The OS Mountians aren't special; they just have more photos. They were very, very hard to walk across. Stipulated. Lots of nice pictures of how hard it was. They had good PR agents. But if someone wants to make a deal of this in the game, if they're honest, they also never, ever let tanks or arty or AA units move through jungle except on gray or yellow roads. Never fight off road, never cross the jungle. OK, maybe, just maybe, if they have a combat engineer unit with them in the hex at all times. Not an engineer unit mind you, but realio trulio combat engineers laying corduroy roads. How many miles of corduroy road can a good combat engineer unit lay in a day? Three miles? When it's not monsoon?
I prefer the Japanese come over the OS Mountians. You can see them coming for a long time.
I assume you havent been there[8D].
But the heavy equipment in a jungle has relevance, but when then get into "All jungle is not the same".
We would need rules for another dozen terrain types.
Whatever the JFB does like this, comes back when the AFB is marching through Burma, Indo China, Phillipines etc
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum
Whats the problem with marching a Division across the Owen Stanleys, my only comment is that it has to be in COMBAT status, not MOVE
Communication depends on context. The context of my conversation is that CR feels strongly about crossing the OS Mountains. That the conditions should be as such that the IJ are encouraged to amphib land ... Your particular constraint is combat mode (1/2 speed) and a stacking restriction .. I am sure others have a range of opinions. However, do not confuse my stating of the parameeters for my discussion with a stance of what I think should be .. two very different discussoins entirely .. [;)]
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
The AFB's did do this .. a la Operation Extended Captial. The problem was that Mountbatten's staff was convinced it was impossible until the IJ did it and seiged Imphal .. I do love the pictures of the OS Mountains in a World at War showing the troops making step by step in the mud ...
I am now convinced that trudging through Burma as an AFB is a bad idea .. it is almost gamey because it is so hard to defend -- at least in scenario #1. Move a couple of of US divisions and buy out key Commonwealth forces (if by house rule) and one has the game locked up ...
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
I know this reply is a little late, but subs can sometimes make multiple attacks against a target while submerged even against escorted targets. I know this as a fact having just experienced it in my own game- a dutch sub made 2x2TT attacks on a crippled CVL finally tagging it with the second 2 torps, after a 'Torpedoes miss' message flashed. Also the sub was short 4 torpedoes after the attack. The CVL was escorted by an ASW equipped CL in the Japanese Iron Man Scen, with the beta patches applied.
Just figured I'd throw this out there in case it comes in question again sometime in the future.
2/10/42
NoPac: Idaho, Warspite, Chester and Chicago bombard Umnak Island. Damage inflicted is all "non-combat, engineers and vehicles" in small quantities. I take this as a strong (but not absolute) indication that there is minimal AV ashore. I have an amphibious TF about four days out. Trying to decide whether to chance a winter invasion. Elswhere, Mavis patrols catch sight of all the TFs, including carriers, and more ineffective sorties by Mavis bombers. Far to the west, a USN CL/DD force is nearing the Kuriles with no detection reported. The plan is to try to catch some merchants at Sikhalin Island. The Allies will bombard Umnak again tonight. The carriers, which are just to the south of Akutan, will begin their move to the West Coast tonight. Five enemy subs in and around Akutan.
Reading the Tea Leaves: John's Email Message - "How is that SYS Dam up North? I like to grab my initial bases but then do nothing until the winter is ‘done.’" My Interpretation of What John is Saying and what he is REALLY Saying: "You're nuts to sail around Arctic Waters in winter. Nuts! I wouldn't do such a thing. But my carriers are even now en route to put a stop to your little game." P.S. Sys damage on my carriers after weeks in NoPac? Two with zero, one with one, one with two.
SoPac: Since the KB retired to the north, last seen near the Santa Cruz Islands a week ago, the Allies have resumed supply runs to important outposts. The furthest John has come is Lunga and one of the Fruti Islands. QE is maybe four days away from Los Angeles.
Oz: Shifting around some troops and adjusting prep where necessary. Prep focuses on Melbourne and Sydney, but some troops are moving to the west coast to offer a semblance of protection at Perth and vicinity.
Capetown: The first Americal regiment arrives at Capetown in four days. Very soon I have to choose: "Oz or India?"
India: An enemy sub showed up at Addu a few days ago. Several other subs raided small merchant shipping between Goa and Bombay. A couple of small merchants are running to Port Blair. One actually made it and dropped off some supply, but I don't think this effort will be very successful over the long haul.
India or Oz: Assuming that John has a major Phase II objective (likely, but not a certainty, especially given what I think is some disarray or uncertainty in the enemy high command at the moment), one of these is his likely objective. I'm not sure which yet. Short term, I feel certain he'll come for Port Blair and the Perth region. I won't contest either move with combat ships.
