Sneer vs Raver , Banzaiiii!!!!

[Sneer]

06/07/42
bombing activity in kungchang area
over 200 sorties
300 chinase casualties
looks like in good periods I will be able to take out up to 500 casualties in Kungchang daily as enemy has no chance in resting troops
still over 200k troops there

[Sneer]

06/08/42
another 500 chinase out of action I should be able to attack them in a week time

[Sneer]

06/09/42
same story - 500 chinase down - need 1 more year to finish them [;)]
I'm a bit scared attacking so big stack
no matter they are chinase
no matter I 'm far superior in exp
no matter they are out of supply
I remember elimination of burmanese forces in similar circumstances
probably Raver's intention was to recreate such situation
No rush in China but it is pain to see enemy in this place so sth should be done
last 2 days were first for long that did not bring aditional supply in pool
250 bombers + 350 fighters in training can burn all surplases
pity - I was close to reaching pre-war levels of supply
Overall industry situation is excellent
almost all industry places are at full capacity and rest of them will be ready in 3 months
also almost all 42 year a/c factories are repaired so i should be ready to cover any war losses raver cause to me
I have a policy to build overcapacity of most important designs and later halt them when enough planes are in reserve

[Raverdave]

ORIGINAL: Sneer

I have a policy to build overcapacity of most important designs and later halt them when enough planes are in reserve

You never have enough planes.[:D]

[Sneer]

my zero production is halted in last 3 months your hurris and p40 can't shot them down

[Sneer]

I guess Raver's chinase troops at kungchang are starving at 0 supply as their numbers goes down faster than simply adding casualties from combat reports.
Looks like favourite conditions to create next few elite divisions

[Sneer]

6/17/42

It may be seen impossible but in last 20 days my bombers and artillery killed close to 15k chinase troops!

[Raverdave]

Yeah real easy to kill starving chinese troops...............lets see how you cope when you go up against my first string troops.[:D]

[Sneer]

during this weekend there will be a lot of blood flooding in kungchang.
All of my troops are almost on station

[Capt. Harlock]

It may be seen impossible but in last 20 days my bombers and artillery killed close to 15k chinase troops!

Too bad the Allies have an effectively unlimited supply of Chinese grunts!

[Sneer]

sth to show for readers
I wish I had bigger ships there
I used my APD - old DDs and TBs TF
moving unescorted conwoys is not good

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/20/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Darwin at 36,84

Japanese Ships
DD Kisaragi
DD Uzuki
DD Asakaze
DD Harukaze
DD Hatakaze
DD Yukaze
DD Tachikaze
DD Kuri
DD Tsuga
DD Hasu
DD Sanae
DD Manazuru
DD Hatsukari
DD Tomozuru
DD Kamo

Allied Ships
AK Empire Cato, Shell hits 2
AK Empire Pibroch, Shell hits 10, on fire, heavy damage
AK Empire Bell
AK Empire Heywood
AK Empire March, Shell hits 17, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
AK Empire Lionel
AK Empire Purcell
AK Empire Torrent
AK Empire Derwent
AK Empire Avocet, Shell hits 19, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AK Empire Strength
AK Empire Pennant
AK Empire Prince, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
AK Empire Webster
AK Empire Southey
AK Empire Tugela

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 56th Chinese Corps, at 47,26

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 14
Ki-15 Babs x 1

No Japanese losses

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 7000 feet
5 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 8th Chinese Corps, at 47,26

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 77
Ki-49 Helen x 46
Ki-15 Babs x 1

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
138 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
15 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
6 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
8 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
7 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
11 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
8 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
8 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
10 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
8 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
20 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
11 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 7000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 54th Chinese Corps, at 47,26

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 21
Ki-49 Helen x 22

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
34 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
6 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
6 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 87th Chinese Corps, at 47,26

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 30
Ki-49 Helen x 24

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
74 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
6 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
5 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
7 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
5 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
4 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
6 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 16th Chinese Corps, at 47,26

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 18
Ki-49 Helen x 19

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
77 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
4 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 16th Chinese Corps, at 47,26

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49 Helen x 15

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
28 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 27th Chinese Corps, at 47,26

Japanese aircraft
Ki-30 Ann x 24

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
20 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
24 x Ki-30 Ann bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 17th DAF Base Force, at 17,53

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48 Lily x 43

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
25 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
23 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 10000 feet
20 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 17th DAF Base Force, at 17,53

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 35
Ki-21 Sally x 26

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
77 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
11 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 47,26

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 202932 troops, 2528 guns, 23 vehicles

Defending force 187024 troops, 168 guns, 0 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
361 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Padang

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 4872 troops, 39 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 140 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 171 to 1 (fort level 2)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Padang base !!!



Allied ground losses:
503 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 47,26

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 136860 troops, 161 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 262439 troops, 2789 guns, 467 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
9 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

[Sneer]

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

It may be seen impossible but in last 20 days my bombers and artillery killed close to 15k chinase troops!

Too bad the Allies have an effectively unlimited supply of Chinese grunts!

I have no fear of hungry troops without ammo

[Raverdave]

China is a side show....the real battle will be North of Oz.

