THE THREAD

[VSWG]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Yeah, Bobo.  Now you guys got me interested in Jutland.  I guess I can fire up WPO if no turn is in my inbox tonight. [:D]

Good luck finding Jutland in the Pacific. [:'(] [;)]

[VSWG]

Oooh, new page! This deserves a...

Tithe! [&o]

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

It's been a while since I read Mahan but I think he gave due weight to the effects geography had on the fleets-in-being concept. In other words, it would work better for France than it would for Germany. France doesn't have its bottle corked by GB, Germany does.

Yeah, and that’s what has me scratching my head over the ‘fleet in being’ thing. To work, the ‘fleet in being’ has to ‘be’ somewhere. Fleets have to ‘do’ something or represent a credible threat to some national interest. They can’t just exist; fact without function does not write large in the pages of glory.

Been following Nik’s Austrian thoughts; very interesting. Don’t think I’ve seen anyone really applying this stuff to the Adriatic before. Woof!

[bobogoboom]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

bombardments don't do much in the end but annoy. Its always easier of course to employ the smaller more expendible units in limited ops but they also end up doing little most of the time. They should have sought an engagement of some kind but of course that great bugaboo of BB's got in the way.....Capital ships built to win battles and turn tides of war, but in the end too valuable to risk. Had Souchon linked up, that might have opened some poss', but he had little faith that the AH navy would do anything of worth (and he was right). Another option would be to try to link up with the Turks in the Dardenelles but that was politically unfeasible....that would have left the AH coastline "open" though i'm not sure what the Italians would have done, they had their hands full as it was and amphibious ops were still in their infancy.

1914 med
2 austrian dreadnoughts completed with another training up(was completed but i do not believe the crew was trained up enough for it to see battle in the opening month).
3 semi dreadnoughts(still useful ships at this stage)
6 pre dreadnought(useless by this point)
3 armored cruisers( again usless)
4 light cruisers
25 destoryers.
german med navy
1BC
1LC
british
3 bc
4 protected cruisers(newer ships but would have been outclassed by the dreadnoughts and semi dreds)
french navy
4 Dreadnoughts
6 semi dreadnoughts
15 pre dreadnoughts.
22 armored cruisers
83 destoryers

pulling this data from www.naval-history.net

but from the reading i've done the french only had one or dreads in the med. if the austrians would of attacked the british as they chased the german bcs or if the austirans and germans had gone after the french in the early in the war they would of actualy had a chance of causing serious damage to the french and british in the med. that was the part i never understood if the central powers had forced the british to expend some of their naval might to worry about the austrians in the opening months of the war the could have actually made it to where the germans would of had a chance in the north sea to actualy do something.

[bobogoboom]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

It's been a while since I read Mahan but I think he gave due weight to the effects geography had on the fleets-in-being concept. In other words, it would work better for France than it would for Germany. France doesn't have its bottle corked by GB, Germany does.

Yeah, and that’s what has me scratching my head over the ‘fleet in being’ thing. To work, the ‘fleet in being’ has to ‘be’ somewhere. Fleets have to ‘do’ something or represent a credible threat to some national interest. They can’t just exist; fact without function does not write large in the pages of glory.

Been following Nik’s Austrian thoughts; very interesting. Don’t think I’ve seen anyone really applying this stuff to the Adriatic before. Woof!

i found the war in the med and adriatic to be far more interesting than the war in the north sea.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: bobogoboom


but from the reading i've done the french only had one or dreads in the med. if the austrians would of attacked the british as they chased the german bcs or if the austirans and germans had gone after the french in the early in the war they would of actualy had a chance of causing serious damage to the french and british in the med. that was the part i never understood if the central powers had forced the british to expend some of their naval might to worry about the austrians in the opening months of the war the could have actually made it to where the germans would of had a chance in the north sea to actualy do something.

