"Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

[Panama]

ORIGINAL: polarenper

With regards to the number of aircraft, I might say that it's more important to have casualties and air superiority correct. I say this because the Axis/Soviet loss ratio was pretty amazing, numbers that were disproportionate to any other conflict. Put another way, how many Soviet Aircraft would it take to equal one German Aircraft? If desired, I could take the time to provide turn by turn numbers from my current playtest, or I could send save files from specific turns to anyone that wanted to investigate.

I intend to answer this in more detail, but i need more figures in order to do so. In short, without Soviet figures there is no point to messing with the German ones and pretending to be closer to history.

I will open a new thread to address the larger concern here.

Shot 3 of 4

[Panama]

ORIGINAL: polarenper

With regards to the number of aircraft, I might say that it's more important to have casualties and air superiority correct. I say this because the Axis/Soviet loss ratio was pretty amazing, numbers that were disproportionate to any other conflict. Put another way, how many Soviet Aircraft would it take to equal one German Aircraft? If desired, I could take the time to provide turn by turn numbers from my current playtest, or I could send save files from specific turns to anyone that wanted to investigate.

I intend to answer this in more detail, but i need more figures in order to do so. In short, without Soviet figures there is no point to messing with the German ones and pretending to be closer to history.

I will open a new thread to address the larger concern here.

Shot 4 of 4

Hope this helps.

[samba_liten]

ORIGINAL: Panama

ORIGINAL: polarenper

With regards to the number of aircraft, I might say that it's more important to have casualties and air superiority correct. I say this because the Axis/Soviet loss ratio was pretty amazing, numbers that were disproportionate to any other conflict. Put another way, how many Soviet Aircraft would it take to equal one German Aircraft? If desired, I could take the time to provide turn by turn numbers from my current playtest, or I could send save files from specific turns to anyone that wanted to investigate.

I intend to answer this in more detail, but i need more figures in order to do so. In short, without Soviet figures there is no point to messing with the German ones and pretending to be closer to history.

I will open a new thread to address the larger concern here.

Shot 4 of 4

Hope this helps.

Thank you muchly!

[Telumar]

Panama - what's the source of the files/numbers on Soviet aircraft?

[Panama]

Got them last year. Can't recall the name of the site. I think it's gone now. I tend to get screen shots of things I think I might use because you can never tell when it will all vanish. The East Front is a fascinating and tragic history subject. I really don't think there are exact numbers for anything.

[sPzAbt653]

The news for 'GD' withdrawal showed up on turn 65, but I remember it left already. I checked and it looks like events 483 and 484 handle this. I didn't check for anything other than 'GD', so I don't know if anything else is involved.

[BigDuke66]

I have to correct some info about the arrival date of the 8. Panzerdivision, the data of the 39. Korps in which it was wasn't clear and I thought it stayed north of lake Ilmen but the Korps was ordered to the Cholm area on 18th January 1942 leaving back its units and taking over the 218. Infantriedivision that arrived there at the end of January 1942 and later the 8th PzD that arrived there in March, so 8. PzD should come in as regular reinforcement in March 1942 near Cholm and the TO should punish the player if he pulls it before March 1942.

Looking at the additional info about the 39. Korps I still think you should keep at 16. Armee as the 2 Korps of this army hold the area between the lakes and south of them to keep contact with HG Mitte and as soon as the lakes freeze the German player will have trouble holding the line there and I'm sure the Russian player will take its chance, if you put the 39. Korps(and its hotchpotch of Korps assets: Jagdkommando 8, MG-Bataillon 10, Polizei-Bataillon 65, 1 Kp. Polizei-Bataillon 53, Pionier-Lehr-Bataillon 1, Pionier-Bataillon 656, Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 184, Fla-Bataillon 618, Panzerjäger-Kompanie 14./IR 397) with 218. ID and later the 8. PzD there it should help.
Additionally you should also take a look at the reinforcements that originally went to 10. & 2. Korps of the 16. Armee, maybe the should be kept there instead of placing them somewhere else(2PG).

