What is your favorite WWII plane?

[sven]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior
Well I asked a simple question cause you answered something outright silly (Who ended uop behind the iron curtain?) and thats all I get.

Well Big Bear I am not Rune but he and I have discussed the roving punchline that is/was Austria-Hungary enough to somewhat answer that question if not in his stead than at least as a supporting voice.

Austria-Hungary was doomed to always be the special-ed case of greater EUtopian powers as it was NEVER truly unified and was far too wrapped up in petty squabbling over ethnicity/religious issues. It is hard to be able to run a total war when the guys on the next base are as likely to be mulling over why the reciprocal power of the Dual Monarchy is a good target as why the new "sworn enemy" is. Sure when nationalism was a new fad that the long-haired kids liked to engage in when they took the carriage down the road to hear Chopin you could get away with "dual crowns", but when the chips were down the moment the Hapsburgs caved to the Hungarians one likely suspected it was a matter of time, not "if".

This looks flowery:

ORIGINAL: Article 19 All races of the empire have equal rights, and every race has an inviolable right to the preservation and use of its own nationality and language. The equality of all customary languages ("landesübliche Sprache") in school, office and public life, is recognized by the state. In those territories in which several races dwell, the public and educational institutions are to be so arranged that, without applying compulsion to learn a second country language ("Landessprache"), each of the races receives the necessary means of education in its own language.

But when the implementation was such that EVERYONE honestly felt their cultures should "lead the glory" rather than being implemented in such a way that true pan-ethnic nationalism took hold you had the festering of a system taking the worst of Jim Crow without the internal correcting mechanism a true representative democracy had built in. Now maybe one could argue that given another 25 years of relative calm Hungary would have shown more willingness to share power with their subject minorities since they took baby steps that way even as early as 1868 mirroring to some extent their own accommodation with Austria in '67. *Maybe* Then again when even as late as 1907 Hungary engaged in book burnings over trying to force the Slovaks to teach/do bussiness only in Hungarian I am hesitant to think that even sans Gavrillo's tantrum "it all would have been ok by 1939".

but hey let's return now to our regularly scheduled "US is retarded" programming.....

how did that Hungarian Space or Deep Sea exploration program go?

[hawker]

Hey Ursa,dont play with Rune.
After all,he is a member of great army,army with countless victories and battles[8D]
He was on Balkan,as peace keeper[:D]. Serbs in Bosnia tied "peace keepers" to trees and document all on tape,then spread to world to see great soldiers f*** the trees.
That was the Unprofor[:D]

[Rune Iversen]

ORIGINAL: hawker

That was the Unprofor[:D]

We lit up their old T55s nicely though...



As for having UN (and later NATO) troops on your soil, it is not a fact that is especially endearing towards your status among other nations.... But then again, it must be one of those Balkan "Honour" things.....

[sven]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko



You made many factual mistakes in your post + at least one remark that can be listed as purely racist, but I won't even go there. Talking facts with Steakhouse cockroaches would be exercise in futility.

I have little desire to air my personal laundry with detritus such as yourself. That said my own miniscule additions to the cause of the US forces embody the "we" I speak of. Whether I am Audie Murphy or Joe BagADoughnuts the fact of the matter is I was a cog in the machine of freedom for a time. That is enough for "me".

"We" get things done.....

the EUro "almost-rans" are comical in insisting that every American has to have been the machine Alvin C York was to feel a part of the AEF's effort. My family sent three sons off to the force back then one generation removed from being "germans" on my mom's side alone. That "we" is why the United States is a nation in a sense the EU never will be. "I" means less than "we" over here despite "our" decided lack of as intense a love affair with collectivism.

regards,
sven

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

I forgot you were with the water cleaning troops. Thats not even infantry. They are auxiliaries. [&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o]

Not quite.... [;)]

I see they sent supertrained commandoes, like you, to guard fuel depots. Nema diesela. Shh these offciers. It is a really genuine way to use supertroopers.

You know I think you were a cook or a clerk who spent his TOD in the camp and heard this nema diesela stroy from a REAL soldier. Baron Munchhausen.

[Rune Iversen]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

I see they sent supertrained commandoes, like you, to guard fuel depots. Nema diesela. Shh these offciers. It is a really genuine way to use supertroopers.

You know I think you were a cook or a clerk who spent his TOD in the camp and heard this nema diesela stroy from a REAL soldier. Baron Munchhausen.

Not commando, but my job description did entail operating beyond the FEBA at times. have you guessed it yet [;)]

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

We lit up their old T55s nicely though...

Is this a still from some Danish gay pr0n movie? [:D] Just look at the guy standing right of the tank! [:D][:D]

Rune mate is that you?

[sven]

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

I see they sent supertrained commandoes, like you, to guard fuel depots. Nema diesela. Shh these offciers. It is a really genuine way to use supertroopers.

You know I think you were a cook or a clerk who spent his TOD in the camp and heard this nema diesela stroy from a REAL soldier. Baron Munchhausen.