China: MLR remains intact. John is working to find a weakness to exploit. I'm trying to counter.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
The OS Mountians aren't special; they just have more photos. They were very, very hard to walk across. Stipulated. Lots of nice pictures of how hard it was. They had good PR agents. But if someone wants to make a deal of this in the game, if they're honest, they also never, ever let tanks or arty or AA units move through jungle except on gray or yellow roads. Never fight off road, never cross the jungle. OK, maybe, just maybe, if they have a combat engineer unit with them in the hex at all times. Not an engineer unit mind you, but realio trulio combat engineers laying corduroy roads. How many miles of corduroy road can a good combat engineer unit lay in a day? Three miles? When it's not monsoon?
I prefer the Japanese come over the OS Mountians. You can see them coming for a long time.
I assume you havent been there[8D].
No. But I've been in a couple of types of jungle and rainforest, I've been on WWII "invasion islands", and I've climbed mountains. [:)] No question then the OSes are perhaps at the top of the list of the worst operational mountains of the war. The Hump was worse, but they didn't walk across. My point is, though, that if the OSes are called out, several other in-game compromises should be as well. A point I understand you got from the below.
But the heavy equipment in a jungle has relevance, but when then get into "All jungle is not the same".
We would need rules for another dozen terrain types.
True. Mangrove swamp is not rainforest is not old growth teak forest is not island palms/vines on volcanic debris. In addition to jungle the game allows rapid movement across rice paddy/dike geographies in Indo-China, which the USA found out was not conductive to armored operations in any big way.
The AFB's did do this .. a la Operation Extended Captial. The problem was that Mountbatten's staff was convinced it was impossible until the IJ did it and seiged Imphal ..
Yes and no. Extended Capital was very late against an exhausted, undersupplied, cut-off Japanese force. It was conducted on good roads for the most part by large, late-war armored divisions, and it went down roads taking cites with an objective of Rangoon, not across dense jungle as the game allows for tanks. The game represents armor-on-roads very well IMO for the scale. Taking armor and especialy large gun tubes through jungle is too easy in the game. But it's the same for both sides.
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel NoPac: Far to the west, a USN CL/DD force is nearing the Kuriles with no detection reported. The plan is to try to catch some merchants at Sikhalin Island. The Allies will bombard Umnak again tonight.
Bold move! You have to go north of the Kuriles but then the airfields there will not be expanded much yet. Still, you could face lots of seaplanes/flying boats.
What I am wondering is how the DDs will have enough fuel to get back to a safe area to refuel? Are you using the 8000 NM range Bensons? I'd save those for CV escort.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
The CL/DD force departed Pearl Harbor about four days ago, followed by a replenishment TF. But there are other replenishment TFs south of Kodiak. Besides that, I think the ships have enough fuel to make it back to Kodiak without replenishing.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
The CL/DD force departed Pearl Harbor about four days ago, followed by a replenishment TF. But there are other replenishment TFs south of Kodiak. Besides that, I think the ships have enough fuel to make it back to Kodiak without replenishing.
The AFB's did do this .. a la Operation Extended Captial. The problem was that Mountbatten's staff was convinced it was impossible until the IJ did it and seiged Imphal ..
Yes and no. Extended Capital was very late against an exhausted, undersupplied, cut-off Japanese force. It was conducted on good roads for the most part by large, late-war armored divisions, and it went down roads taking cites with an objective of Rangoon, not across dense jungle as the game allows for tanks. The game represents armor-on-roads very well IMO for the scale. Taking armor and especialy large gun tubes through jungle is too easy in the game. But it's the same for both sides.
You bring out an excellent point here along with your PM, in that there is a dyanisim of capabilites from 1942 - 1945. The Brits not only did not have a clue that pentrating the jungle was possible as proved later by teh IJ but did not have the capability to build trails in the jungle until 1944 - 1945. Interesting thought .. but again both sides are constrained.
I guess the game represents for the OS mountains a "Guns of the South" scenario where as some external factor gives both sides histroically impossible attrubutes ... the only thing .. in the Guns of the South only the South gets the AK-47's advantage [:'(]
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
I can only believe that people are aware of the problems in the Owen Stanley's because of real history. I wonder how many other hexes in the WITP map are "realistically impossible to cross, but possible in the game" hexes that we aren't aware of because there was no WW2 history there. The Owen Stanleys sets off alarms in folks, but I'd bet there are many other hexes that are equally impossible to 'support an army' that don't set off alarms, that would, if we were aware of them.
Maybe we get more exposure to the inland here, but the experiences of II/126 Inf on the Kapa-Kapa trail, Kanga Force at Wau-Bululo set the scene. Then the Australians in New Guinea make most of the inland treks while the US Forces played the amphibious hooks. The terrain had much to do with the Australian Army creating a Jungle Div TOE.
Quest for michaelm, You have a full strength Division in (for example) Pt Moresby. Jungle hexes are impassable to this force. But a button enables you to create a light infantry unit which drops heavy weapons (keeps up to 3" Mortar for example), equipment and support and a HQ unit with the rest of the equiment. You get your unit capable of Jungle warfare, but hasnt a lot of puch and is not well supported and if you want your Support you ship or fly it to the Infantry component.