[sPzAbt653]

I think in this scenario that the German player will be shifting infantry units of 9th Army on a northwest axis to keep in contact with 16th Army, while taking advantage of the units being sent to 2nd Pz Group in order to help protect their ever extending right flank. 2nd Pz Group's northeast axis of advance also tends to squeeze the 4th Army out of the line, making their units available for deployment elsewhere. At least, that's what I've found works.

Pestilence:
I've never used this stuff so I don't know exactly how it works. I'm guessing (so that someone might verify or disprove) that if a pestilence value is set by event that it remains at that setting each turn until reset to another value. I would next guess that if it is set to a value and that value is never zero'd, that the value will remain for the duration of the scenario. That's a long way to get to the idea that my Germans are still suffering pestilence effects after the '41 winter. [:(]

[briantopp]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I think in this scenario that the German player will be shifting infantry units of 9th Army on a northwest axis to keep in contact with 16th Army, while taking advantage of the units being sent to 2nd Pz Group in order to help protect their ever extending right flank. 2nd Pz Group's northeast axis of advance also tends to squeeze the 4th Army out of the line, making their units available for deployment elsewhere. At least, that's what I've found works.

Pestilence:
I've never used this stuff so I don't know exactly how it works. I'm guessing (so that someone might verify or disprove) that if a pestilence value is set by event that it remains at that setting each turn until reset to another value. I would next guess that if it is set to a value and that value is never zero'd, that the value will remain for the duration of the scenario. That's a long way to get to the idea that my Germans are still suffering pestilence effects after the '41 winter. [:(]

I was assuming the opposite, and set up a pestillence event every winter turn for the first winter. I'll check and put in a pertillence 0 event if it isn't already there.

[briantopp]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I think in this scenario that the German player will be shifting infantry units of 9th Army on a northwest axis to keep in contact with 16th Army, while taking advantage of the units being sent to 2nd Pz Group in order to help protect their ever extending right flank. 2nd Pz Group's northeast axis of advance also tends to squeeze the 4th Army out of the line, making their units available for deployment elsewhere. At least, that's what I've found works.

I agree and that's what the German PO is set up to do -- 9th army assumes a defensive position north of Kalinin.

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: briantopp

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I think in this scenario that the German player will be shifting infantry units of 9th Army on a northwest axis to keep in contact with 16th Army, while taking advantage of the units being sent to 2nd Pz Group in order to help protect their ever extending right flank. 2nd Pz Group's northeast axis of advance also tends to squeeze the 4th Army out of the line, making their units available for deployment elsewhere. At least, that's what I've found works.

Pestilence:
I've never used this stuff so I don't know exactly how it works. I'm guessing (so that someone might verify or disprove) that if a pestilence value is set by event that it remains at that setting each turn until reset to another value. I would next guess that if it is set to a value and that value is never zero'd, that the value will remain for the duration of the scenario. That's a long way to get to the idea that my Germans are still suffering pestilence effects after the '41 winter. [:(]

I was assuming the opposite, and set up a pestillence event every winter turn for the first winter. I'll check and put in a pertillence 0 event if it isn't already there.

Yes that's it. You just need one event to set the Pestilence level which will stay for the duration and/or until you set another level by another event.

[Telumar]

As an additional info, i copied this from the F1 help file:

The Force Pestilence Level


This value represents a force’s vulnerability to disease losses, and is limited to the range 0 to 50. It sets a percentage of equipment lost by every unit in the force on every turn. Infantry, horse transport and cavalry equipment is lost at this rate, while all other types of equipment are lost at half the rate. Within each individual location, the losses are multiplied by:

Condition
/Pestilence Loss Multiplier

frozen, not snowy
1.1

frozen, showy
1.25

hot, not mud or marsh
1.1

hot, mud or marsh
1.25

unsupplied
1.25

seaborne land unit
1.25


These multipliers are cumulative. The worst cases are unsupplied frozen, snowy or unsupplied hot muddy locations, with a multiplier of 1.5625. If the overall force pestilence value were set at 3%, losses in the worst case situations would actually be 4.69% for infantry, cavalry and horse transport equipment, and 2.34% for all other types of equipment.

