive safely before the running japanese bastards...
My units are heavy pounded by KB and LBA from Cylon.
Now more than 150k japanese are ashore in India...wow! It's gonna be thrilling...
Nothing more to report. Now we just have to rereat in order...
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Madras, at 17,21
 
Japanese Ships
CA Kako
CA Chokai
CA Maya
CA Atago
CA Takao
 
 
Allied ground losses:
231 casualties reported
Guns lost 5
 
Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 32
Port hits 5
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 3
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 99th Indian Brigade, at 16,20
 
Japanese aircraft
E13A1 Jake x 8
E7K2 Alf x 9
Ki-49 Helen x 67
Ki-46-II Dinah x 9
 
No Japanese losses
 
 
Allied ground losses:
130 casualties reported
Guns lost 2
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 23rd Indian Division, at 17,21
 
Japanese aircraft
E13A1 Jake x 21
E7K2 Alf x 12
Ki-21-II Sally x 147
 
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-II Sally: 2 damaged
 
 
Allied ground losses:
244 casualties reported
Guns lost 2
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 3rd Indian Brigade, at 18,21
 
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 28
D3A2 Val x 112
B5N2 Kate x 199
 
No Japanese losses
 
 
Allied ground losses:
478 casualties reported
Guns lost 8
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 102nd Reserve Division, at 43,59
 
Japanese aircraft
D3A2 Val x 22
 
Japanese aircraft losses
D3A2 Val: 1 damaged
 
 
Allied ground losses:
62 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
 

Day Air attack on 9th RDH Cavalry Tank Regiment, at 17,18
 
Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 30
 
No Japanese losses
 
 
Allied ground losses:
65 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 3
 

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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: the Struggle for India

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 02/04/42


Two more days of passion for the allies in India.
The Japanese are advancing at an incredible pace! The fly on the railways like they were Hermes' sons!!!
The heroes of Madras were shock attacked and pushed back northwards, just on the crossroad between Madras and Vizagapatam...i hoped to be able to flee away avoiding the contact with the enemy...it will be a long retreat...[:(]
More important there are two big SC TFs stationed at Trivandum (just in the corner of southern India)...they're probably ready to smash one of the western coast port....I have to defend Bombay, so i'm moving the RN just to be in the right position...oh boy, it's gonna be tough...this match is really sucking away my menthal energies...[:D]
However Trollelite seem to know exactly what to do everywhere and whenever...this invasion was really well planned...he knows better than me the composition of my forces and their actual strenght...there are no surprises for him.

Anyway, we started finally to load our troops at PH for "Retribution" operation. 2 Divisions, 2 RCTs, 1 Tank Rgt and 2 base forces, along with 1 CD unit. This will be the first wave towards Maloep.
At the same time 2 Bdes are loading at Canton Isl.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Madras

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 47100 troops, 200 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 882

Defending force 2508 troops, 2 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 40

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 2

Japanese max assault: 1688 - adjusted assault: 1313

Allied max defense: 26 - adjusted defense: 49

Japanese assault odds: 26 to 1 (fort level 2)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Madras base !!!


Japanese ground losses:
259 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Allied ground losses:
72 casualties reported
Guns lost 2


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!






AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 02/05/42


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Madras Naval Base Force, at 16,21

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 29

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
48 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 20,20 (between Vezagapatam and Madras...he managed to move 1000 Avs along with 3 hex, cross a river and shock attack in 3 days[X(][X(]...i realy have to learn how to play)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 39504 troops, 174 guns, 59 vehicles, Assault Value = 973

Defending force 2474 troops, 12 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 73

Japanese max assault: 574 - adjusted assault: 199

Allied max defense: 55 - adjusted defense: 16

Japanese assault odds: 12 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
289 casualties reported
Guns lost 3
Vehicles lost 1

Allied ground losses:
109 casualties reported
Guns lost 5


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!





Sorry guys, i'm at work, so no maps for now....I'll be on mountains starting from today...the struggle will be back on Sunday evening (CET)
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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: the Struggle for India

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

Oh, forgot something.
He's know aware that i've sent bombers and fighters to the PI, cause he started to recon every single base at Luzon in the last turns. He doesn't seem to care much. Didn't noticed any concentration of enemy planes at Formosa...however the problem is that also here the surprise is gone[:o]
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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: the Struggle for India

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

here's the current situation map

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