AE Land and AI Issues [OUTDATED]

[Andy Mac]

N guerrillas or at momnet garrison requirement in PI Japanese would be silly to leave it ungarrisoned though - need to think about this

[JeffroK]

Andy,
 
Will the INA & BNA forces be shown??
 
[:)] For the BNA, they get a TOE change which also sees them change sides.
 
At least the INA had a couple of Divisions, I dont think the BNA got that far though, with a more succesful japanese player they may have got more recruits.

[Andy Mac]

INA are in I believe BNA no to minimal and impact and to hard to replicate the side switching thing

[spence]

N guerrillas or at momnet garrison requirement in PI Japanese would be silly to leave it ungarrisoned though - need to think about this

Agreed...it would be silly to leave PI ungarrisioned. But the Japanese Player is unlikely to do any "non-productive" thing that the game engine does not require him to do regardless of how practical considerations in RL might demand.

Perhaps a look at what the Japanese actually had involved in "pacification" in the PI at various times could act as a guide. PI ORBATS for the times following:
Summer 42?
Winter 43?
Summer 43?
Winter 44?

I don't know what they had or even if decent ORBATS for those times are available but if we could get a handle on this data then the answers regarding guerillas and garrisons might well become self-evident.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: spence

N guerrillas or at momnet garrison requirement in PI Japanese would be silly to leave it ungarrisoned though - need to think about this

Agreed...it would be silly to leave PI ungarrisioned. But the Japanese Player is unlikely to do any "non-productive" thing that the game engine does not require him to do regardless of how practical considerations in RL might demand.

Perhaps a look at what the Japanese actually had involved in "pacification" in the PI at various times could act as a guide. PI ORBATS for the times following:
Summer 42?
Winter 43?
Summer 43?
Winter 44?

I don't know what they had or even if decent ORBATS for those times are available but if we could get a handle on this data then the answers regarding guerillas and garrisons might well become self-evident.

Well,

I was able to track down the movements of nearly every brigade-sized or larger IJA unit between 1941-45. Most of the units located in the PI in the 1942-43 timeframe were garrison units with a TOE similar to certain Japanese garrison forces in China which were mainly occupied with anti-guerilla warfare.

But it seems that it was not deemed neccessary by the IJA to move 'real' combat formations to the PI before there any threat of an US invasion of the PI manifested itself in 1944.

K

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: spence

N guerrillas or at momnet garrison requirement in PI Japanese would be silly to leave it ungarrisoned though - need to think about this

Agreed...it would be silly to leave PI ungarrisioned. But the Japanese Player is unlikely to do any "non-productive" thing that the game engine does not require him to do regardless of how practical considerations in RL might demand.

Perhaps a look at what the Japanese actually had involved in "pacification" in the PI at various times could act as a guide. PI ORBATS for the times following:
Summer 42?
Winter 43?
Summer 43?
Winter 44?

I don't know what they had or even if decent ORBATS for those times are available but if we could get a handle on this data then the answers regarding guerillas and garrisons might well become self-evident.

Well,

I was able to track down the movements of nearly every brigade-sized or larger IJA unit between 1941-45. Most of the units located in the PI in the 1942-43 timeframe were garrison units with a TOE similar to certain Japanese garrison forces in China which were mainly occupied with anti-guerilla warfare.

But it seems that it was not deemed neccessary by the IJA to move 'real' combat formations to the PI before there any threat of an US invasion of the PI manifested itself in 1944.

K

In my current game with Moses (see AARs) I've kept a minimum of about 10 BF/Eng units in the PI the whole game. There is a "whole lotta building" that needs to get done in the P.I. and you sure can't do it all at the last minute!

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: spence



Agreed...it would be silly to leave PI ungarrisioned. But the Japanese Player is unlikely to do any "non-productive" thing that the game engine does not require him to do regardless of how practical considerations in RL might demand.

Perhaps a look at what the Japanese actually had involved in "pacification" in the PI at various times could act as a guide. PI ORBATS for the times following:
Summer 42?
Winter 43?
Summer 43?
Winter 44?

I don't know what they had or even if decent ORBATS for those times are available but if we could get a handle on this data then the answers regarding guerillas and garrisons might well become self-evident.

