THEY WERE EXPENDABLE: Nagumo vs Spruance PBEM

[racndoc]

SITUATION REPORT: 11-12-43


SEAC: BATTLE FOR BANDOU

75,000 Allied troops launch a deliberate attack on 22,000 IJA. At 3:1 odds, the fortifications are reduced to level one and another attack is ordered for tomorrow.

[racndoc]

SITUATION REPORT: 11-13-43


SEAC:

Allies liberate Bandou in a 12:1 attack and force the IJA to retreat towards Songkhia. Meanwhile IJA units manage to cross the river from Bangkok to invest Allied units without having to conduct a shock attack.

[racndoc]

SITUATION REPORT: 11-19-43 SWPAC: INVASION OF WOLEAI...D-DAY MINUS 2


CV and land based aircraft blast Japanese troops on Woleai as the assault ships plod forward from New Guinea.

[racndoc]

SWPAC WARPLANS: WINTER 1943


SWPAC will be conducting an offensive into the Ulithi/Palau island group as we approach the end of 1943. To provide air support for this offensive, SWPAC goes ashore at Woleia tomorrow to secure a forward airbase.

Palau will be used as a staging area for the SWPAC offensive into the PI currently scheduled for summer 1944. Ulithi will provide a forward airbase to cover the CENTPAC advance into the Marianas currently scheduled for spring 1944.

[racndoc]

SITUATION REPORT: 11-21-43


SWPAC: INVASION OF WOLEAI


After 48 hours of naval bombardment by 12 BBs and 15 CAs and 2 weeks of nearly continuous aerial bombardment by 600+ heavy bombers, the Allies storm ashore today with 2 Infantry Divisions, 2 Infantry Brigades and 2 Armored Batallions. Both sides suffer 1000+ casualties in the resulting shock attack and the Japanese retain control of the base. Allied naval losses are heavy in the assault:

[Capt. Harlock]

Both sides suffer 1000+ casualties in the resulting shock attack and the Japanese retain control of the base. Allied naval losses are heavy in the assault:

After that kind of pre-invasion pounding? I'm starting to wonder about game's modeling of coast defences.

[Widell]

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock
After that kind of pre-invasion pounding? I'm starting to wonder about game's modeling of coast defences.

I think the problem is in the modelling of hexes and unit stacking. A hex is a hex is a hex (well, almost at least), and if there´s plenty of troops in the hex, the model won´t care if it´s a piece of rock in the middle of the ocean, or if it´s 60 x 60 km of jungle or grass fields. This also means that the pounding is equal for the piece of rock as well as the jungle hex

Unfortunate but not likely to change(?) with the current game engine. This was discussed in a couple of other threads where the French Frigate Shoals had been turned into somehting close to the De La Guardia Airport and had a large number of B-29 formations based there. There was also a thread where more than 50,000 troops had been based on a barren atoll somewhere . Not only that, but they where being attacked by another 50,000 troops -> More than 100,000 fighting soldier on a coral reef

/Robert

[Belphegor]

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

Both sides suffer 1000+ casualties in the resulting shock attack and the Japanese retain control of the base. Allied naval losses are heavy in the assault:

After that kind of pre-invasion pounding? I'm starting to wonder about game's modeling of coast defences.

The pre-invasion pounding did a lot of damage you aren't seeing there. That kind of shipping damage is nothing to the Allied player at this stage of the war. The results of the pre-pounding is the loss of Woleai in two turns. [:(]

[racndoc]

I know that playing the Japanese at this stage in the war is very difficult and its got to be a bummer to be constantly losing bases and retreating......but I think it would be helpful for the readers to see the relative damage caused by both sides weapons in the bombardment model.

My recon showed that the Japanese had 3 units (17,000 troops) on Woleai. Only one unit was a ground unit...the 1st South Seas Detachment . The other 2 units were probably engineer or base units.

Lets start with the naval bombardment first. The Japanese had maybe 6-12 4" and 5" guns max. The Allies had 12 BBs with 100-105 14", 15" and 16" guns. The Allies had 15 CAs with 125-130 8" guns. On the 1st day of bombardment, it looked like the Allied bombardment TFs were getting some pretty good hits.

