Pricing Suggestion

[mekjak]

JRyan, I don't think the value for time argument is a good one because it's entirely subjective. For example, I bought Mount & Blade Warband for $7.50 and I've put nearly 1000 hours into it. I have several hundred hours in TF2, which I bought for $10 before it became completely free. Now, I love wargames and I love the games Matrix publishes (got WITE and Command ops - on sale) but I have not spent nearly as much time on those as I have on games like Mount & Blade.

I dabbled in Harpoon back in the day, and Command looks awesome, and there certainly isn't much out there like it. But as a wargamer who likes to play other games, I can't justify paying a premium price when I can pay far less for other titles that I will probably enjoy just as much, if not more. It feels like the grognards around here have a really unfair prejudice against the 'mainstream', while complex grand strategy titles ala Paradox and hardcore simulators have enjoyed tremendous success in marketing exposure and sales in the mainstream market. I really want to see wargames achieve the same because they and their developers deserve it (and it is most definitely possible), but I just don't see that happening any time soon.

[sfbaytf]

After the initial excitement wore off I'm probably going to hold off. I already have Harpoon Admirals Edition and don't really see the need to spend $80+ for something that is still stuck in the 90's. Had this been released in the 90's-especially in the early 90's you would have no doubt seen a huge following and loads of coverage in the gaming mags like Computer Gaming World and PC Gamer. After the initial coverage you would see the next and following editions covering tactics, strategies and other subjects in depth.

The world has changed. The following is smaller and not many hear about titles like this.

If I'm going to spend top dollar, I want more. I want porn.

Some grogs will moan saying it’s not traditional and adds nothing, but I disagree. I like Battlefronts Combat Mission because it has porn-lots of it. The graphics (porn) isn't there just for the sake of porn either. It conveys a message and sense of war. You see the results of your commands and actions and get a feel for your pixel troops, tanks and other implements of war. You pound buildings into rubble, turn tanks into smoking heaps of metal, see the tracers bounce off of walls and tanks and watch men die and surrender. If it sounds demented and slightly psycho, well it probably is, but it’s entertaining as hell as well as informative.

If nothing else you get a feel of "I'm sure as hell glad I didn't have to endure that meat grinder, now let’s go kill some more Germans"

Beneath the porn there is a good hard core simulation. Perfect? No, but certainly worth the big bucks I paid to play.

I'm sure there are many who really enjoy Command Modern War and can't knock that. The database is huge and the complexity is enormous. But honestly I just don't get the same sense of feeling without something graphical to convey the fears of a cruise missile streaking along at wave top level towards a ship of the feeling of there were hundreds of sailors in that smoking hull. Feels like a sterile version of war. Nothing wrong with it, but for the sort of money being asked, I want a little more. I want some porn.

It’s like a baseball game. Some are into stats and that’s their focus I suspect if you're in this crowd the data driven game is for you and the graphics can be minimal.

Me I go to a game to see a game-hits, home runs, defensive plays, arguments and if there's a brawl that’s a bonus. With the prices being asked I want more than just delving into data and stats.

In this day of cheap computing power and powerful graphics I want the best of both worlds if I'm going to fork out the big bucks.

For now I'm content to sit back and wait and go back to killing Germans, Italians, Americans, Brits, Poles and Canadians.

[JRyan]

ORIGINAL: mekjak

JRyan, I don't think the value for time argument is a good one because it's entirely subjective. For example, I bought Mount & Blade Warband for $7.50 and I've put nearly 1000 hours into it. I have several hundred hours in TF2, which I bought for $10 before it became completely free. Now, I love wargames and I love the games Matrix publishes (got WITE and Command ops - on sale) but I have not spent nearly as much time on those as I have on games like Mount & Blade.

Understood but the fact remains that many that buy this will be playing it for years. That can not be said about most games/sims. Most of us that have played Harpoon/FC and have bought this are stunned. I know that I am and yes I am biased as this is the type of sim I love to play most. This is well worth the money IF you like the genre. With all the complaints about price, I thought I would put it into perspective, that is all. I simply look at it as I wanted this sim so bad and now I have it and it beats my expectations.

[wodin]

The graphics aren't any issue for me..my imagination is better than any on screen graphic anyway, plus at this scale it doesn't really work.

[Pii]

ORIGINAL: JRyan

I quit reading on page 9,

First is it expensive? Oh yes for sure it is. That being said you must ask what do you get for your $$$? This is where I think the argument is moot. I know some might not have that kind of money but if they like this particular genre, they will find a way.