Well,

I was able to track down the movements of nearly every brigade-sized or larger IJA unit between 1941-45. Most of the units located in the PI in the 1942-43 timeframe were garrison units with a TOE similar to certain Japanese garrison forces in China which were mainly occupied with anti-guerilla warfare.

But it seems that it was not deemed neccessary by the IJA to move 'real' combat formations to the PI before there any threat of an US invasion of the PI manifested itself in 1944.

K

In my current game with Moses (see AARs) I've kept a minimum of about 10 BF/Eng units in the PI the whole game. There is a "whole lotta building" that needs to get done in the P.I. and you sure can't do it all at the last minute!

The IJA historically shipped many Construction Battalions to the PI somewhen before 1944. Seems that the Imperial HQ thought along the same lines.

[spence]

Doing a little bit of research into the PI guerilla question I've found pretty sparse information available on the web. The HUKS (forgot what the letters abbreviate but its an acronym for Philippine Communists Against the Japanese) are credited with approx 30000 active fighters and double that "passive" supporters. The US Army Historical Section speaks of a guerilla "92nd Division" on Leyte with 3200 odd men in Oct 44 (not HUKS). There were evidently many different groups (with some basically acting as bandits early on) but by late 42 the groups were merging and coming under a more military discipline.

It appears that the Filipino guerillas were offered a sort of amnesty in 43 by the Japanese around the time when the Japanese declared the PI "independent" which drew a sizeable number in from the countryside at that time. The PI "independent" government was however never held in high regard by most Filipinos because it was apparently composed mostly of the same upper class/landlord/overseers as had been running the PI before the war for their own aggrandizement (MacArthur apparently forbid any retribution against these folks for their collaboration after the war). Certainly as the situation "went South" for the Japanese many more Filipinos rallied around these guerilla units. Japanese control had slipped considerably by the time the US invaded and was confined for the most part to larger cities and bases. In the countryside the guerillas were running town and small city governments.

[Andy Mac]

Its an interesting topic but guerllias without a controlled base to spawn in would fall into the programming change category at this stage and therefore will not be accomodated.

We NEED as a team to get on with Bug fixing and making sure th efeatures we have are in and working as intended, AI, scenario building, VP/Balance testing/ OOB completion etc etc

The fact is we need to get what we have working and make sure it works right before we start tinkering with the code again

[bradfordkay]

I think that the earlier idea of adding a garrison requirement in the PI similar to that of China is the best way to represent the Filipino guerillas in WITP/AE. If it doesn't happen, oh well, but it does seem to be a good idea.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: spence

Will there be allied guerilla forces in the DEI and Phillipines? Judging from what I read above, it seems that they might be to small of a unit. My arguement would be that although small they did tie down large numbers of troops in garrisons and pacification efforts.

I doubt the DEI would warrant any anti-Japanese guerilla units (though I guess some Ozzies operated as such on Timor and/or Dutch New Guinea for an extended time). But the Philippines certainly had a pretty active anti-Japanese guerilla movement that provided good intel on Japanese dispositions and imposed a drain on Japanese resources. I

Actually - DEI had two kinds of resistence forces of some significance - eventually. It was disconcerting trying to figure out how to handle them - until I correlated "Anti-Dutch" forces (virtually all on Java) meant de facto Japanese allied - while the "anti central" forces (virtually all communist and NOT on Java) meant de facto Allied allied (if you understand my duplication). The "anti Dutch" forces were of fair size - brigades - and they never did leave the field until the Dutch granted independence - so they pretty much should be recognized. One of their leaders - a Gen Nasution - about which there is an English language biography - was probably a great captain. And the IJA commander in the area did cooperate effectively - which was not generally the case. Since they arrive on Java after Japan owns the place, arrival is not a problem. The communist guerillas are smaller (battalion) sized formations, and if the appear at an occupied base, the will instead appear somewhere else (I make it be Chunking). But the Japanse can not afford to tie down units just to surpress all of these.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

N guerrillas or at momnet garrison requirement in PI Japanese would be silly to leave it ungarrisoned though - need to think about this