Not commando, but my job description did entail operating beyond the FEBA at times. have you guessed it yet [;)]

well if by "beyond" you mean far behind and broadening the gap I'd wager your MOS was 1918K, with K as in "Konrad's forces".....

[;)]

[Rune Iversen]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Is this a still from some Danish gay pr0n movie? [:D] Just look at the guy standing right of the tank! [:D][:D]

Rune mate is that you?

The serb were the ones getting reamed though [:'(]

[mdiehl]

Unless your real name is Neil Armstrong, you, my friend, did as much as I did to put a "flag on the moon" and that is - jack sh1t.

Not exactly. Sven, being an American who was alive at the time, can legitimately lay claim to the "we" in "we put a man on the moon" because he was part of the American public that agreed that such a goal was a good one, that supported said goal, and (possibly, depending on his age, and some other intangibles) directly provided money to achieve that goal.

Certainly I don't have a problem with his use of "we" in this context. When Kennedy said "We choose to go to the moon" he wasn't using "we" in the "royal We" sense, nor was he speaking of a committee. He was speaking of, and for, all Americans inclusively.

I agree with you that you, however, can lay no claim to the "we" in that event.

Your line of thinking whereby simply belonging to some large and heterogeneous group of people makes one eligible for anything and everything anyone belonging to that group ever did, while simoultaneously bashing some other individual for anything you might imagine "they" did, is basically communistic - as in: anti-individual - in nature.

Errm, that argument does not work. It might make Sven "nationalistic" but having a shared sense of national identity does not make a person a communist-- else you'd have to argue for example that many classical Romans, Greeks, Dynastic Chinese, and even Joan of Arc were "commies."

Unless you did something *yourself* - as in fought and directly risked your life - against Jihadists and Commies keep your mouth shut.

Well, if that is your point of view why do you even offer opinions about WW2? It is not as though YOU, PERSONALLY, led the way on Omaha beach, or defended the Chemist's Shop in Stalingrad, or flew an ME-262, or....

You made many factual mistakes in your post + at least one remark that can be listed as purely racist

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen
Not commando, but my job description did entail operating beyond the FEBA at times. have you guessed it yet [;)]

Visiting whorehouses on the outskirts of local towns catering to UN personnel, verifying one can survive sex with local 5$ whores without having his cock turn into green goo? [:D]

Oh I crack me up again.

[Monkeys Brain]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen
Not commando, but my job description did entail operating beyond the FEBA at times. have you guessed it yet [;)]

Visiting whorehouses on the outskirts of local towns catering to UN personnel, verifying one can survive sex with local 5$ whores without having his cock turn into green goo? [:D]

Oh I crack me up again.

[Rune Iversen]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Visiting whorehouses on the outskirts of local towns catering to UN personnel, verifying one can survive sex with local 5$ whores without having his cock turn into green goo? [:D]

Oh I crack me up again.

Not allowed due to the Code of Conduct. R&R was to be spent abroad. Pecs in Hungary was a choise location [;)]

Not that there must have been much worth hitting on in Croatia after the Serbs had been trhough....

[hawker]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

I forgot you were with the water cleaning troops. Thats not even infantry. They are auxiliaries. [&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o]

Not quite.... [;)]

I see they sent supertrained commandoes, like you, to guard fuel depots. Nema diesela. Shh these offciers. It is a really genuine way to use supertroopers.

You know I think you were a cook or a clerk who spent his TOD in the camp and heard this nema diesela stroy from a REAL soldier. Baron Munchhausen.

Ursa,they all was clerks[;)].
When they see battle they run away just like little pussy cats[8D].
Europe sent here and to Bosnia bunch of pussies in uniforms(like Rune)
They constantly take beating in Bosnia,and they do nothing in Srebrenica when 7000 people was killed.
All they do in Croatia was fights in pubs,and after that going home without teeths.

[Rune Iversen]

ORIGINAL: hawker

All they do in Croatia was fights in pubs,and after that going home without teeths.

And stopping the local looters [:'(].

Of which there was rather apparently rather a lot. Most Croats would sell their own sister for fuel....

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
Errm, that argument does not work. It might make Sven "nationalistic" but having a shared sense of national identity does not make a person a communist-- else you'd have to argue for example that many classical Romans, Greeks, Dynastic Chinese, and even Joan of Arc were "commies."

Collectivist would be a better term, I used communist because it's always sure to provoke Steakhouse drones into action. However, there is semantically and etymologically very thin line between collectivist and communist.....

And yes, many of historical personages and movements would rightly be classified as communists, if it's not for this funny stigma that this word carries in this age. I once did an interview with RM Stallman, of Free Software/GNU/Linux movement fame, for my magazine. He kept repeating he has nothing to do with communism, despite his ideas being almost 100% communist in nature. (I expected him to be gutsy enough to admit it, however, as many westerners or modern people in general, he was more concerned with the "communist stigma" than with the true nature of his *OWN* ideas. But I digress [:D])

[hawker]

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

ORIGINAL: hawker

All they do in Croatia was fights in pubs,and after that going home without teeths.