I bought the boxed version yes. Why because this is the type of game I live for since I first bought Harpoon Classic. I bet I have not spent very much over the years on other games but those I did would not even garner 1/100th of the man-hours spent pooning. Now I expect to spend at least 1000 hours more.

My wife had been hounding me to get a new computer for over 3 years now and I said not until the Red Pill. Well we have it now and I wanted it so bad that I would have paid $150 because I will get my $$ worth from it. The only thing that would compare is maybe Black Ops 2, but here is the caveat to that. I only play the zombies part. The group I play with is actually pretty darn good. Now that we have finished the latest map-pack it is done. How much will I play it now? Maybe a little but Command will obviously take more.

Really I can not believe some of the comments here about the price being too much. It reminds me of the Harpoon 3 for Windows and just how many would buy it. Well it went well and the Classic line also were upgraded. Yes I bought them all. I still shake on the Nuclear and Multiplayer options.

What is a fair price? Well let's do quick comparison shall we?

Wal-Mart - (2) new xbox releases $59 * 2 = $118 Average playing time for each - at best 60 hours each. $1 an hour for your entertainment.

Command - (1) $100 - average playing time , well I would bet for a good portion of the community that buys it, around 500 hours and that will increase as the community starts churning out Quality scenarios. That is $.20 cents an hour.

I wonder how many hours I played Fleet Command? It just never really took off even with the after-community support.


For those of you reading this and wondering.....did you want the Red Pill? What would have have given to have played it? These guys built it and did it right. They will do just fine as will Matrix.

Congratulation you are the very niche market player Matrix is targeting. Too bad because if they tried to target other segments you might not have had to pay as much.

I'm a casual war gamers and generally buy them because they look cool but can never figure them out and set them aside never to play again. I did however love the Harpoon series back in the days and bought all of them. Hey they were even mass marketed back then! Something Matrix claims isn't good for them hmmmm

When I saw Command I was fairly excited to see a new Harpoon like game coming out and even though I probably won't play it anywhere near the level of a die hard fan I would still like to have it and "tinker" with it from time to time. Who knows I may have even become a die hard fan of Command ...IF it wasn't so rough on the wallet , especially for someone that isn't a die hard war gamers. But Matrix isn't concerned about people like me so you get to pay more.

Have fun with Command it does look excellent but due to the price I, and many others, are off looking for something else now.

[sfbaytf]

Disagree. Fleet Command did so and that was years ago when people still watched standard definition TV and computers and graphic cards were infinitely less powerful and far more expensive than today.

Scale means nothing. You just have to make the effort. They didn't bother trying.

ORIGINAL: wodin

The graphics aren't any issue for me..my imagination is better than any on screen graphic anyway, plus at this scale it doesn't really work.

[histgamer]

Pii you're making the very big assumption that by lowering the price to something you'd be willing to pay they'd make more money. None of us are able to say that definitively, sure they'd have you're money and probably mine but the question is would the increase in sales offset the losses on the already purchased copies. You nor I cannot be certain that is the case.

[Pii]

ORIGINAL: Rob322

ORIGINAL: JRyan

I quit reading on page 9,

First is it expensive? Oh yes for sure it is. That being said you must ask what do you get for your $$$? This is where I think the argument is moot. I know some might not have that kind of money but if they like this particular genre, they will find a way.

I bought the boxed version yes. Why because this is the type of game I live for since I first bought Harpoon Classic. I bet I have not spent very much over the years on other games but those I did would not even garner 1/100th of the man-hours spent pooning. Now I expect to spend at least 1000 hours more.

My wife had been hounding me to get a new computer for over 3 years now and I said not until the Red Pill. Well we have it now and I wanted it so bad that I would have paid $150 because I will get my $$ worth from it. The only thing that would compare is maybe Black Ops 2, but here is the caveat to that. I only play the zombies part. The group I play with is actually pretty darn good. Now that we have finished the latest map-pack it is done. How much will I play it now? Maybe a little but Command will obviously take more.

Really I can not believe some of the comments here about the price being too much. It reminds me of the Harpoon 3 for Windows and just how many would buy it. Well it went well and the Classic line also were upgraded. Yes I bought them all. I still shake on the Nuclear and Multiplayer options.

What is a fair price? Well let's do quick comparison shall we?

Wal-Mart - (2) new xbox releases $59 * 2 = $118 Average playing time for each - at best 60 hours each. $1 an hour for your entertainment.

Command - (1) $100 - average playing time , well I would bet for a good portion of the community that buys it, around 500 hours and that will increase as the community starts churning out Quality scenarios. That is $.20 cents an hour.