Here is how my bombardments looked on the 2nd day which was D-Day:

Naval bombardment of Woleai, at 57,72 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

19 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Allied Ships
CA Australia
CA San Francisco
CA Astoria, Shell hits 1
CA Louisville
CA Northampton
BB Alabama
BB Massachusetts
BB Indiana, Shell hits 5
BB Washington

Japanese ground losses:
6 casualties reported

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 16
Port supply hits 2

Naval bombardment of Woleai, at 57,72

Allied Ships
CL Mauritius
CA Suffolk
CA Salt Lake City
CA Chicago
CA Houston
CA Indianapolis
BC Repulse
BB Warspite
BB Pennsylvania
BB Colorado

Japanese ground losses:
15 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 10
Port hits 1
Port supply hits 1

Naval bombardment of Woleai, at 57,72 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

20 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Allied Ships
CL Newcastle
CL Emerald
CL Java
CA Frobisher
CA Cornwall
CA Devonshire
CA Shropshire, Shell hits 8
BB Resolution
BB Royal Sovereign
BB Revenge
BB Valiant

Japanese ground losses:
124 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 4

So my bombarment TFs killed about 149 troops and 3 guns.

I thought that the Japanese losses were low because there was nothing left but then here was the Japanese coastal defense response:

Coastal Guns at Woleai, 57,72, firing at TF 1292
TF 1292 troops unloading over beach at Woleai, 57,72


614 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Allied Ships
DD Nicholas, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Farenholt
AP Van Cloon
CL Raleigh, Shell hits 2
CL De Ruyter, Shell hits 12
AP Empire Pride
DD Tjerk Hiddes
AP Mount McKinley, Shell hits 1
LCI LCI-331, Shell hits 4
MSW Grebe, Shell hits 8, on fire, heavy damage
LCI LCI-85, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
LST LST-450, Shell hits 9, on fire, heavy damage
LST LST-34
LST LST-30, Shell hits 1
AP Latimer
AP Wanganella, Shell hits 5, on fire
AP Arthur Middleton, Shell hits 4
AP Crescent City
DD Hammann, Shell hits 4, on fire
AP President Fillmore


Allied ground losses:
4039 casualties reported
Guns lost 7

And again:

Coastal Guns at Woleai, 57,72, firing at TF 1292
TF 1292 troops unloading over beach at Woleai, 57,72


283 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Allied Ships
AP Zealandia, Shell hits 1, on fire
AP Dardanus, Shell hits 8, on fire
AP Empire Chivalry
DD Nicholas, Shell hits 2
LST LST-450, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Westralia
AP Wanganella, Shell hits 8, on fire
DD Arunta, Shell hits 1
AP Sumter, Shell hits 7, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
26 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
949 casualties reported
Guns lost 4
Vehicles lost 2

At least this time the 17 6", 40 5" and 150 4" and 3" guns in my assault TF caused 26 Japanese casualties.


Now this all occured after 2 weeks of aerial bombardment by 600+ heavy bombers. I forgot to mention that the last 2 days prior to the invasion there were also 450 CV bombers. So on 10/19/43 and 10/20/43 there were 1000+ plane raids......that is starting to get up there with the fire bombing of Hamburg and Dresden and certainly much more than the carpet bombing that preceded Operation Cobra, Operation Goodwood and the assault on Monte Cassino.


The Allies lost 25+ DDs, MSWs, APs and LSTs when they assaulted 30,000 IJA at Port Moresby in May 1943. I can only imagine what awaits at much more heavily defended islands such as Ulithi, Palau, Guam, Tinian, Saipan, Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

Nevertheless, the Allies WILL assault right into the teeth of the Japanese defenses.

[racndoc]

SITUATION REPORT: 11-22-43


SWPAC: INVASION OF WOLEAI

In another shock attack, 8200 IJA were killed and the Allies took control of the bases on Woleai. A deliberate attack is ordered for tomorrow to mop up.


SEAC:

The Japanese have formed a 50,000 man roadblock at Songkhia. Major air battles rage overhead as both sides fight for air supremacy.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 11/22/43

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Woleai, 57,72, firing at TF 1292
TF 1292 troops unloading over beach at Woleai, 57,72


9 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Allied Ships
LST Empire Battleaxe


Allied ground losses:
35 casualties reported

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Woleai, at 57,72

Allied Ships
CA Australia
CA San Francisco
CA Astoria
CA Louisville
CA Northampton
BB Alabama
BB Massachusetts
BB Indiana
BB Washington

Japanese ground losses:
57 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Runway hits 21
Port hits 2
Port supply hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Woleai, at 57,72

Allied Ships
CL Mauritius
CA Suffolk
CA Salt Lake City
CA Chicago
CA Houston
CA Indianapolis
BC Repulse
BB Warspite
BB Pennsylvania
BB Colorado