And stopping the local looters [:'(].

Of which there was rather apparently rather a lot. Most Croats would sell their own sister for fuel....

Idiot,in which country you was?
You probably mistake something here,but you are moron from steakhouse and your ignorance is justified.

[Rune Iversen]

ORIGINAL: hawker

Idiot,in which country you was?
You probably mistake something here,but you are moron from steakhouse and your ignorance is justified.

[:'(]

[mdiehl]

Collectivist would be a better term,

I can't see how it a useful term however. Pretty much ALL social mammals have a sense of shared group identity that gets operationalized as collective behavior. Consider lions for example. People "group identify" on the basis of common interest, political slant, religion, national identity, race, even gang affiliation. Equating those with "communist" so distorts the real utility of the phrase "collectivism" or "communism" that it seems to lose any value to the term.

I used communist because it's always sure to provoke Steakhouse drones into action.

So you were trolling then. OK. But then, if you identify "steakhouse drones" as a kind of group, identify them collectively as something other than "whatever group to which you belong" and if such labels motivate the form and content of your replies, does that not make you the very sort of "collectivist" (and, I might add, bigot, although I think you might say "racist") that you claim to despise?

However, there is semantically and etymologically very thin line between collectivist and communist.....

I think there's light years of difference. Your claim is like saying "That is a green cat, therefore all cats are green." "Collectivist" does encompass communism within its range, but the reverse is not remotely true.

I expected him to be gutsy enough to admit it, however, as many westerners or modern people in general, he was more concerned with the "communist stigma" than with the true nature of his *OWN* ideas.

I find this sort of reasoning to be quite peculiar. You have a very very distorted notion as to what a "communist" is, and when someone does not agree to your distorted notion you employ terms that seem to accuse the man of cowardice or otherwise lacking in guts. It is a very, errrm, narcissistic way of thinking about others, IMO.

[morvwilson]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Attn Allied Fanbois!



From Moshe Dayans memories about his visit in the Pentagon.

There are a few points you may want to consider.

First, most likely Mosche Dayans was talking to beaurocrats. In all of my years of dealing with beaurocrats from city, county, state of federal levels there is one thing they have in common. They never make mistakes! It is always some-one else's fault!

Second, Vietnam was not lost by the military. That war was lost in the White House and Press.

Third, I once read from a WWII vets book that no country ever wins a war. One side makes one too many mistakes and loses. This tends to fit in well with my own experiences with my first point.

Well I dont know too much about the Pentagon, but I had the impression that mostly soldiers work there. [;)]
As he said Thereupon he noted that the US Military never made any mistakes;. [;)] Last time you tried to argue you called the members of the 8th AF terrorists. So be careful what you reply. [;)] The side which achieves his objectives wins. The other who does not, loses.

What is the name of Saigon now? Thank you.

It is posible to win all battles and still lose a war. See Iraq aka Vietnam II.

I dont question the bravery, the skill and the sacrifice of the US service members who fought in Nam. I even know some. But Saigon is still Ho Chi Minh city now. They did what what their country asked of them, but you cant destroy a spirit with bullets. Check the already quoted Moshe Dayan report about Nam here.

http://www.d-n-i.net/creveld/why_iraq_w ... am_did.htm

Speaking to you as a veteran, trust me the military is full of beaurocrats! If I had to guess I would say that is about 90% of the population of the pentagon. Beaurocrats![8|]

Now, quick history of American involvment in Vietnam.
- Kennedy decides to help South Vietnam and goes to the general staff for what would be needed. They respond that it would require 2 million men and 7 years to pacify the country. Kennedy fires general staff and brings in generals that will tell him what he wants to hear.

- Kennedy assisinated, Johnson takes over. He calls a metting with the general staff to discuss what the plan for victory is in South Vietnam. He finds that there is no plan. Several more years of floundering occure due to a lack of leadership from the white house. Individual bomb loads for aircraft are micromanaged from the office of the secretary for defense (Macnamara). Targets are placed off limits because Russian advisors may be present and are only allowed to be attacked after the advisors have left and the AA installation is up and running.

- Press as always is sympothetic to the communist/socialist cause and sides with the enemy. This causes Johnson to decide not to seek reelection.

- Nixon wins election and starts on a Vietnamization of the war. Placing Vietnamese soldiers in charge of thier own defense. (I work with several vets from the ARVN. One flew heuys). US troops then start pulling out. Democrat controled congress hates Nixon and cuts aid to South Vietnam. That spells the end to South Vietnam and causes the eventual death of millions of civilians when the comunists take over. BTW according to many of the Vietnamese aquaintenaces I have, they still call Saigon, Saigon.

Also, I remember that crack about the 8th Air force in WWII being terrorists. But, is was not me that made it. I think that they were simply waging war.