I wonder how many hours I played Fleet Command? It just never really took off even with the after-community support.


For those of you reading this and wondering.....did you want the Red Pill? What would have have given to have played it? These guys built it and did it right. They will do just fine as will Matrix.

It beats giving EA any more money. I wouldn't want to pay $20 for an EA game even if it looks great because I have many poor experiences with their support. Matrix however has managed to support the products I've purchased. Beyond Matrix I think the guys who started this are genuine and want to make a great game. If I play this game 1/2 as much as I've played WITP AE in the last 4 years it'll easily have paid for itself.

I think the whole point of the thread is that Matrix is pricing their games for people like you and only for people like you. Like I said earlier they seem perfectly happy keeping their niche market a niche market.

PS I just bought about 5 AAA EA games for $1.00 (Humble Bundle) Can't complain about that even if they don't patch them.

And btw they sold a few million of these bundles at an average of about 6.00 (not all went to EA though). I'll wager this bundle made them more than Command will ever make.

[JRyan]

ORIGINAL: Pii

When I saw Command I was fairly excited to see a new Harpoon like game coming out and even though I probably won't play it anywhere near the level of a die hard fan I would still like to have it and "tinker" with it from time to time. Who knows I may have even become a die hard fan of Command ...IF it wasn't so rough on the wallet , especially for someone that isn't a die hard war gamers. But Matrix isn't concerned about people like me so you get to pay more.

Have fun with Command it does look excellent but due to the price I, and many others, are off looking for something else now.

Well maybe so but bang for the buck it is very well worth it. the best part? This is the beginning....very shortly the scens will start appearing..

What most people seem to forget it is the folks who developed this game are not going to get rich. They did it for a passion and it is only fair that they get something back and funds to continue the development of the sim. I would bet they might end up with $3hr and that is being very generous. The community wanted this so they started a very long time ago...and now they release it and people are griping because it is not subsidized. Will Electronic Arts make you the game you want? And you will give them $60 and yet do not stand in line griping about the price. If it is too much, don't buy it. I however would be willing to bet if folks are posting here, that means the genre interests them. Time will tell but when it gets down to it, this SIM will sell itself even at these prices.

[JRyan]

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf
Scale means nothing. You just have to make the effort. They didn't bother trying.

They didnt need to, it is not needed in this case. If you want eye candy, you can get fleet command for about $5 now that has been updated for all windows and get the online communities upgrade (NWS) which is a fine job and have away at it. Total cost = $5.

Meanwhile, for accuracy and expantion and for overall complexity and realism, I will be playing this.

Heck the DB is worth $25 all by itself. You don't have to have all the books laid out to get the information. Its right there.

[Rob322]

ORIGINAL: Pii

ORIGINAL: Rob322

ORIGINAL: JRyan

I quit reading on page 9,

First is it expensive? Oh yes for sure it is. That being said you must ask what do you get for your $$$? This is where I think the argument is moot. I know some might not have that kind of money but if they like this particular genre, they will find a way.

I bought the boxed version yes. Why because this is the type of game I live for since I first bought Harpoon Classic. I bet I have not spent very much over the years on other games but those I did would not even garner 1/100th of the man-hours spent pooning. Now I expect to spend at least 1000 hours more.

My wife had been hounding me to get a new computer for over 3 years now and I said not until the Red Pill. Well we have it now and I wanted it so bad that I would have paid $150 because I will get my $$ worth from it. The only thing that would compare is maybe Black Ops 2, but here is the caveat to that. I only play the zombies part. The group I play with is actually pretty darn good. Now that we have finished the latest map-pack it is done. How much will I play it now? Maybe a little but Command will obviously take more.

Really I can not believe some of the comments here about the price being too much. It reminds me of the Harpoon 3 for Windows and just how many would buy it. Well it went well and the Classic line also were upgraded. Yes I bought them all. I still shake on the Nuclear and Multiplayer options.

What is a fair price? Well let's do quick comparison shall we?

Wal-Mart - (2) new xbox releases $59 * 2 = $118 Average playing time for each - at best 60 hours each. $1 an hour for your entertainment.

Command - (1) $100 - average playing time , well I would bet for a good portion of the community that buys it, around 500 hours and that will increase as the community starts churning out Quality scenarios. That is $.20 cents an hour.

I wonder how many hours I played Fleet Command? It just never really took off even with the after-community support.


For those of you reading this and wondering.....did you want the Red Pill? What would have have given to have played it? These guys built it and did it right. They will do just fine as will Matrix.