Half of infantry, cavalry, and horse transport equipment lost by units in supplied locations is sent to the replacement pool. All non-infantry, non-cavalry, non-horse transport equipment lost by units in supplied locations is sent to the replacement pool. All other pestilence losses are permanent.

This value should rarely be set above 5%, and in most cases should be lower. The default is 0%. This value may be set from the OOB editor Edit > Modify Current Force menu, or by use of the Force Pestilence (Pestilence 1, or Pestilence 2) event effects.

[briantopp]

The current build of this thing. New:

- "GD withdraws" news event fire turn is corrected to correspond to when the unit really withdraws.
- 8th panzer VP penalty reset to be removed March 1942 to correspond to actual historical arrival.
- Pestillence set to zero at end of winter 1942 (I misunderstood how this effect works -- this might create a game balance issue).
- A rebuild of the way this scenario handles the mark II panzer units for 8-panzer so that they don't arrive if the division does not enter through its theatre event. This implements a tricky event sequence suggested by sPzAbt653 above.
- The first six months of axis tank reinforcements follow the historical numbers set out by bigduke66 above through a set of immediately disbanded replacements units, putting the appropriate tanks into the replacement pool.

Coming along...

[briantopp]

I've been experimenting with various event options during this process, and the result is a bit of a hodge-podge in the events (since some worked, and some didn't and were then turned off or over-written by new experiments). If you feel like digging into the events here is an inventory of currently active ones:
 
Event 1+: Standard set-up events
10: weather effects on shock and supply radius
24: Axis pestillence events begin
50: Axis pestillence turned off at end of winter
99: LW Meindt division withdraws
102: Bryansk train
113: storms and fronts
219: Side 1 strategic bias
226: Side 2 strategic bias
232: Axis supply point effects
238: Turn 55 Axis supply surge event 1
254: turn 55 axis supply surge event 2
271: turn 55 axus supply surge event 3
284: Axis rail eroded by 1st soviet winter
292: warning on withdrawal of pz units to be rebuilt
351: 1-cavalerie withdrawn
370: 1942 replacement units disbanded and put into replacement pool
441: Emergency reserve theatre options
459: 239-infanterie disbanded
471: 10-panzer withdrawn
484: GD withdraw for rebuild
486: Mark I pz battalions withdrawn for rebuild
522: Soviet supply bump
601: mud ceasefires
650: tank replacement units disbanded and put into replacement pool

[Oberst_Klink]

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/russia/sovmil-glossary.pdf

I tried the Cyrillic characters, which in the XML editor works AND looks fine... but in the game itself a tad iffy....

[Oberst_Klink]

Any ideas what could cause the error message "Scenario incomplete"? All I did was, edited the OOB, saved it as XML, loaded it in the editor and saved it as SCE. 

[Telumar]

There can be numerous reasons. Just open the scenario in the editor and look under View -> Properties.

[Oberst_Klink]

B*gger... Either I did a bloody mistake or somehow ALL the objective tracks in my localized German/Russian version ALL disappeared! :/

Thanks for the info about how to check the integrity Telumar. Well, another session of copy and paste between two XML editor windows... It's woth it, I think.

[briantopp]

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

B*gger... Either I did a bloody mistake or somehow ALL the objective tracks in my localized German/Russian version ALL disappeared! :/

Thanks for the info about how to check the integrity Telumar. Well, another session of copy and paste between two XML editor windows... It's woth it, I think.

If you can't get it to work but the scenario (events etc) otherwise looks to have ported correctly, please post it and I'll take a look. It might not be a bad thing to take another look at the PO objectives from a blank sheet of paper. At the end of the day there aren't that many formations and the reverse-funnel nature of this battle somewhat simplifies the PO programming (compared, for example, to the Olympic-level complexity and work going into "D21").

[Oberst_Klink]

I think I made a c/p mistake, anyway. I can post the blank event one. Here's a snapshot of the Soviet OOB. Used the transliteration as good as I could. Maybe not everybody's cup'a tea, but adds some flavour.