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum
ORIGINAL: JeffK
Quest for michaelm, You have a full strength Division in (for example) Pt Moresby. Jungle hexes are impassable to this force. But a button enables you to create a light infantry unit which drops heavy weapons (keeps up to 3" Mortar for example), equipment and support and a HQ unit with the rest of the equiment. You get your unit capable of Jungle warfare, but hasnt a lot of puch and is not well supported and if you want your Support you ship or fly it to the Infantry component.
JeffK-that's a pretty cool idea. I'd support that. [8D]
I can only believe that people are aware of the problems in the Owen Stanley's because of real history. I wonder how many other hexes in the WITP map are "realistically impossible to cross, but possible in the game" hexes that we aren't aware of because there was no WW2 history there. The Owen Stanleys sets off alarms in folks, but I'd bet there are many other hexes that are equally impossible to 'support an army' that don't set off alarms, that would, if we were aware of them.
I thought the big hoo-ha about the route between PM and Buna was not that it was passable, but that it allowed movement at the rate of a major road!
That is clearly beyond what happens with other jungle terrain and should not be left alone in the next update. Thus the need for house rules to either reduce movement to something approximating normal jungle/rough or both sides make use of the major road tunnel.
If the movement issue is fixed, Jeff K's idea for creating light infantry is a great idea - lots of places it can be used. It is already possible to do this after a fashion by airlifting the unit to another location [large equipment stays behind] or sealifting with too few ships to load the support elements and equipment. In the latter case the fighting troops load up first with light assault equipment. Move this partial unit to a new location and unload, and you have your light infantry. Not sure if the HQ element would be with the fighting element though.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
1. There is no tunnel under the Owen Stanleys. I have no idea where this fantasy that there is such a thing first arose. It did not arise in GreyJoy's game v rader.
2. Movement rates across the Owen Stanleys, ie between Port Moresby and Buna, are exactly the same as anywhere else on the map where the same type of terrain is found. Units do not cross as if they were traversing a major road. Again no idea where this fantasy has come from.
3. If the crossing of the Owen Stanleys were in fact at the rate of a major road, that would be a definite bug to be fixed by michaelm. No other action, such as forcing players to move in combat mode, or restrictions on units able to cross, would be appropriate.
4. Andy Mac has already, from the very beginning of AE's life, had a jungle TOE which Commonwealth units change over to. If someone wants to argue that Andy Mac got it wrong, I'm all ears but I very much doubt that they will be able to successfully prosecute that argument.
5. Is the argument that a non historical, special "light jungle" TOE template required? Putting aside the basic premise that Andy Mac got it wrong, all TOE templates are based on the historical unit structures. I don't see the need, nor the wisdom in the overall context of the game, in introducing a "fantasy" TOE template which is optional at the player's discretion. No other TOE is an optional detour from the preset path.
6. The terrain between Port Moresby and Buna did not preclude the historical movement of some artillery tubes throughout its entire length. If the Japanese could do it, why can't the player?
7. I find it amazing that anyone is comfortable with the idea of forcing their opponent, whether it be the Japanese re Port Moresby or the Allies re Buna, to undertake only a sea borne invasion of those locations. The Own Stanleys were historically crossed in both directions by both sides. It is not a one way thoroughfare. The Japanese came very close to Port Moresby and if there had been no simultaneous Guadalcanal campaign which severely impacted on the limited Japanese logistical capabilities, who is to say they would not have captured Port Moresby overland. The Allies definitely captured Buna with an overland campaign. So where is this justification that either location should only be captured from the sea?
Alfred's points are very good. I have basically played with the same kind of thought process, mainly that the developers thought pretty hard about this and didn't make it any harder to traverse this kind of terrain for a reason. In our current game both Jocke and I have crossed the OS mts. with units that include all kinds of machinery that would be tough to get over the pass in reality. My main point in a previous post was to say that it just works the same way for each side, so it shouldn't be judged as poor etiquette from either side at either point unless you want to make it more slimmed down and say only the kinds of units that did this historically should be allowed to cross. (Regimental sized chunks without mechanized support or big guns from what I know, which is admittedly not enough to say this conclusively).
What could be a great addition across the board in all areas with tough to traverse terrain is to add a damaged device process for units including items over a certain load capacity so that if those units were crossing mountains or rough jungle hexes off-road, tanks and big arty tubes would be disabled or even destroyed. This would fit better with plausibility and force a player to only use the kinds of units in those areas that are best suited to fight in them. Such as mountains guns instead of 155mm arty when in the mountains, regimental sized units instead of mechanized divisions when going off-road in difficult terrain. I'm no historian, but I wonder how many tank brigades drove from India to Burma through the jungle off-road? Likewise there probably were not a lot of Japanese tanks in certain areas of Central China.
Of course the real terrain included roads not on the game map, and the ability to make new roads even, so I guess this was the compromise reached. It's a tough call, but it does seem like some damage or destruction to those difficult to move devices would be a good compromise. That way players could do what they wanted without HRs, but there would be some penalty for doing something like taking an IJA tank division through the Himalayas off of the road system.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