It beats giving EA any more money. I wouldn't want to pay $20 for an EA game even if it looks great because I have many poor experiences with their support. Matrix however has managed to support the products I've purchased. Beyond Matrix I think the guys who started this are genuine and want to make a great game. If I play this game 1/2 as much as I've played WITP AE in the last 4 years it'll easily have paid for itself.

I think the whole point of the thread is that Matrix is pricing their games for people like you and only for people like you. Like I said earlier they seem perfectly happy keeping their niche market a niche market.

PS I just bought about 5 AAA EA games for $1.00 (Humble Bundle) Can't complain about that even if they don't patch them.

And btw they sold a few million of these bundles at an average of about 6.00 (not all went to EA though). I'll wager this bundle made them more than Command will ever make.

A person like me? Whatever, dude. your generalization is pointless. I'm just a guy who likes war games. The price is the price. I don't know if this is a good money making decision or not for them. I don't know how many they need to sell to make a profit or what their true appeal would be on a mass market and i doubt anyone else on here knows either. Thats the publishers job to figure that out, not yours or mine. Our job is to figure out is whether what we're getting is worth the cost. The game looks good to me and the price is within my budget so I'm buying it. Each person has to make their own call.

[mekjak]

Erik and others from Matrix/Slitherine have said that their data shows that their pricing strategy is the best for them, but since they don't disclose numbers we just have to take their word for it. They are at least taking minor steps with the weekly sales.

Personally, I don't think wargames are that niche that they won't benefit from something similar to the business model/pricing revolution that has taken place in the rest of the games industry. I mean, equally niche sims regularly appear on the Steam top seller list, and given Steam's user base of millions that means tons of business. Matrix/Slitherine also have plenty of noob-friendly games like Battle Academy, the Commander grand strategy series, etc. that would definitely have a wide appeal to that kind of audience.

When Valve first started experimenting with sales, one of their games that had its price slashed by 75% saw a revenue spike of something like 400% - that's revenue, not # of units sold. Pretty much the entire PC games industry has followed suit, and even console publishers are doing similar things. It's clear that Matrix/Slitherine feel strongly about staying the course, more or less, but I think the rest of the games industry have moved far ahead.

[Rob322]

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

Disagree. Fleet Command did so and that was years ago when people still watched standard definition TV and computers and graphic cards were infinitely less powerful and far more expensive than today.

Scale means nothing. You just have to make the effort. They didn't bother trying.

ORIGINAL: wodin

The graphics aren't any issue for me..my imagination is better than any on screen graphic anyway, plus at this scale it doesn't really work.

I would assume they didn't bother trying because that wasn't the game they wanted to make. They never represented that they were going to have these features so why be disappointed?

[Pii]

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

Pii you're making the very big assumption that by lowering the price to something you'd be willing to pay they'd make more money. None of us are able to say that definitively, sure they'd have you're money and probably mine but the question is would the increase in sales offset the losses on the already purchased copies. You nor I cannot be certain that is the case.

Nor can we know for sure it wouldn't increase sales enough. I will say I have no doubt if this was on Stream for 49.99 it would sell more in one week than it will ever sell on Matrix. And once the sales die off Steam would have a sale and make more sales (Sales that Matrix will not make due to their hardly ever sales policy) Not to mention Matrix isn't even well known other than to war gamers, heck if I hadn't seen Command mentioned on SimHQ a few months back I never would have even know about Command or Matrix and that can't be good for Command sales at any price.

[sfbaytf]

ORIGINAL: Rob322

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

Disagree. Fleet Command did so and that was years ago when people still watched standard definition TV and computers and graphic cards were infinitely less powerful and far more expensive than today.

Scale means nothing. You just have to make the effort. They didn't bother trying.

ORIGINAL: wodin

The graphics aren't any issue for me..my imagination is better than any on screen graphic anyway, plus at this scale it doesn't really work.

I would assume they didn't bother trying because that wasn't the game they wanted to make. They never represented that they were going to have these features so why be disappointed?

Has nothing to do with being disappointed and whether they intended to make a game one way or another doesn't matter to me. I just took a look saw what I would get for the price and decided it wasn't for me. Up until yesterday I didn't even know it existed.

Like I said I already have Harpoon so I don't see the need to pay $80 for an updated version of something I already have.

[Pii]

Well maybe so but bang for the buck it is very well worth it. the best part? This is the beginning....very shortly the scens will start appearing..