Japanese ground losses:
20 casualties reported

Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 10
Port hits 2
Port supply hits 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Woleai, at 57,72

Allied Ships
CL Newcastle
CL Emerald
CL Java
CA Frobisher
CA Cornwall
CA Devonshire
CA Shropshire
BB Resolution
BB Royal Sovereign
BB Revenge
BB Valiant

Japanese ground losses:
10 casualties reported

Runway hits 11
Port supply hits 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Woleai , at 57,72


Allied aircraft
F-5C Lightning x 2


No Allied losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 38th Division, at 24,43

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 8
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 21
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 3
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 5

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 20
Liberator VI x 39
P-40N Warhawk x 36
B-25J Mitchell x 26

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 6 destroyed, 4 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 4 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 3 damaged
Liberator VI: 4 damaged
P-40N Warhawk: 9 destroyed, 3 damaged
B-25J Mitchell: 3 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
158 casualties reported
Guns lost 5


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 46th Division, at 24,43

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 7
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 16
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 3
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 3

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 14
Thunderbolt II x 14
Vengeance I x 48
Beaufighter VIC x 44
Beaufort V-IX x 6
P-40N Warhawk x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 3 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 15 destroyed
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 3 destroyed
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Vengeance I: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged
Beaufighter VIC: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged
P-40N Warhawk: 1 destroyed

Japanese ground losses:
43 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 46th Division, at 24,43

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 4

Allied aircraft
Liberator VI x 24
P-40N Warhawk x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator VI: 2 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
57 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 1st South Seas Det. , at 57,72


Allied aircraft
Liberator VI x 11
P-38J Lightning x 55
PB4Y Liberator x 66
B-24D Liberator x 13
B-24J Liberator x 48


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
228 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 1st South Seas Det. , at 57,72


Allied aircraft
P-38J Lightning x 75
F-5C Lightning x 3
PB4Y Liberator x 61
B-24J Liberator x 62


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
212 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 1st South Seas Det. , at 57,72


Allied aircraft
PB4Y Liberator x 16
B-24D Liberator x 23
B-24J Liberator x 62


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
133 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Woleai , at 57,72


Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 2
FM-2 Wildcat x 4
F6F Hellcat x 74
Hellcat II x 12
F4U-1 Corsair x 6
Barracuda x 6
TBM Avenger x 171
Avenger II x 7


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
5 casualties reported

Port hits 4
Port supply hits 3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Woleai , at 57,72


Allied aircraft
F-5C Lightning x 1


Allied aircraft losses
F-5C Lightning: 1 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kwajalein , at 79,79


Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 43


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
39 casualties reported

Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 2


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Ponape , at 71,79

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
P-38J Lightning x 15
B-25J Mitchell x 98

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-25J Mitchell: 2 destroyed, 15 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
80 casualties reported
Guns lost 4

Airbase hits 10
Airbase supply hits 9
Runway hits 71


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rabaul , at 61,88


Allied aircraft
F6F Hellcat x 5
P-38J Lightning x 24
A-20G Havoc x 51


Allied aircraft losses
A-20G Havoc: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
20 casualties reported

Runway hits 10
Port hits 4
Port fuel hits 1



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Songkhia

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 32735 troops, 313 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 50870 troops, 404 guns, 105 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
99 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Woleai

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 26252 troops, 223 guns, 148 vehicles

Defending force 9739 troops, 2 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied assault odds: 219 to 1 (fort level 1)

Allied forces CAPTURE Woleai base !!!


Japanese ground losses:
8239 casualties reported
Guns lost 5

Allied ground losses:
192 casualties reported
Guns lost 7

[Capt. Harlock]

The pre-invasion pounding did a lot of damage you aren't seeing there. That kind of shipping damage is nothing to the Allied player at this stage of the war. The results of the pre-pounding is the loss of Woleai in two turns.

As Adm. Spruance points out, he used truly massive firepower -- much more than in any historical invasion. There shouldn't have been much of ANYTHING left. (Note that by the time of the invasion of Okinawa, the Japanese decided not even to contest the landings, since their assets would be chewed up by pre-invasion bombardment.) One question: did Spruance's bombardments reduce the fort level?

[AmiralLaurent]

From my recent experience in PH, vs a base heavily damaged by CD guns:

_ bombardment TFs seem to be engaged first in a battle against CD units. Only if the CD are too weak they may bomb the base and hit ships, AC, base forces and so on.

_ if you have 6 BBs and CD defences are moderate or allready well hurt, it is better to send two bombardment TF in the same phase: one will engage the CD guns only will the other will most of the times "get trough" and blast the base.