In PI - as in every other major place - Japan organized local defense units. One - armed only with spears - can safely be ignored. I have not figured out how to deal with the others yet - but the Japanese had some genuine support - including some senior support - including the man who eventually became President and delcared war on the USA. He had been pro Japanese - and winning elections for it - his whole life. Another - Chief Justice of the Supreme Court - was ironically executed by the Japanese - because (it is alleged, not proven) it was considered to be "traitorous" to serve a colonial power. But you don't get high level support without some other lower level stuff - and most Filipinos of the period say there were numbers of Japanese informants and sympathizers. [I am balikbayan - it does not translate - but I enter the Philippines as something different from an alien - and go there often - because for one thing my wife and child have relatives there. My father in law was ethnic Chinese - and there is a monument to him in their village - he was a WWII war hero for guiding US forces in 1944/5. My mother in law was from an obscure Filipino mountain tribe - she never learned Tagalog, Spanish, English or even Ilicano - the regional dialect: instead she spoke Igorot. I visited all the 50th anniversary battle site celebrations, got some lost maps made by soldiers from Fort John Hay in 1942, and otherwise have studied the history of the Philippine Army and US-Filippine operations.] The Japanese managed to make themselves pretty generally unpopular, but they started with considerable support, and never did lose all of it. This isn't how the story is usually told - but times are changing: Gen Yamashita was exhonorated on the front page of the Manila Times on the 50th anniversary of his execution. It is no longer fashionable to lump everyone and everything into one category.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Andy,

Will the INA & BNA forces be shown??

[:)] For the BNA, they get a TOE change which also sees them change sides.

At least the INA had a couple of Divisions, I dont think the BNA got that far though, with a more succesful japanese player they may have got more recruits.

INA is correctly shown in CHS (and therefor in RHS) - at 5 brigades. The PROPOSAL to form up divisions was vetoed by IJA.

There were technically two different INAs! One got disbanded when the IJA officer responsible fell into disfavor.

BNA was pretty small - and at heart it was apparently 42 British trained officers. And it did indeed change sides - twice!
Apparently it was two small "regiments" of CW troops which more or less defected as a body. After independence these people - plus a few politicians - became rulers of Burma - and their regime is still in power.

[JeffroK]

Not quite Sid, Aung San was the leader, and his daughter is locked away by the cuurent Junta

[el cid again]

What then is the "club of 42"??

[Andy Mac]

Simple answer Burmaes Army is not in to hard to get right the fact that a large part of them were simply dacoits picking on who ever was in retreat doesnt help.

Lushai Bde on allied side is about the only formation made up of Burmese troops.

Re PI at present we have no garrison requirement because a garrison requirement is not one sided  so if I give Manila a garrison requirement - both sides would need to meet it.

Random guerilla formations do not exist 1. because they need a base to spawn in or 2. become hardcoded and that buggers up modders and anyway the coding is closed !!!!

[spence]

I would guess that the map has been modified somewhat in the Manila area. The original War Plan for the US in the PI had the Army pulling back into Bataan because Manila was essentially indefensible (and the USA had no inclination towards fighting/dying to the last man in a pile of rubble). Has the changed scale of the map made Manila any less attractive as a defensive position for the Americans or is it essentially the same as before where the Allied Player is inclined to make his PI defense in the city rather than Bataan/Corregidor (which was tactically more defensible and still denied use of the city/port to the Japanese)?

Seems kinda weird that the Allied Player is forced to divide his forces in the face of the overwhelming Japanese attack of the early months. It also might allow a garrison requirement to be put in place for the city. Just like IRL the IJA will want to get into the city after the USA evacuates it to prevent damage to the facilities (didn't most of the IJA forces on Luzon head for Manila rather than launch an immediate attack on Bataan?).

[Andy Mac]

Good question there are now 2 types of city terrain with different bonuses to defence and the ability to control more supply will help here as well so I expect it to be 50:50 where the allies defend.

Manila will have lower forts but better terrain but not decisively better as in stock - bataan has higher forts but not 'invincible forts' caused by terrain.

If I was allies I would probably fight it out on Bataan now in the new map but it would be a close run decisison and would depend on what the Japanese did.

Andy

[spence]

But apparently the CD defenses controlling Manila Bay are still split between the Bataan hex and the Manile hex?

[witpqs]

I thought a major (real life) problem with defending in Bataan instead of manila was the mountain of supplies, etc. in Manila?