Gensui jdsrae (J) vs SolInvictus (A). IJ War Council room

[ITAKLinus]

Hi Obvert,

Since it looks like you have a strong preference for the A6M5 over the A6M5c (and I agree), can I ask you why you simply don't skip everything and go for A6M8 instead?

Range is crappy but I honestly don't have many fights at 8 hex with no strike back from the US Armada. I find that the additional few months you wait for it in '42 are quite doable through good positioning and co (something it should be done in any case). Also considering that I am quite passionate for Judy-IV and their nice 800kg bomb, preferring it to the 500Kg.



Please note that I generally play with an HR over which I have a sort of fetish, which is "max 500 embarked a/c per hex", so it probably changes a lot.



Also, I add to the discussion that in terms of sheer CVs and CVLs numbers, the Jap can be in numeric advantage in terms of embarked a/c well into 1944. Presence of many allied CVEs and relative quality of the equipment is another story, though.



Finally, I think the whole problem under discussion is whether a strategy focused on sinking enemy CVs and grabbing points to achieve a 4:1 at 01.01.1943 or 3:1 at 01.01.1944 is feasible. If it is, and I do not think so for reasons exposed above in the topic, extreme research patterns and throwing supplies away is somehow kosher. Also, the doctrine of employment of Jap flattops is quite important under this point of view.
Afterall, who cares about Grace if I am planning to win through 4:1 at 01.01.1943? And who cares about being somehow weaker for few months in '42 if I do not plan an over-aggressive KB use in those months, relying instead of a solid engagement doctrine employing large numbers of LBA?


Just my humble opinion and, maybe, food for thought.




PS. I did again the calculations for KI-94-II. 4 factories in '41 show indeed quite a huge jump in the final outcome. I suspect there is something not real there. Even knowing that R&D factories have diminishing returns, I find strange the result if compared to what I am achieving with much more efforts and a lot of good luck in factories reparations. Is "4 factories with no engine bonus" = "KI-94-II advanced 1 year" real? I hope somebody here has direct experience of that and can share it.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

The fundamental problem with Judy is range, until the D4Y4 and Grace. It gives the allies a real advantage in a CV fight, one that almost always turns out costly for the IJ.

For me, after Oct '42, I really don't want a CV duel as IJ. I want to fight allied CV's with LBA using KB as bait. The KB is very brittle, I've lost so many CV's to a single hit.

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

SBD-5 is 9 hex with 1000lb, SBD-6 is 10 hex. AND their fighters have better range than the A7M … after 10/42 you are fighting with a range DISADVANTAGE, which mean they can hit you and you cannot retaliate. THat is the scenario you enjoy right now until 10/42.

Not sure what you mean here Pax. CV battles are limited regardless of airframe range, right? Allies to 7 hexes and IJ to 8 hexes. So range is not so important as long as planes can cary their biggest bomb to those ranges, and the Judy can with drop tanks.

No, there are always probabilities for longer range IF the aircraft are capable. There was a dev discussion way, way back about this. You can have combat at up to 10 hex, but probabilities are low. DL has a lot to do with it, other factors as well. The discussion was triggered IIRC, but a 9 hex strike ….

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: obvert


I do want a CV duel because anytime the Allies have less is a good time to lengthen their schedule. If they have taken lopsided losses in 42-43 then their challenge is to move forward without a dominant CV advantage into 44, so they have to use different strategies. DEI or SW Pac rather than home runs like the Kuriles. If smart the IJN should have an advantage into 44 with the KB, especially if the Allies expose themselves early while at a severe disadvantage.

My point is that after the allies get the F6F, they have a serious AC quality advantage. A6M vs F6F is a BIG advantage to the allies. SBD is better than early Judy. Allied AA is way better. Allied damage control exists. So after mid-43 the KB is at a serious disadvantage. The allies always want a fight and the IJ needs to be have LBA support to get equal.

Prior to the F6F, or anytime the allied player is foolish enough to show their CV's not in the DS, the IJ needs to take advantage of that.

The A7M can make a difference in early '44 if you can get it in numbers. But, you know what kind of commitment that takes.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

Hi Obvert,

Since it looks like you have a strong preference for the A6M5 over the A6M5c (and I agree), can I ask you why you simply don't skip everything and go for A6M8 instead?

Because the fastest way to get the A6M8 is to get the A6M5 first. This is the point you are missing and it is affecting your RnD strategy badly.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: obvert
Not sure what you mean here Pax. CV battles are limited regardless of airframe range, right? Allies to 7 hexes and IJ to 8 hexes. So range is not so important as long as planes can cary their biggest bomb to those ranges, and the Judy can with drop tanks.