_ as shown by experiments reported on this forum sometimes ago, LCUs are not really affected by naval bombardments. The problem is that when you land troops in an enemy hex every gun (CD or not) will fire on ships and troops. So you can pound an island for days and no more draw CD gun fire and then land in face of two divisions and receive 2000 shells...

By the way in the Woelai example, AdmSpruance BB probably didn't receive now ammo after the first day of bombarment. IJN BBs have nine "shells" per big gun and will fire 6 on the first bombardment run, and then their firepower will be greatly reduced. I guess Allied BB do the same.

The main bonus of naval (or air bombardment) is to destroy supply and support squads in the attacked base, then LCUs need extra support squads and supplies to fight efficiently.

[Belphegor]

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

The pre-invasion pounding did a lot of damage you aren't seeing there. That kind of shipping damage is nothing to the Allied player at this stage of the war. The results of the pre-pounding is the loss of Woleai in two turns.

As Adm. Spruance points out, he used truly massive firepower -- much more than in any historical invasion. There shouldn't have been much of ANYTHING left. (Note that by the time of the invasion of Okinawa, the Japanese decided not even to contest the landings, since their assets would be chewed up by pre-invasion bombardment.) One question: did Spruance's bombardments reduce the fort level?

It did not reduce the fort level. On the other hand it didn't need to (not saying it should or should not have, just providing info). I have a fort level 9. I had at least an entire Bde on the island. IN the first turn Allied landing shock attack the fort was reduced to level 1 and I lost all units completely except for the Bde which was pretty much completely disrupted and demoralized, and over 1/2 disabled troops of all elements.

[racndoc]

SITUATION REPORT: 11-27-43


SWPAC:

SWPAC bombers start working over the next amphibious assault targets at Palau and Ulithi by taking out the airfields:

Day Air attack on Palau , at 52,67

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
PBY Catalina x 5
P-38J Lightning x 23
PB4Y Liberator x 20
B-24D Liberator x 25
B-24J Liberator x 83

Japanese aircraft losses
C5M Babs: 4 destroyed
E13A1 Jake: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 4 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
53 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Airbase hits 10
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 66

Day Air attack on Ulithi , at 55,67


Allied aircraft
PB4Y Liberator x 105
B-24J Liberator x 69


Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y Liberator: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
99 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 9
Airbase supply hits 10
Runway hits 68


SEAC:

After getting thrown out of Krung Thep and back across the river a few weeks ago, SEAC forces cross the river upstream from Krung Thep and now 9 divisions threaten an end run around Japanese defenses to cut off Bangkok. Only the IJA 104th Division stands in the way. SEAC bombers hit the 104th:

Day Air attack on 104th Division, at 30,40


Allied aircraft
Beaufighter VIC x 28
P-40N Warhawk x 23
B-25J Mitchell x 63


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
211 casualties reported
Guns lost 7

And again:

Day Air attack on 104th Division, at 30,40


Allied aircraft
Liberator VI x 9
Beaufighter Mk 21 x 58


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
186 casualties reported
Guns lost 4

The 104th Division attempts a desperate counterattack only to suffer heavy losses:

Ground combat at 30,40

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 17966 troops, 95 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 22529 troops, 173 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
910 casualties reported
Guns lost 11

Allied ground losses:
7 casualties reported

In Malaya, the Japanese try to slow the SEAC offensive by sending a surface TF into Victoria Point harbor to work over Allied shipping. Allied shipping retreats out of harms way but Allied bombers from Victoria Point and Tavoy make the IJN surface raiders pay the next day as a CL and 6 DDs are heavily damaged:

Day Air attack on TF at 24,40


Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 3
Liberator VI x 11
B-25J Mitchell x 9


Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 1 damaged
Liberator VI: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
CL Isuzu, Bomb hits 2

And again:

Day Air attack on TF at 24,40


Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 23
Liberator VI x 53
B-25J Mitchell x 26


Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 2 damaged
Liberator VI: 5 damaged
B-25J Mitchell: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
CL Isuzu, Bomb hits 9, on fire, heavy damage
DD Satsuki, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Akebono
DD Asagiri
DD Kamikaze
DD Makinami

And again:
Day Air attack on TF at 24,40


Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 3
Liberator VI x 34
B-25J Mitchell x 30


Allied aircraft losses
Liberator VI: 1 damaged
B-25J Mitchell: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
DD Akebono, Bomb hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
DD Asagiri, Bomb hits 1
DD Kamikaze, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Hamakaze, Bomb hits 3, on fire
DD Makinami, Bomb hits 1, on fire