But your "bang for the buck" is different than mine. I have never played any game for 100 hours much less 1000 if I did then 79.00 probably wouldn't even make me blink. The point is that Matrix only cares about your type and thus are most likely losing lots of sales and thus have to charge high prices to make a profit. But hey they have the numbers and have analyzed them (hopefully not incorrectly)and have dismissed us the non-die hard fans of the genre.
Oh well

[Rob322]

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

ORIGINAL: Rob322

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

Disagree. Fleet Command did so and that was years ago when people still watched standard definition TV and computers and graphic cards were infinitely less powerful and far more expensive than today.

Scale means nothing. You just have to make the effort. They didn't bother trying.

I would assume they didn't bother trying because that wasn't the game they wanted to make. They never represented that they were going to have these features so why be disappointed?

Has nothing to do with being disappointed and whether they intended to make a game one way or another doesn't matter to me. I just took a look saw what I would get for the price and decided it wasn't for me. Up until yesterday I didn't even know it existed.

Ahh, I see. I've been following the progress of this for the last year or so over on the warfaresim website

[Tomn]

ORIGINAL: JRyan

ORIGINAL: Pii

When I saw Command I was fairly excited to see a new Harpoon like game coming out and even though I probably won't play it anywhere near the level of a die hard fan I would still like to have it and "tinker" with it from time to time. Who knows I may have even become a die hard fan of Command ...IF it wasn't so rough on the wallet , especially for someone that isn't a die hard war gamers. But Matrix isn't concerned about people like me so you get to pay more.

Have fun with Command it does look excellent but due to the price I, and many others, are off looking for something else now.

Well maybe so but bang for the buck it is very well worth it. the best part? This is the beginning....very shortly the scens will start appearing..

What most people seem to forget it is the folks who developed this game are not going to get rich. They did it for a passion and it is only fair that they get something back and funds to continue the development of the sim. I would bet they might end up with $3hr and that is being very generous. The community wanted this so they started a very long time ago...and now they release it and people are griping because it is not subsidized. Will Electronic Arts make you the game you want? And you will give them $60 and yet do not stand in line griping about the price. If it is too much, don't buy it. I however would be willing to bet if folks are posting here, that means the genre interests them. Time will tell but when it gets down to it, this SIM will sell itself even at these prices.

If you've quit reading by page nine, you may have missed certain new parts of the conversation - namely, that the theory is that reducing the price to something more in line with the wider market would in fact earn Matrix Games - and by extension, the devs - MORE money because this would then tempt significant amounts of newcomers in giving the game a go. While the current pricing may produce a living wage for the devs, it is argued that a lower price would provide them with more than that AND give them a much larger fanbase to boot.

We have, of course, no concrete proof that this would absolutely be so, but it seems quite likely that this is true given that a game about rocket science and a game about freaking truck driving is currently on the Steam top-seller's list - a game about modern naval warfare hardly sounds less obscure than such niches. And more generally speaking, the entire gaming industry is seeing tiny niche games sprout up regularly, in large part due to major distributors like Steam offering them much greater access to potential buyers than was previously possible. The fact is that we are living in a golden age for niche games of all shapes and sizes, strange products that cover almost any aspect of the world you might care to name, no matter how bizarre (did you know they even made a freakin' street sweeper sim? It was terribly made and was in fact terrible, but the fact that they even TRIED to publish it is telling - twenty years ago they'd have been laughed into the street). Nor are all these new niche games simplistic, either, as witness Kerbal Space Program (or Dwarf Fortress, though that one is free). Why then should we easily accept that wargames are completely immune to the same economic laws that have provided such an influx of money and attention to so many other niches?

[Pii]

What most people seem to forget it is the folks who developed this game are not going to get rich. They did it for a passion and it is only fair that they get something back and funds to continue the development of the sim

Oh yes I know that, I asked one of the devs on YouTube a question and he told me it was a "love letter" to the "Groks" that love this type of sim and didn't do it for the money. If that's the case why not just make it free to the Groks?

[Pii]

A person like me? Whatever, dude. your generalization is pointless. I'm just a guy who likes war games. The price is the price. I don't know if this is a good money making decision or not for them. I don't know how many they need to sell to make a profit or what their true appeal would be on a mass market and i doubt anyone else on here knows either. Thats the publishers job to figure that out, not yours or mine. Our job is to figure out is whether what we're getting is worth the cost. The game looks good to me and the price is within my budget so I'm buying it. Each person has to make their own call.

LOL
1. Why does saying "people like you" offend you? my generalization was that you were a war gamers and it looks like I was correct so why all uptight about it?

2. What generation do you think I'm from? Hint I was almost drafted but they ended it two months before my 18th.

3. I said have fun with your "Command" game because I have NO problem if you want to pay that, NONE, ZERO have at it.

4. I really don't know why you are all upset lets kiss and make up! [8|]