The French were terrified at the prospect of the Goeben getting admidst their all important convoys ferrying troops from NA to France and employed their major assets in fear of such. (While the UK BC squadron attempted to shadow and bottle her up) The Problem the Austrians had with such an idea was the same however....even though at the time Italy was still neutral or on the cusp of declaring neutrality, they still always kept one eye on them since they were a traditional enemy. As such ideas that would take the AH fleet, esp the heavies out of the Adriatic were akin to cutting wrists. It would both leave their coastline "open" + they might lose their precious heavies which would be a political disaster. In the end though, he who risks nothing gains nothing.

The Italians had a similar fear to be fair, only their fear was focused on the French and British bombarding their long exposed coastline. In the end though, even had Italy sided with the CP's, I doubt there would have been much bombarding. As I mentioned, it makes for great press but usually achieves little.

The Germans came up with some clever if straightforward schemes to take on a managable portion of the Grand Fleet....only problem was that the UK was reading their mail but such an occurance almost happened early on prior to Jutland (not Dogger Bank)

[thegreatwent]

i found the war in the med and adriatic to be far more interesting than the war in the north sea.

That would probably be because things happened. My votes go to the Baltic or Med for WWI naval action. Although I must admit that Coronel and the Falklands were decisive. Even if they were one sided.

[niceguy2005]

Just passing through tithe.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

i found the war in the med and adriatic to be far more interesting than the war in the north sea.

That would probably be because things happened. My votes go to the Baltic or Med for WWI naval action. Although I must admit that Coronel and the Falklands were decisive. Even if they were one sided.

and Fauklands was a great example of a Navy willing to take a chance in order to beat down a threat. There was not a little bit of hemhawing at the thought of dispersing the BC fleet when most eyes were focused on the North Sea and counting noses but those who risk nothing....win nothing in the end.

[bobogoboom]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: bobogoboom


but from the reading i've done the french only had one or dreads in the med. if the austrians would of attacked the british as they chased the german bcs or if the austirans and germans had gone after the french in the early in the war they would of actualy had a chance of causing serious damage to the french and british in the med. that was the part i never understood if the central powers had forced the british to expend some of their naval might to worry about the austrians in the opening months of the war the could have actually made it to where the germans would of had a chance in the north sea to actualy do something.

The French were terrified at the prospect of the Goeben getting admidst their all important convoys ferrying troops from NA to France and employed their major assets in fear of such. (While the UK BC squadron attempted to shadow and bottle her up) The Problem the Austrians had with such an idea was the same however....even though at the time Italy was still neutral or on the cusp of declaring neutrality, they still always kept one eye on them since they were a traditional enemy. As such ideas that would take the AH fleet, esp the heavies out of the Adriatic were akin to cutting wrists. It would both leave their coastline "open" + they might lose their precious heavies which would be a political disaster. In the end though, he who risks nothing gains nothing.

The Italians had a similar fear to be fair, only their fear was focused on the French and British bombarding their long exposed coastline. In the end though, even had Italy sided with the CP's, I doubt there would have been much bombarding. As I mentioned, it makes for great press but usually achieves little.

The Germans came up with some clever if straightforward schemes to take on a managable portion of the Grand Fleet....only problem was that the UK was reading their mail but such an occurance almost happened early on prior to Jutland (not Dogger Bank)

yes but to me this was the only way the cp could have won the war at see cause the brit and french enought of a scare in the med to force the brits to send a sizeable fleet to the med. thus evening out the north sea so the germans had a chance against the grand fleet. once this opertunity was lost the war at sea for them was doomed.

even though in their defence the cp didn't have to win the war at sea to win the war.