And again:

Day Air attack on TF at 24,40


Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 9


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CL Isuzu, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x Blenheim IV bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Blenheim IV bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Blenheim IV bombing at 6000 feet

Both sides reinforce at Songkhia for the upcoming battle as the Allies have now massed 7 arty regiments and 6 armored regiments:

Ground combat at Songkhia

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 53724 troops, 488 guns, 959 vehicles

Defending force 51201 troops, 419 guns, 114 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
153 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

[spence]

It is too bad that naval bombardment was modelled upon a single bombardment by IJN BBs at Guadalcanal. I can't name any instance where the IJN actually conducted an assault landing upon a well fortified beach under cover of naval guns.
IJN landings hit essentially undefended or very weakly held coastline, suffering only the perils of the wind and seas in opposition. Almost by the same token CD effects seem to have been modelled on Wake's brief moment of glory (12/11/41) wherein the American defenders dinged up an IJN bombardment/invasion force which itself possessed little firepower and no direct air support.
Naval bombardment should have been modelled on the Allied methods wherein large numbers of ships engaged in suppressive fire and FO's called in direct fire by ships and a/c on particularly troublesome enemy positions. Correct me if I am wrong but in one of the hardest fought assault landings Tarawa's 8" guns were unable to inflict any harm on the invasion fleet itself. It's CD units knocked out lots of LTVs and landing craft but no large ships. The Japanese CD artillery positions were all but completely suppressed. Thus the Marines were able to reinforce their tenuous beachhead and eventually overcome the defense.

Since (probably) large amounts of code would have to be completely rewritten I guess there is no chance of seeing a better model for either situation.[:(]

[Capt. Harlock]

Correct me if I am wrong but in one of the hardest fought assault landings Tarawa's 8" guns were unable to inflict any harm on the invasion fleet itself. It's CD units knocked out lots of LTVs and landing craft but no large ships. The Japanese CD artillery positions were all but completely suppressed.

You are not wrong, but it was by no means a sure thing. One of the American BB's (possibly Maryland) managed to put an armor-piercing shell into the magazine serving all of the 8-inchers on that side of the island. Some historians consider it the luckiest bombardment shot of WWII.

[Belphegor]

more history from my perspective

I had no dedicated CD units on Woleai. Only the organic guns of the base forces. These were in supply, but definitely not at peak fighting trim because of the constant air attacks. I think the number of hits on the capital ships bombarding and then the number of hits on the actual invasion TF was reasonable (for this attack) as I did no lasting damage to the capital ships (paint scratches, a little minor damage to the upper works) and did a bit more to the invasion TF which can be assumed to be closer. I'd love to have done more damage than I did, but that wasn't the case. I was also hoping that a level 9 fort might hold out longer. Pounding or no pounding the troops were well supplied and protected. Mostly I was overwhelmed. I had a South Seas Bde, and two base forces only, so not enough fighting defence once the Allies landed.

[Bradley7735]

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

Correct me if I am wrong but in one of the hardest fought assault landings Tarawa's 8" guns were unable to inflict any harm on the invasion fleet itself. It's CD units knocked out lots of LTVs and landing craft but no large ships. The Japanese CD artillery positions were all but completely suppressed.

You are not wrong, but it was by no means a sure thing. One of the American BB's (possibly Maryland) managed to put an armor-piercing shell into the magazine serving all of the 8-inchers on that side of the island. Some historians consider it the luckiest bombardment shot of WWII.

IIRC, a ship put a shell directly into the muzzle of a large calibre gun during the Normandy landings. The resulting explosion blew up that gun and at least one more, but I think it was something like 4 in total. The guns were very large, and couldn't be seen from the sea. It was a very lucky shot. At least that's what I read in the book "D-Day" written by that guy who writes a lot of books. (helpful, aren't I?) He also wrote "Citizen Soldiers". I'm sure a few of you know the guy's name.

[Belphegor]

ASW patrols make good pilots. And sink subs... Today's feature shows the Taichu boys. They just keep getting better...

[racndoc]

Bradley...

I believe the author you are referring to is Stephen Ambrose.


SITUATION REPORT: 11-29-43


SEAC:

Led by the 3rd and 5th Indian Divisions, SEAC assaults the IJA 104th Division 60 miles east of Bangkok and forces it to retreat back into the city. The Allies are now in a position to cut off IJA forces in Bangkok and Krung Thep.

SEAC will lauch a huge deliberate attack at Songkhia tomorrow.