No, there are always probabilities for longer range IF the aircraft are capable. There was a dev discussion way, way back about this. You can have combat at up to 10 hex, but probabilities are low. DL has a lot to do with it, other factors as well. The discussion was triggered IIRC, but a 9 hex strike ….

That would be new to me. And to Alfred too https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... 38&mpage=1

ORIGINAL: Alfred
1. TF Reaction has nothing to do with plane operations. It deals only wih the movement of the ships in the TF itself.

2. Aircraft, whether land based or carrier based, will only launch a naval strike against enemy enemy task forces if the detection level is high enough and they fall within the range set for the aircraft unit.

3. There is a hard coded maximum limit at which carrier aircraft will launch; 7 hexes for the Allies, 8 hexes for Japan.

You should read pages 217-221 of the manual for how spotting works and how it operates.
Alfred

[jdsrae]

So here it is, I locked the IGHQ War Council in a room last night and forced them to decide.

The end result is that 4 of my 8 Sam research factories were moved to the Rufe.
That will delay the Sam arriving by about 2-3 months to late 44, but some engine bonus will bring that forward from there.
The first Rufe factory has already moved to the A6M5c, so I’ll leave that one.
I’ll move 7 to the A6M5 and leave the last one to build Rufes.

Excluding any engine bonus assistance, that should get me the A6M5 in about Aug 42, I’ll leave 4 of 8 factories to go into production.
The A6M5c calc is more complicated now but about Mar 43 and then A6M8 in early 44.
KB will be staying under land based air support by mid-late 43 for the reasons outlined by Pax above.

The extra factories will let me research with 4 and build with the other 4.
The Sam “delay” from when I could have had it is the trade off for getting better fighters earlier.

I looked at other options like Ki-94, but if I am still fighting late war in this game I want to still have a bit of fun with new toys while the B29s are pummelling me.

ITAKLinus, you make some good points and I agree with the concept of coordinating aircraft production with the war strategy, but as this game is my first pbem I’m not going “all in” for an early auto victory. I am going to try and maximise points gathering on land, in the air and at sea.
I agree that it’s easier to get more points on land, and sinking allied ships needs the allies to send them into harms way which might not happen.

[jdsrae]

CONTACT REPORT:
VF-2 and VF-3 fighters were spotted by a long range 7 x Mavis naval attack from Roi-Namur on a USN DD at Wake Island.
Another strike went after a BB but missed. I think it was reported as the Washington.
The Wildcats on CAP were at 20k feet so missed the Mavises who attacked at 6k.
Looks like the allies were trying to setup a Midway style ambush at Wake.
KB and escorts are a few days from leaving Singapore for the Pacific...

[rustysi]

Just a couple of FYI's if you aren't already aware.

Repairs completed on CL Tenryu

This and a sister ship can convert early to CLAA's, of sorts. IIRC the conversion take 6 months.

CM Yaeyama

This ship (and another) can convert to an "E's", while maintaining their ability to lay mines. One vessel carries 60 mine, the other 50. The pool for their mines only increases by 110/month. Hey, works out even.[:D]

Gives these vessels something else to do for the rest of the month. After all Japan always needs escorts.[;)]

[rustysi]

and will want to get the A6M8 as quickly as possible after that. Then the Sam.

May not be possible to do both in a timely fashion, given Japan's other R&D commitments.

So get the A6M5 in late 42 and the A6M5c in mid-43. Then the A6M8 ASAP after that.

You're looking at armour as some kind of magic solution. Durability difference of 5 points, better range, and a jump in speed of 20mph is going to do more for you than armour.

By that logic the A6M8 and A6M5/5b are the same aircraft, so why go for the M8. I like to stop at the 5c and use the extra time to go for the Sam. Figure I can get the Sam by mid-44 with an engine bonus. (Not in my current game because I screwed up the advancement of the engine, Ha-43(?)).

So my intention is to use the 5b and 5c in 'tandem'. 5b mostly as an escort, 5c as a fleet defender.

[jdsrae]

Cheers rusty, yes the CL Tenryu Feb upgrade opens up the CLAA option. I’m going to send them back to Kure for that one as I believe it takes a few months.

Every CM that can will take their E upgrades when they are available. My mine pools are being kept empty anyway and I need more escorts.
There is such a wide variety of CMs. Some like Yaeyama are old CLs while others are more akin to PBs.

[jdsrae]

The reasons I’m going for the M8 now are:
1. it is faster than the 5c, effectively an armoured 5,
2. I will have factories otherwise doing nothing, unless i spend supply to change them
3. It will arrive early 44 to split the time difference to the Sam arriving mid 44.

[rustysi]

Any research on the A6M5 delays the arrival of the A6M5c, and I feel that any plane without armour by 1943 should only be used for training.