[Sneer]

supplies wwre probably for level bombers
looks like 9 of 16 are sunk

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/21/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Darwin at 36,84

Japanese Ships
CL Sendai, Shell hits 2
CL Naka
CL Nagara
CL Natori
CL Abukuma
DD Hamakaze
DD Wakaba
DD Yugure
DD Ariake
DD Yugiri
DD Asagao
DD Fuyo
DD Karukaya

Allied Ships
AK Empire Cato
AK Empire Bell, Shell hits 1
AK Empire Heywood
AK Empire Lionel, Shell hits 14, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
AK Empire Purcell, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
AK Empire Torrent
AK Empire Derwent, Shell hits 1, on fire
AK Empire Strength
AK Empire Pennant, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AK Empire Webster, Shell hits 11, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
AK Empire Southey, Shell hits 9, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
AK Empire Tugela

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Darwin at 36,84

Japanese Ships
CL Sendai
CL Naka
CL Nagara
CL Natori
CL Abukuma
DD Hamakaze
DD Wakaba
DD Yugure
DD Ariake
DD Yugiri
DD Asagao
DD Fuyo
DD Karukaya

Allied Ships
AK Empire Pibroch, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Benares , at 28,18

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 13
A6M3 Zero x 22
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 16

Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vb x 18
P-40B Tomahawk x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
A6M3 Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-Ib Oscar: 15 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire Vb: 5 destroyed, 1 damaged
P-40B Tomahawk: 9 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on San Jose , at 41,53

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 26
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 211

No Japanese losses

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 24

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
10 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
32 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
10 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
32 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
32 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
32 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
32 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
23 x A6M2 Zero bombing at 2000 feet
2 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
2 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
2 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
3 x A6M2 Zero bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 72nd Chinese Corps, at 47,26

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49 Helen x 14

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
19 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
14 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 69th Chinese Corps, at 47,26

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 25
Ki-15 Babs x 1

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
99 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
14 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 7000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 99th Chinese Corps, at 47,26

Japanese aircraft
Ki-30 Ann x 24

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
17 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
24 x Ki-30 Ann bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 99th Chinese Corps, at 47,26

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 12
Ki-15 Babs x 1

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
10 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
6 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 7000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 98,98

Japanese Ships
ML Niizaki
ML Takashima
ML Naryu
ML Nasami

Allied Ships
SS Triton


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 47,26

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 225300 troops, 2787 guns, 30 vehicles

Defending force 186162 troops, 160 guns, 0 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
425 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 47,26

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 136732 troops, 153 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 284624 troops, 3047 guns, 473 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
4 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Allied ground losses:
28 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

[Sneer]

quick view on production / stockpiled goods

[Sneer]

deleted

[Sneer]

and stockpiled goods + production info
Japan economy booms

[Sneer]

first assault on kunchang troops - as expected nothing real achieved
LCU combat is weird - losses acording to VP values are below 800 and troops are out of use for 4-5 days -
crazy - to be honest I think about bombing them out but there is advantage in this madness - lot of EXP is gained this way and after 4-5 attacks all of inf units will have 90+exp

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/22/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on San Jose , at 41,53

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 26
A6M3 Zero x 27
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 214

No Japanese losses

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 41

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
7 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
24 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
7 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
24 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
24 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
24 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
24 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
17 x A6M2 Zero bombing at 2000 feet
18 x A6M3 Zero bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
7 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
7 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
7 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
7 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
7 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
6 x A6M2 Zero bombing at 2000 feet
6 x A6M3 Zero bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
2 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
2 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
2 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
3 x A6M2 Zero bombing at 2000 feet
3 x A6M3 Zero bombing at 2000 feet
2 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
2 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
2 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
2 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 76th Chinese Corps, at 47,26

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 19
Ki-49 Helen x 18

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
29 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
4 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 8th Chinese Corps, at 47,26

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 27
Ki-49 Helen x 29

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
31 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
6 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
8 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
5 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
4 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
4 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
6 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
5 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 73rd Chinese Corps, at 47,26

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 36
Ki-49 Helen x 52

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
145 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
11 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
15 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
8 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
6 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
4 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
6 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
8 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
5 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
8 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 58th Chinese Corps, at 47,26

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 22
Ki-49 Helen x 29

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
76 casualties reported
Guns lost 3

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
4 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
6 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
6 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
6 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
4 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 5000 feet
5 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 99th Chinese Corps, at 47,26

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49 Helen x 15

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 47,26

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 281785 troops, 3066 guns, 473 vehicles

Defending force 185121 troops, 143 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 6 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
15653 casualties reported
Guns lost 374
Vehicles lost 27

Allied ground losses:
4148 casualties reported
Guns lost 59


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 47,26

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 113423 troops, 53 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 259177 troops, 2446 guns, 439 vehicles

[Mike Solli]

Geez. 14k naval shipyard points! I'd accelerate some ships.

[trollelite]

Your opponent is no match for you, that's for sure. If he knew to retreat his AVG and PI warhawk sqds to singapore and set his bomber's level to 1000 feet you would have a much harder battle... Most of japanese navy fighters in saigon are useless claudes, and oscar is simply no match for P-40B. With their poor 7.7mm MG army fighters can only pose little threat to British bombers....The demise of POW and poor Repulse is unavoidable, for they traded for 2 BB would be sunk in PH, but the destruction of Dutch sub fleet was just unthinkable...

Why he choose to run his ships wildly to the India Ocean? Can't understand this. By the time you could attack Karachi (with the support of fleet tanker) there would be a dozen of Hurricane (perhaps even spitfire) sqds to defend karachi, not mention the avg and other P40 sqds withdrawn from Malaya (if you succeed to capture it) ! Even Nagumo's carrier force would have a very hard battle in assualting such an hornet nest, surely you must suffering at least half of your bombers, even with all your zero escorting, and there are British FAA and its nasty, nasty swordfishes....

In malaya the city just above singapore is the schwerpunkt of the theater, In PI the clark field, and in Burma Mandaley, unfortunately he missed them all. Perhaps for him it's not too late yet?