[bobogoboom]

the austrians almost knocked the italians out of the war once with offensive and were only saved by a russian offensive that they threw together and the austrians and germans almost knocked the italians out a second time in 1917 or 18. and the germans did eventualy knock the russians out. after the initial offensive the germans and austrians should have focused on knocking the lesser allies out of the war. but land combat is a whole nother day.[:D]

[Nikademus]

True. I also think they could have done some damage to the Dardenelles operation. Even once the Italians joined the war, a sharp clash might have gained them at least a moral victory (admitedly in that case the land war dominated) Generally speaking as time went by, chances become more and more remote till it was too late....such as with the HSF after the US joined the war and sent over an entire battlesquadron to backup the Grand Fleet. Eventually the disperity in #'s was such that the British could contemplate sending some of their older Dreadnoughts to the Med to bolster the Italo-French fleet butressing the Orlando barrage.

[thegreatwent]

and Fauklands was a great example of a Navy willing to take a chance in order to beat down a threat. There was not a little bit of hemhawing at the thought of dispersing the BC fleet when most eyes were focused on the North Sea and counting noses but those who risk nothing....win nothing in the end.

I agree, Jellicoe must be the most weak kneed Admiral in recent memory. His fears created menaces everywhere and cost English sailors their lives at Coronel and the Dardanelles. By not wanting any modern ships dispatched from his fleet he essentially "risked nothing".

P.S. I sympathize with your loss and can add no comfort other than to urge you to remember the good times.

[thegreatwent]

Wow, a barrage of posts. Bobo has touched a nerve[:)].

[Nikademus]

IIRC, Fischer wasn't too happy about it either, nor Beatty. I wouldn't consider Jellicoe "weak-kneed". He simply wasn't all fire and guts like the flashy and aggressive Beatty (aggressive to the point of recklessness i might add) He understood the strengths and weaknesses of the two major antagonists all too well and also was well aware that numbers were very important. One must remember that in the early days the GF edge in numbers was at it's lowest, exaserbated by the loss of Audacious to a mine. Jellicoe's lack of "flashiness" and refusal to sensationalize his viewpoint in postwar memiors tends to garner him alot of sh*t. He didn't care.....He was as Churchill said, the only man in Britian who could lose the war in a single day. An exageration of course, but a major sea defeat for Britian would have caused major problems. It was a burden not many could have borne. I akin Jellicoe as a WWI version of Spruance....conservative and careful with his eye on the big picture. Beatty, i akin to Halsey...fire and guts and determined to win a big battle. Both ended up losing lives in the process.

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

The Germans came up with some clever if straightforward schemes to take on a managable portion of the Grand Fleet....only problem was that the UK was reading their mail but such an occurance almost happened early on prior to Jutland (not Dogger Bank)

The fact that the Grand Fleet had to sail farther than the Germans to meet at Jutland should have at least made someone in the High Seas Fleet go 'Hmmm....'. I don't remember them taking any action or suspecting that their code had been broken.

[Nikademus]

well these are the same guys who insisted that Enigma was safe......SAFE i tell you. [:D]

IIRC, they did attempt to place a Uboat picket near Scapa to warn and attack the GF should it emerge.

[thegreatwent]

I acknowledge your points. But Jellicoe's fears of losing the war caused him to fixate on concerns about phantom minefields and submarine ambushes. Hindsight is 20/20 so it easy to give him sh*t, yet I can't help feel that a little more aggressiveness would have paid huge dividends.

[anarchyintheuk]

What Nik said. Jellicoe had no reason to risk anything. After their second battle turn the Germans were running home, where they would be stuck at Wilhelmshaven in very much the same circumstance as before (except for goading the Grand Fleet to be more safety conscious and making Beatty's force actually practice gunnery once in a while).

IMO I thought Jellicoe was actually too aggressive in going after the HSF at night. All in all, he was poorly served by Beatty and Room 40 during the battle and the night pursuit that followed.

[Nikademus]

And the Italians unleashed 12 offensives of the Isonzo. A messy bloody affair it was. The AH army did better here mostly on defense. Their offensives against Serbia and Russia under Conrad were disasterous and the Germans quickly realized they would have to prop their "Ally" up to keep them in the war.