I have 8x30 factories on the Sam which will have it arriving in mid 44 about the same time that researched A6M8s would arrive anyway,

Not exactly. This is something I frown upon, but in your no-holds barred game there is a way to get the M8 way early. Here how...

Start by researching the Rufe. Once in operation you can then research the A6M5. But not really. Say what? OK, select the M5. Once done you can now go 'up the ladder' to the M8. So A6M5-> A6M5b->A6M5c->A6M8. All while maintaining the R&D sites at full repair, i.e. 30.

So you get the Rufe in what 4/42(?) and can start researching the M8 then. Add an engine bonus and you get the M8 Feb/Mar-43.

Lots of players (AFB's) won't agree to this if they are aware that its possible. Myself as a JFB, I follow the wire chart for Japanese R&D.

[rustysi]

I do agree that the A6M5 would be better than the A6M2

The A6M2 will get slaughtered by Wildcats with good pilots.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: RADM.Yamaguchi

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

The fundamental problem with Judy is range, until the D4Y4 and Grace. It gives the allies a real advantage in a CV fight, one that almost always turns out costly for the IJ.

For me, after Oct '42, I really don't want a CV duel as IJ. I want to fight allied CV's with LBA using KB as bait. The KB is very brittle, I've lost so many CV's to a single hit.

Hi Pax,
I didn't realize range was so important. I was going to shoot for the D4Y4 to get the 800kg bomb but i see that is 6/8 hexes normal/extended. The D4Y3 only has the 500kg bomb but it's range is 7/8 hexes normal/extended. Is that extra hex worth it?

D4Y4 is what you want. 8 hex with a 500kg bomb is the best you get. D4Y3 is only 7 hex with 500kg.

I thought carrier ops had a hardwired maximum range. Something like 6 for the Allies, and 7 for Japan.

[rustysi]

Rufe's have a lot of nice uses,

Yeah, with PDU on they can be upgraded to LB fighters![:D]

[rustysi]

I am quite new to the forum and probably even quite dumb, therefore I am unable to post more than one image on a single reply.

No, you're not dumb, that's the way the site works.[8|]

[jdsrae]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Any research on the A6M5 delays the arrival of the A6M5c, and I feel that any plane without armour by 1943 should only be used for training.

I have 8x30 factories on the Sam which will have it arriving in mid 44 about the same time that researched A6M8s would arrive anyway,

Not exactly. This is something I frown upon, but in your no-holds barred game there is a way to get the M8 way early. Here how...

Start by researching the Rufe. Once in operation you can then research the A6M5. But not really. Say what? OK, select the M5. Once done you can now go 'up the ladder' to the M8. So A6M5-> A6M5b->A6M5c->A6M8. All while maintaining the R&D sites at full repair, i.e. 30.

So you get the Rufe in what 4/42(?) and can start researching the M8 then. Add an engine bonus and you get the M8 Feb/Mar-43.

Lots of players (AFB's) won't agree to this if they are aware that its possible. Myself as a JFB, I follow the wire chart for Japanese R&D.

You don’t even have to wait for the Rufe to enter production, you can skip along the tree to A6M8 as soon as a factory is repaired to 30.
I know many frown upon this as some sort of devilry, but here’s my justification.

Chief Engineer working on the Zeros presents me with concept plans for the various models and target specs of each.
I tell him I want something fast, armoured and highly manoeuvrable with long range.
He tells me I can’t have all of those attributes in one plane, unless I cancel his A6 program and give him a few years to help bring the A7 forward.

I tell the Chief Engineer I need something better in 1942, what to prioritise and focus extra research effort on.

For this game that means:
- Don’t waste your time on the M3 or 3a.
- Once you have the M5, go for the armoured 5c, don’t waste any effort on the 5b.
- Then because the factories are there, go for the M8 specs.

In a future parallel universe when I play as allies, I’ll be fine if Japan goes straight for the M8 or Sam as that means they’ll be flying the M2 for longer.

[rustysi]

What say the IJGS / peanut gallery to this option of moving 4 x Grace research to give me 8x30 A6M5c research factories?

The Grace is a good plane, but as you say you're pushing for the win by '44 you won't need it. OTOH I don't believe a Japanese points victory is possible after 1/43. So...[:'(]

[rustysi]

I feel that the best way to organize R&D is figuring out your grand strategy and doctrine first of all.

We have a winner. Really no other way to do it.

half-heartedly (is it an actually existing word, btw?)

AFAIK.

[rustysi]

Just another FYI.

If your opponent is aware of it he can go a long way to defeating your attempted points win just by using his many engineers to increase his base sizes. All those points will add up, and you'll need three or four to overcome each one.